noitaminA anime block discussion

[vaden]

Originally Posted by Dextro

It also looks like the first press will be coming bundled with a BluRay that contains the OP/ED videos for the songs which is nice*. That means folks can get the best parts of guilty crown

It also looks like it'll be 3 disks total with the 3rd disk containing the TV sized versions.

*at least that's what a certain retailer says

Yeah, that's correct. It's mentioned on the official page as well.

[SeijiSensei]

I was wondering why there was only one show scheduled for Spring, 2015, on the Wikipedia page for noitaminA until I read this footnote:

Starting April 2015, noitaminA's timeslot will be reduced from an hour-long to half an hour. There will only be one anime shown per season in the block. The cause of the timeslot-reducing is because of 5 noitaminA-produced anime films to be shown in the same year. It is still unknown whether the timeslot will be reverted back to its hour-long run in 2016.

Does anyone know what these films might be? Theatrical versions of prior shows or new material?

[karice67]

There's the Psycho-Pass movie, which came out on Jan 9.

But the three films are of three Project Itoh novels: Genocidal Organ and Harmony, and the Empire of Corpses, if I'm not mistaken.

[vaden]

Kokoro ga Sakebitagatterunda is the last one.

[MisaoFan]

I heard recently that the producer is letting the programming block's anime to go back to the 30-minute timeslot format, since I thought it could have been extended to 90-minute block at first until I was proven wrong.

Sadly, in my knowledge, my most hyped anime of this year, Kotetsujou no Cabaneli will probably be pushed back to Fall along with Seraph of the End's second season and Empire of Corpses movie. At this rate, I'm seriously expecting this to have 11-12 episodes instead of 2-cour and if the story and casting seems way too large and ambitious to participate in such meager format considering the staff (Araki working on Attack on Titan's second season next year added further insult to injury), it's not going to not end up being a large waste of potential.

[MisaoFan]

Interview (in Japanese text) about producer Koji Yamamoto's eventual retirement, found it on noitaminA's official twitter (that I visit regularly):
http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2015/12/06/071/

[karice67]

This is almost five years late now--as the interview appeared in the June 2011 edition of CUT, Japan's equivalent of Empire magazine--so I'm not sure if anyone is still interested...or keeping an eye on this thread, for that matter.

But here's noitaminA producer Yamamoto Koji on the change that happened to the block in 2011. I.e. it's an extension of the discussion that went on back here.

Personally, I am glad that noitaminA has continued to survive, and it's interesting to see them turn to films as the next step in the brand's evolution.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by karice67

This is almost five years late now--as the interview appeared in the June 2011 edition of CUT, Japan's equivalent of Empire magazine--so I'm not sure if anyone is still interested...or keeping an eye on this thread, for that matter.

But here's noitaminA producer Yamamoto Koji on the change that happened to the block in 2011. I.e. it's an extension of the discussion that went on back here.

Personally, I am glad that noitaminA has continued to survive, and it's interesting to see them turn to films as the next step in the brand's evolution.

Thanks for that translation. It's always nice to get those interviews since I can't read japanese. It gives a nice insight into the people who make these shows we like.

There's one particular bit in the text that drew my attention:

There a sense that this special evolution is a classic development in Japan’s anime industry, but personally, what I really don’t understand is how we’ve come to the state where we have a few works that do well, and then everything else in the industry is basically a failure. 0/100 is something that would never have happened in the past. Even with ratings, even though there are differences, it was never to such an extreme, right? But the home video market is gradually approaching that: the industry is increasingly comprised of works that all otaku buy and works that no one buys. The different isn’t even on a scale of 10 anymore. There are shows that sell just 500 disks, whilst others sell 50,000—that’s 100 times more. But the cost of production is the same, broadly speaking, and there isn’t really that much of a difference in viewer ratings or viewing numbers. As a business, however, this situation of a 100 times difference has come into being, and everyone is fighting for that Madoka-like hit without knowing what how we will all end up. But I don’t think it will stop.

This is something that I'm sure plenty of others around these forums have noticed either consciously or subconsciously (at least the older denizens I reckon): the type of shows that get made have changed. Ratings stopped being even remotely important and now disk sales are everything that matters and this as brought on an unprecedented amount of risk aversion.

For every Madoka Magicka there are hundreds of light novel adaptations with full sentences for a title and this, for me, has reduced my interest in the medium. I would really like to figure out why this happened but I don't know the japanese market enough to draw proper conclusions. I'm betting that the growth in time-shifted viewing triggered the change with advertising prices declining due to growing ineffectiveness, same thing as the west. Any thoughts?

[Marcus H.]

And yet, there are titles of a specific concept that can sell hard and titles of a similar concept that get the bomb (Madoka Magica and Genei wo Kakeru Taiyou come to mind). I have noticed the extreme in disc sales, but that was a few years ago. This year? I'm not seeing that. I felt that a lot more titles ended up with 1k sales, and some of them are the kind of shows you'd expect to sell 3k.

It's still tough to gauge how a show can sell high. Sometimes, it's just luck, sometimes it's being at the right place at the right time. There are also much more factors to consider. Japanese interest rates, the Chinese economic slowdown, as well as the sentiment of Japanese viewers over certain anime concepts... they all change up which anime would sell great or not.

Osomatsu-kun is something that kinda rekindles the sentiment for anime, but it alone can't support the current situation of the industry. Unfortunately, it's hard to guess which series is a sales monster waiting to awaken.

[IceHism]

She’s[okada] pretty much the ideal screenwriter

Okada Mari haters BTFO.

Interesting to see that directors and script writers are pretty much pawns to the planning and design committee most of the time.

Of course you will continue to rely on DVD sales when digital is becoming the best platform of distribution and your country doesn't adapt. Also stop airing all your animes near or past midnight.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Dextro

This is something that I'm sure plenty of others around these forums have noticed either consciously or subconsciously (at least the older denizens I reckon): the type of shows that get made have changed. Ratings stopped being even remotely important and now disk sales are everything that matters and this as brought on an unprecedented amount of risk aversion.

For every Madoka Magicka there are hundreds of light novel adaptations with full sentences for a title and this, for me, has reduced my interest in the medium. I would really like to figure out why this happened but I don't know the japanese market enough to draw proper conclusions. I'm betting that the growth in time-shifted viewing triggered the change with advertising prices declining due to growing ineffectiveness, same thing as the west. Any thoughts?

I'm actually loathe to say things like this unless there actually is research about it. How are we defining the change? Is it in the art, or in the tone and style?

For example, in terms of the more serious, 'dark' types of series, we've had shows like Psycho-Pass, Terror in Resonance and Gangsta. recently. Attack on Titan qualifies too, I would think.

In terms of more serious adult dramas, we've had Rakugo Shinju, Death Parade, Parasyte etc.

I feel that there's something for every genre that I can remember. However, since there are sooo many anime being brought over to the West now, perhaps what we're seeing is the full spectrum rather than just what certain people thought we'd like?

Not that I'm saying that's actually what happened--there's a crazy amount of anime being made now, so perhaps ratios have changed a bit as well. But there's lots of ways to cut the data, and speaking for myself, I don't really have the time or the inclination to do it...

Originally Posted by IceHism

Okada Mari haters BTFO.

To be honest, I think most of them will just ignore this and keep hating on her, frustrating as it is for people who prefer to discuss the actual content of the shows she works on.

Originally Posted by IceHism

Interesting to see that directors and script writers are pretty much pawns to the planning and design committee most of the time.

Well, for what it's worth, most of the interviews I've read suggest that they generally understand the constraints and work together to make the best products they can make within them. There's also a sense that people have to pay their dues for a while before they get to the point where they might have a bit more creative control. But that's the same for any profession, really.

Originally Posted by IceHism

Of course you will continue to rely on DVD sales when digital is becoming the best platform of distribution and your country doesn't adapt. Also stop airing all your animes near or past midnight.

That said, I would love digital distribution, especially of frigging magazines and guidebooks, so that I don't keep having to pay hell for postage or scan all the interview pages. Though being able to buy digital copies of my favourite series and all their video/audio extras would be fantastic, too.

[DragoonKain3]

Thanks for the interview translation karice.

Just a recap though, what was the reason for them reverting back to a 30 episode segment nowadays? It's interesting that he was adamant keeping the hour long block 5 years ago, but since last year they reverted to half an hour. I remember there was a discussion about it, maybe something about focusing on movies? Now that's the next thought process I would love to hear about from the man himself.

Originally Posted by IceHism

Okada Mari haters BTFO.

LOL. I personally love her (I don't think you'd find a bigger Okadafag in this forum than me XD), but she is still human. M3 was a financial disaster last I heard, and the Okada Gundam only selling 10k units is a bit weak compared to SEED and 00 (though to be fair Gundam TV hasn't broken 10k in at least 5 years).

What's interesting though is that he made this claim on the month that AnoHana started airing, and shortly just after seeing Fractale/Wandering Son released to dismal sales. Like at first I thought, "Eh, he was just saying that, going along with AnoHana's blockbuster success" only to review that the interview published on June. So yeah, I'm glad his faith on Okada was rewarded, even though her Noitamina track record then was 0 for 2.

Man, this talk of Macross Frontier and Okada in the same interview just rekindled an old longing of mine. Sure there's an Okada Gundam, but melodramatic love triangles within the backdrop of a space opera would've made a great Okada Macross. :'(

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by karice67

I'm actually loathe to say things like this unless there actually is research about it. How are we defining the change? Is it in the art, or in the tone and style?

For example, in terms of the more serious, 'dark' types of series, we've had shows like Psycho-Pass, Terror in Resonance and Gangsta. recently. Attack on Titan qualifies too, I would think.

In terms of more serious adult dramas, we've had Rakugo Shinju, Death Parade, Parasyte etc.

I feel that there's something for every genre that I can remember. However, since there are sooo many anime being brought over to the West now, perhaps what we're seeing is the full spectrum rather than just what certain people thought we'd like?

Not that I'm saying that's actually what happened--there's a crazy amount of anime being made now, so perhaps ratios have changed a bit as well. But there's lots of ways to cut the data, and speaking for myself, I don't really have the time or the inclination to do it...

I do believe that the types of shows that get made have changed overall and it would be strange if that weren't the case. The interview itself hints to this when Yamamoto Koji-san talks about how the industry has to focus on disk sales. It's perfectly normal in any commercial endeavour to follow the money and make the product that costumers want. It's also natural that tastes change along the years.

I think a good example has been the struggling of the Gundam series to recover the kinds of sales they enjoyed with Seed and 00. It's now been almost 10 years since the original airing of 00 (2007) for example. But the Gundam series has been around for a very long time, it's only natural for it's relevance to fade due to a lot of distinct reasons.

My personal pet peeve is the space opera genre but that one in particular was always rather niche.

Anyway I don't want to sidetrack this discussion any further. The interview brought me a lot of insight into the kind of decisions that were made relating to NoitaminA back in 2011 which is always nice to have and we should focus the discussion there. My comment was actually relating to the change in the type of shows the block itself focuses on. Kabaneri is pretty much a regular anime show and almost the polar opposite of something like Nodame Cantibile.

PS: I would love to do a bit of statistical analysis at the type of shows made in the last few years but both off the largest repositories for that kind of info online sadly put up quite a few barriers when trying to access the information (AniDB and MAL) and the info on Wikipedia is too chaotic to do a proper analysis using automated tools.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I think a good example has been the struggling of the Gundam series to recover the kinds of sales they enjoyed with Seed and 00. It's now been almost 10 years since the original airing of 00 (2007) for example. But the Gundam series has been around for a very long time, it's only natural for it's relevance to fade due to a lot of distinct reasons.

Even though Gundam TV series is nowhere where it used to be are we really going to act like the franchise is fading? Unicorn nearly sold 200k per volume and Origin is doing 80k right now after 2 volumes....

[karice67]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Just a recap though, what was the reason for them reverting back to a 30 episode segment nowadays? It's interesting that he was adamant keeping the hour long block 5 years ago, but since last year they reverted to half an hour. I remember there was a discussion about it, maybe something about focusing on movies? Now that's the next thought process I would love to hear about from the man himself.

I don't actually know the reason behind the 2015 change back to one half-hour slot + movies. It would have been coming on for about maybe 1-2 years as well (2-3 years seems to be a average length of time it takes to go from concept to airing/release of a TV series or film). noitaminA probably had a stretch of time where it wasn't doing too well -- I remember meeting someone at the noitaminA cafe in late 2014 who told me that only AnoHana and Psycho-Pass had had full preview screenings in in recent years (I think Your Lie in April did as well--possibly because it started airing at the same time as PP2; but by then, the decision had already been made.)

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

LOL. I personally love her (I don't think you'd find a bigger Okadafag in this forum than me XD), but she is still human. M3 was a financial disaster last I heard, and the Okada Gundam only selling 10k units is a bit weak compared to SEED and 00 (though to be fair Gundam TV hasn't broken 10k in at least 5 years).

I actually read an M3-related interview when I was preparing my Okada post a few weeks ago. IIRC, the director seems to have driven that (Okada mentioned that he'd originally asked her to help develop a world that would suit a light, happy-ish series; then after she'd come up with something, he realised that he wanted to do a dark series after all). That's pretty much the only point I remember from that interview, though...


Since you're a huge Okada fan though, mind if I ask something? When I read the Okada thread here a few months ago, one major criticism I remember from a number of vocal posters was that Okada allegedly loved 'emasculating' her male characters. The impression I got was that they were referring to how 'she' often had male characters crossdress. Putting aside whether it has always been her decision or not, out of the five Okada originals I've seen, I remember only the AnoHana one. What other series has she worked on that has had male characters crossdressing? And is there anything else that critics are referring to when they accuse her of 'emasculating men'?

Though this is a bit OT...so should it be via PM?

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Man, this talk of Macross Frontier and Okada in the same interview just rekindled an old longing of mine. Sure there's an Okada Gundam, but melodramatic love triangles within the backdrop of a space opera would've made a great Okada Macross. :'(

I'm not sure how I feel about that idea... Probably not a good idea for her to do one so close to the Gundam she's doing though.

Originally Posted by Dextro

I think a good example has been the struggling of the Gundam series to recover the kinds of sales they enjoyed with Seed and 00. It's now been almost 10 years since the original airing of 00 (2007) for example. But the Gundam series has been around for a very long time, it's only natural for it's relevance to fade due to a lot of distinct reasons.

I think there are a lot of factors in why SEED and 00 did well but the newer ones might not. I know that the seiyuu involved in SEED played a big part in getting female fans interested in the show (as they have also done for shows like Macross) -- and the characters created for all those series were important, too. Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly interested in the characters (or the main seiyuu) for the newer shows...

But I've been catching up on Macross Podcast recently, and it's interesting to hear what those long-time Macross fans living in Japan now say they saw at the cinema and the various shops when the Frontier films were in theatres. Whilst newer fans are being hooked, they're not really the disc-buying type...whilst older fans seem to be a bit turned off by what's changed as producers try to attract the newer fans.

Piracy and rental and second-hand stores probably play a part too, but one that's difficult to measure...

Originally Posted by Dextro

My comment was actually relating to the change in the type of shows the block itself focuses on. Kabaneri is pretty much a regular anime show and almost the polar opposite of something like Nodame Cantibile.

That's interesting, because to me, Kabaneri doesn't feel like a regular anime show either. That might be because our definitions of 'regular anime show' differ. In fact, anime covers so many different genres and character styles that I find it difficult to say 'this is what a regular anime show has'.

Originally Posted by Dextro

PS: I would love to do a bit of statistical analysis at the type of shows made in the last few years but both off the largest repositories for that kind of info online sadly put up quite a few barriers when trying to access the information (AniDB and MAL) and the info on Wikipedia is too chaotic to do a proper analysis using automated tools.

That's a pity. What kind of info do you mean, by the way? Stuff like genres?

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by karice67

I think there are a lot of factors in why SEED and 00 did well but the newer ones might not. I know that the seiyuu involved in SEED played a big part in getting female fans interested in the show (as they have also done for shows like Macross) -- and the characters created for all those series were important, too. Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly interested in the characters (or the main seiyuu) for the newer shows...

But I've been catching up on Macross Podcast recently, and it's interesting to hear what those long-time Macross fans living in Japan now say they saw at the cinema and the various shops when the Frontier films were in theatres. Whilst newer fans are being hooked, they're not really the disc-buying type...whilst older fans seem to be a bit turned off by what's changed as producers try to attract the newer fans.

Piracy and rental and second-hand stores probably play a part too, but one that's difficult to measure...

I think the slow uptake of streaming services in Japan is as much to blame as anything else (and I'm talking in the context of the interview, 2011). The older revenue model of DVD/BR sales limits the kinds of shows you can do if you want to avoid risk and Japanese are very much risk adverse as a whole.

Also I'm not so sure it was the Seiyuu that made SEED and 00. I think they just happened to be shows that hit that sweet spot of character designs and personalities that people were into at the time and being a Gundam had little to do with things.

Originally Posted by karice67

That's interesting, because to me, Kabaneri doesn't feel like a regular anime show either. That might be because our definitions of 'regular anime show' differ. In fact, anime covers so many different genres and character styles that I find it difficult to say 'this is what a regular anime show has'.

Kabaneri so far has pretty much been in line with Attack on Titan, Valvrave and other high profile shows from the last couple of years. At least that's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by karice67

That's a pity. What kind of info do you mean, by the way? Stuff like genres?

Yes, Genres and Air Dates. Both MAL and AniDB have those kinds of info but getting to them is a bit difficult. For one MAL has a really limited API that only allows full text searches and AniDB has a really old school XML API with rate limits. As a developer myself I see their fears and would probably do the same API key and rate limiting business but that leaves me with little options. I had some hope with AniDB since they have a large XML with every title in their database but it only contains names and ids, you have to query the site for more.

I'll try to look further into it one of these days. I may be able to do something with that AniDB list and TheTVDB which has a really nice REST API to work with.

[SeijiSensei]

ANN has an XML-based API, but I don't know how easy it is get summary information.

I've used AniDB in the past to examine trends in the number of shows produced and the like. Rather than making requests against the API, I've just run searches based on things like year began then dumped the resulting tables into a spreadsheet. That's one way to avoid rate limits.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

ANN has an XML-based API, but I don't know how easy it is get summary information.

I've used AniDB in the past to examine trends in the number of shows produced and the like. Rather than making requests against the API, I've just run searches based on things like year began then dumped the resulting tables into a spreadsheet. That's one way to avoid rate limits.

Completely forgot about ANN. That might work actually. It'll take a while due to the 1 req/sec limit but I might be able to do something with it. Thanks for the tip

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Dextro

Kabaneri so far has pretty much been in line with Attack on Titan, Valvrave and other high profile shows from the last couple of years. At least that's the way I see it.

I haven't seen Valrave, but I don't actually regard Titan as a typical or regular anime show. I don't know why, but it simply doesn't have many of the formulas that I personally associate with anime (cute girls, a wacky or RPG-based fantastical world, the film noir type stuff, or the classic shounen manga storyline -- let's face it, Eren is a rather irritating lead that hasn't really developed leadership qualities like you see in most shounen jump shows). Though there are other things that distinguish anime from other types of media (e.g. sound design in anime vs. Western TV dramas) that aren't just about the subject matter. I also remember a Japanese anime critic being asked about why character monologues are so much more common in anime than in live action.

But back on topic, the most recent episode of the Macross World Podcast has some interesting industry insights on why Kabaneri might be in the noitaminA slot: because AoT was a hit with the mainstream audience as well. So they were probably hoping to attract viewers with the 'by the creators of Attack of Titan' tagline.

Interesting insights into the anime industry as a whole in that podcast episode (if you aren't watching Macross Delta, just skip to the last quarter or so, where they discuss that show's popularity against industry trends and other headliners like Kabaneri).

Originally Posted by Dextro

I'll try to look further into it one of these days. I may be able to do something with that AniDB list and TheTVDB which has a really nice REST API to work with.

When you find the time to do all that, I'd like to see what you find ^^

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by karice67

When you find the time to do all that, I'd like to see what you find ^^

I did some scripts to fetch data from the ANN API like SeijiSensei suggested but at first glance the data seems rather poor genre-wise. It'll take a while to look at it and find some way to aggregate the shows properly. I'll try to look more into it next weekend