[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Skullchukka]

Battler theory;

Spoiler for Theory:

I believe it is said that Kyrie and Rudolf knew each other before. So, here goes my theory.

Real Ushiromiya Battler (son of Asumu) died at birth (or some short time later), and the reason was Asumu, she was not healthy to have a child, and she could never deliver any again. Rudolf somehow knew the inheritance would never be given to the siblings, and he wanted his child to be the successor, but his wife turned to be infertile.

Thus, he had a relationship with Kyrie and Ushiromiya Battler was born from Kyrie. He was immediately given to Asumu, and thus believed Asumu and Rudolf was his parent, and Kyrie was told a lie that his son could not live. So this is why she is convinced that her child actually died. The death of real Ushiromiya Battler, son of Asumu might not be known to Kyrie at all, so she does not suspect anything.

Somehow, this whole plot gets discovered, for that sake; Rudolf has to eliminate everyone who poses a threat to his plans. He kills people involved, including Asumu. This might be the place where Battler has sinned, voluntarily or involuntarily. This is what Beato means with "You were involved in a plot by Rudolf having something to do with distribution of the inheritance..."

After that, Battler goes mentally unstable, and this is why he never has hardly any memory of 6 years ago. Some events lead up him returning back to Ushiromiya family.

The reason why "Because of your sin, people die." might be something related with an unknown relative of Asumu, knowing about their previous plot of killing everybody related to inheritance, and decides to get revenge on them; thus comitting Rokkenjima Mass Murder.

I haven't re-read the chapters for this theory, it's something that just popped.

[Kaiba]

@Skullchukka: Well, your theory works, as we know very, very little about Battler's sin so really you can throw in a lot of random stuff and it'll work. How does your theory relate to the murders? Do you think Rudolf or this unknown relative is responsible for the murders?

[Skullchukka]

It could be the unknown relative of Asumu, having somehow escaped Rudolf's murder-spree, or faked his/her death. That person might as well be the culprit.

Anyone remembers the "business talk" Rudolf and Kyrie make? What was that about?

[rogerpepitone]

@Skullchukka: Apparent sequence of events:
1) Kyrie and Asumu get pregnant.
2) Asumu realizes she is pregnant and announces it.
3) Rudolf gets engaged to Asumu.
4) Asumu delivers; Kyrie's child is stillborn.

In any case, Kyrie and Rudolf had a relationship well before he met Asumu.

[Marion]

Which business talk? If you mean the one in EP 1 after Rudolf leaves telling them he's going to die and she follows him then we don't see that.

But according to the game TIPs Kyrie was business partners with Rudolf before Asumu died and Battler said she was a family friend before marrying Rudolf. And in EP 4 it's implied that Battler met Ange around the time Kyrie was reintroduced to him as his new mother, so Kyrie probably gave birth (to Ange) before Asumu died.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

It could be the unknown relative of Asumu, having somehow escaped Rudolf's murder-spree, or faked his/her death. That person might as well be the culprit.

Anyone remembers the "business talk" Rudolf and Kyrie make? What was that about?

Since there's no unknown person X, the only way that's even remotely possible is if one of the persons on the island is the relative of Asumu. The only three people I can think of that would possibly work for would be Kanon, Shannon, and Gohda.

Now that I think about it, that scenario sounds very similar to one of the Ellery Queen mysteries, where a young man was attacked by his two crewman when he went sailing, vowed revenge, and thus faked amnesia and became the servant of one of the men and managed to persuade him into killing the other man

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by ijriims

3. If Battler knew Jessica was Asumu's daughter, why he was so surprised to know he was not Asumu's son?

Maybe he really didn't know about this. It's possible that he revealed everything indirectly, or he did something very minor which revealed this "secret".

[Dlanor A. Knox]

Didnt Rudolf decied to marry Asumu because she had a "living child" and Kyrie a "still born"?
I think the baby swapping is Asumu's job and not Rudolfs.

another reason why I believe that Battler is Kyrie's son is because of Ange, they have (almost) the same hair color and eye color 0.0

that can't be coincidence!

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Metaler

Maybe he really didn't know about this. It's possible that he revealed everything indirectly, or he did something very minor which revealed this "secret".

That's correct, the idea was that he did something he didn't realize the significance of, but led other people to learn the secret. Maybe for one example he was playing around in some forbidden area which led to some documents being discovered.

Originally Posted by imaginari

What about Kumasawa not being a murderer in Ep 1? And was Battler quite far away enough for her to look a quarter of her age during the balcony speech? And if these "factions" are killing each other, well, I have always had trouble with the idea of multiple people planning mass murder simultanteously and independent from each other. (Although, to be fair, the killings are unlikely enough that something implausible has to be involved.)

According to the concept, Kumasawa did not originally intend to hurt anyone, so her not being a murderer wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Although if she set up the time-delay mechanism that would probably technically make her a murderer (if you kill someone by accident after you are already dead, does that mean you were a murderer?) but if I want to avoid questionable red truths (I do) I can say that she had someone else set up the mechanism for her because she didn't have the know-how, or maybe Kinzo even had it planned ahead of time and Kumasawa knew about it.

As for the balcony speech, that doesn't have to be Kumasawa. She doesn't have to be every Beatrice, just the one with that specific handwriting.

Originally Posted by ijriims

Spoiler for To save space:

Something I don't understand:

1. Why Ange was spared? All the inheritance would go to her if all people on Rokkenjima died. Why wrote the letters-in-the-bottle to say none of them survived if Kumasawa planned not to kill all the people on the island. The motive of Kumasawa was not clear from your description.

2. What did Rudolf gain in return of giving Asumu's daughter to Krauss? And then they took Kyrie's son and raise him like their own? (Kyrie seemed to never know that Battler was her son, and Rudolf wanted to tell this to Kyrie and Battler in EP1)

3. If Battler knew Jessica was Asumu's daughter, why he was so surprised to know he was not Asumu's son?

4. Who killed Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji in EP1(Kanon? if so, who attacked Kanon and why he would want to kill the threes and who told Maria to sing the song then?)? Who killed Kumasawa in EP2? Who wrote the pin on the door and why in EP3? Who killed Kumasawa and Godha in EP4?

5. Does it mean Virgilia and Beatrice were the same person? But there were two signiture on Maria's grimoire.


I suppose according to your theory, Eva and Hideyoshi murdered the six in EP1, then Kumasawa ordered Kanon to kill the two for the second twilight, but the following was not clear.

In EP2, Kumasawa ordered Shannon to impose as suit-Beatrice, Rosa was spared. Then somehow someone managed to kill Jessica and hide Kanon's body. The following was unclear.

In Ep3, Eva and Hideyoshi discovered Kumasawa's plan and worked with Rosa to kill all the servants. Then Eva and Rosa had a quarrel over the gold and she unintentionally murdered Rosa and killed Maria out of fear. The rest could be explained by Eva's doing but who killed George was not clear. So was the pin on the door.

In EP4, Kumasawa managed to persuade Krauss and Kyrie's help and killed Rosa, Hideyoshi, Eva and Rudolf? The rest was unclear. But I suppose it was Jessica who imposed Beatrice in the end for your theory.

As I said I don't really feel like writing out the details for the individual events yet.

But there are a few things I can clarify:

1. Kumasawa's intent was to make it seem like the Ushiromiya family disappeared. The letters in the bottle are just a part of the illusion. If we are making these sorts of theories, we are assuming the bottle's contents are false anyway. In terms of a motive, the family was a mess, stacked in debt and an ever uglier fight over inheritance. This way the family can clear their dishonor and try to start over.

2. Krauss, Asumu, Kyrie, and Rudolf could have come to an agreement in some fashion, friendly or otherwise. It's also possible that Rudolf didn't/doesn't even know. Kinzo might also have been involved, although if the rumors of his past are true he must not view Rudolf's habits too harshly.

3. See above, the idea would be that he didn't know.

5. Beatrice and Virgilia could actually be the same person. That said, the Virgilia who signed Maria's diary doesn't have to be Kumasawa. Kumasawa could be "Beatrice" here, and someone else could be the predecessor Beatrice.

[ijriims]

Quite a good theory I have to say.

Just that it contradicts the hint that Virgilia is Kumasawa.

But how could the family start over? Can Kumasawa provide new identities to the whole family after their disappearance? And why set up the time-delay mechanism if she did not plan anyone's death, or why did she not tell the family members about the mechanism if Kinzo made it?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

In any case, Kyrie and Rudolf had a relationship well before he met Asumu.

How do you know that? As far as I know it was never stated when Rudolf met Asumu and Kyrie.

Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox

Didnt Rudolf decied to marry Asumu because she had a "living child" and Kyrie a "still born"?
I think the baby swapping is Asumu's job and not Rudolfs.

another reason why I believe that Battler is Kyrie's son is because of Ange, they have (almost) the same hair color and eye color 0.0

that can't be coincidence!

They do not have the same eye color in the novel. Also all the 4 adult siblings have different hair colors. And Juuza has the same hair color of Kasumi and Kyrie.

The fact that Battler and Ange have the same hair color is probably because Ryukishi wanted to make it so it would be apparent that the mysteious girl was Battler's sister just by looking at her.

[Kamar]

As I just noted in the anime-only thread, I'm about 99% sure that hair colors and such are a bad thing to make any judgments based on, thanks to Battler's comment early on that suggested Beatrice was clearly recognizable as looking absolutely nothing like the Ushiromiya's thanks to her blond hair and foreign features-which would be untrue if Jessica were really a blond, and not just presented that way.

Anime and VN characters always have unusually colored hair, often contradicting what they looked like in manga/text form. There is at least a little evidence to suggest this is the case in Umineko too, and that everyone actually has normal Japanese coloration, despite how they are presented.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Don't want to interrupt the current flow of discussion, but I posted this on the EP3 thread based on the discussion there, which really doesn't belong there since it involves EP3 spoilers.

-----------

Okay seriously Workworkwork, give it a rest. Until you have proof that Rosa did in fact buy Sakutaro, then stop running your mouth. Can we prove that she didn't? No, it's a devil's proof, both sides have nothing to show for their claims. However, all you seem to do is look as hard as you can for the negative side of things just to support your own theories. I really wonder why you even participate in the community sometimes when it seems like you only disagree with everyone else's thoughts and stick relentlessly to your own guns. In which case, why don't you just enjoy Umineko on your own? If you have all the answers which it seems like you do, then you shouldn't need us, and to come here just to argue against everyone else just makes you a jerk. Come off your high horse. If you want to debate that's fine, but if you're insisting on flaming about things you don't have any proof for either then I think I speak for many of us when I say we'd be happier if you just didn't post at all.

Everyone has their own opinions, and this especially is the kind of series where almost every point of discussion revolves around conjecture and theories. Kindly stop trying to push your own onto everyone else. You hate Rosa, we get it. You hate the Anime, we get it. You want to complain and express your opinions, well, so do we, and I'd be a hypocrite to say I haven't had my fair share of ranting and disagreement with some of the other notions on this forum. But I'm also not vehemently arguing until I'm blue in the face just to be a dick. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I'm getting pretty fed up with your attitude. I have nothing against your opinions and I even agree with many of them, but it's the way in which you present them that's just rude and uncalled for. Please have a little more respect for everyone else and stop trying to force your points when you're reaching for reasoning just as much as everyone else.

We can't prove Rosa made Sakutaro any more than you can prove that she didn't. We're at an impasse. Just drop it because saying anything more about your theory is just flaming, it's not adding anything new and constructive to the discussion, and it's only serving to piss people off. If that entertains you, then quite frankly you're the epitome of several concepts I'd rather refrain from saying for fear of rule violation. I'd like to think you're not really getting your kicks out of pissing everyone off around here, and it's just a matter of conflicting opinions, in which case please, try to present your theories and arguments with a bit more class in the future.

That's all I have to say, if an argument breaks out here after this post I'm not getting involved. I just had to speak my mind.

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture

Don't want to interrupt the current flow of discussion, but I posted this on the EP3 thread based on the discussion there, which really doesn't belong there since it involves EP3 spoilers.

-----------

Okay seriously Workworkwork, give it a rest. Until you have proof that Rosa did in fact buy Sakutaro, then stop running your mouth. Can we prove that she didn't? No, it's a devil's proof, both sides have nothing to show for their claims. However, all you seem to do is look as hard as you can for the negative side of things just to support your own theories. I really wonder why you even participate in the community sometimes when it seems like you only disagree with everyone else's thoughts and stick relentlessly to your own guns. In which case, why don't you just enjoy Umineko on your own? If you have all the answers which it seems like you do, then you shouldn't need us, and to come here just to argue against everyone else just makes you a jerk. Come off your high horse. If you want to debate that's fine, but if you're insisting on flaming about things you don't have any proof for either then I think I speak for many of us when I say we'd be happier if you just didn't post at all.

Everyone has their own opinions, and this especially is the kind of series where almost every point of discussion revolves around conjecture and theories. Kindly stop trying to push your own onto everyone else. You hate Rosa, we get it. You hate the Anime, we get it. You want to complain and express your opinions, well, so do we, and I'd be a hypocrite to say I haven't had my fair share of ranting and disagreement with some of the other notions on this forum. But I'm also not vehemently arguing until I'm blue in the face just to be a dick. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I'm getting pretty fed up with your attitude. I have nothing against your opinions and I even agree with many of them, but it's the way in which you present them that's just rude and uncalled for. Please have a little more respect for everyone else and stop trying to force your points when you're reaching for reasoning just as much as everyone else.

We can't prove Rosa made Sakutaro any more than you can prove that she didn't. We're at an impasse. Just drop it because saying anything more about your theory is just flaming, it's not adding anything new and constructive to the discussion, and it's only serving to piss people off. If that entertains you, then quite frankly you're the epitome of several concepts I'd rather refrain from saying for fear of rule violation. I'd like to think you're not really getting your kicks out of pissing everyone off around here, and it's just a matter of conflicting opinions, in which case please, try to present your theories and arguments with a bit more class in the future.

That's all I have to say, if an argument breaks out here after this post I'm not getting involved. I just had to speak my mind.

Big wall of text there. anywho there was proof Rosa made Sakutaro. I can't exactly quote it in read but it goes something like this: Sakutaro was made for Maria by Rosa, the only one in the world!

Continuing with the flows of arguements, does anyone understand these letters sent to Kumasawa and Nanjo? I'm quite confused with that. What clue does it show for the mystery?

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture

Don't want to interrupt the current flow of discussion, but I posted this on the EP3 thread based on the discussion there, which really doesn't belong there since it involves EP3 spoilers.

-----------

Okay seriously Workworkwork, give it a rest. Until you have proof that Rosa did in fact buy Sakutaro, then stop running your mouth. Can we prove that she didn't? No, it's a devil's proof, both sides have nothing to show for their claims. However, all you seem to do is look as hard as you can for the negative side of things just to support your own theories. I really wonder why you even participate in the community sometimes when it seems like you only disagree with everyone else's thoughts and stick relentlessly to your own guns. In which case, why don't you just enjoy Umineko on your own? If you have all the answers which it seems like you do, then you shouldn't need us, and to come here just to argue against everyone else just makes you a jerk. Come off your high horse. If you want to debate that's fine, but if you're insisting on flaming about things you don't have any proof for either then I think I speak for many of us when I say we'd be happier if you just didn't post at all.

Everyone has their own opinions, and this especially is the kind of series where almost every point of discussion revolves around conjecture and theories. Kindly stop trying to push your own onto everyone else. You hate Rosa, we get it. You hate the Anime, we get it. You want to complain and express your opinions, well, so do we, and I'd be a hypocrite to say I haven't had my fair share of ranting and disagreement with some of the other notions on this forum. But I'm also not vehemently arguing until I'm blue in the face just to be a dick. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I'm getting pretty fed up with your attitude. I have nothing against your opinions and I even agree with many of them, but it's the way in which you present them that's just rude and uncalled for. Please have a little more respect for everyone else and stop trying to force your points when you're reaching for reasoning just as much as everyone else.

We can't prove Rosa made Sakutaro any more than you can prove that she didn't. We're at an impasse. Just drop it because saying anything more about your theory is just flaming, it's not adding anything new and constructive to the discussion, and it's only serving to piss people off. If that entertains you, then quite frankly you're the epitome of several concepts I'd rather refrain from saying for fear of rule violation. I'd like to think you're not really getting your kicks out of pissing everyone off around here, and it's just a matter of conflicting opinions, in which case please, try to present your theories and arguments with a bit more class in the future.

That's all I have to say, if an argument breaks out here after this post I'm not getting involved. I just had to speak my mind.

I have to agree with this.
Except, like Ronove said, there's red text saying that Rosa did make Sakutaro for Maria and that he's the only one in the world.
Somebody already told that to Workworkwork not so long ago though, so I'm guessing that he's just trying to irk somebody. ^^;

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Big wall of text there. anywho there was proof Rosa made Sakutaro. I can't exactly quote it in read but it goes something like this: Sakutaro was made for Maria by Rosa, the only one in the world!

Continuing with the flows of arguements, does anyone understand these letters sent to Kumasawa and Nanjo? I'm quite confused with that. What clue does it show for the mystery?

Ange also received one, although I suppose it was originally sent to Battler, since it's possible that the culprit never expected Battler to show up at Rokkenjima.
Anyway, I guess the letters show that someone prepared a bank account for some of the families of the victims. I just don't understand why the letter was sent to an unexistent address. To protect it's contents? o_o'

[Tjfarmer]

Wasn't it sent to a fake address, so it would take longer for the letter to "return" to the families.

[Metaler]

I guess... So the relatives would receive the letter without the knowledge of the people on Rokkenjima.

[Kurizu204]

I always thought that the "Sakutaro was made for Maria by Rosa, the only one in the world!" red text truthfully meant that of all the stuffed animals made from the same pattern, the one named Sakutaro which was made by Rosa, is the only one in the world with that name and made by Rosa for Maria.

Rephrased:

"There exist Sakutaro and the lion plushies at the boat captains house, and of all of those only the one named Sakutaro was made specially by Rosa for Maria."

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Big wall of text there. anywho there was proof Rosa made Sakutaro. I can't exactly quote it in read but it goes something like this: Sakutaro was made for Maria by Rosa, the only one in the world!

Not quite. The red goes That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday and in the entire world, the only
Note that she doesn't say in red that there's only one Sakutarou, a key difference between yours and what's truly said. Either way, it's clear Rosa made Sakutarou, but Work is too determined with blind Rosa hate to see reason.