Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[thirdlc]

Ikeda Shoko didn't work on Haruhi 2009 but worked on Disappearance, as General Animation Director. I think that's the reason.

She took a maternity leave for one year after Clannad AS, so her style is not much k-onised as we can see it with the character model sheets for Haruhi 2009 and Disappearance.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I agree, but it mostly has to do with the general mood of each scene in question.

The more dark and/or serious the mood, the more like Haruhi 2006.

The more happy and/or lighthearted the mood, the more like Haruhi 2009.

While I much prefer the Haruhi 2006 style overall (for Haruhi's anime), I'm fine with this back-and-forth approach, as this artistic back-and-forth can actually add a lot to the overall atmosphere of all the scenes that way. The K-On! artistic style is actually fairly fitting for lighthearted moments, but for more dramatic moments, the Haruhi 2006 artistic style definitely works best, imo.

and that why first haruhi that i show you feel show strange.

i just wonder if same problem will be facing if they animate little buster

[RRW]

do you think kyoani will make little buster or

they decide to abandon them and make key chose pa works instead

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by rrw

do you think kyoani will make little buster or

they decide to abandon them and make key chose pa works instead

I'm actually fine with both situations, but I lean towards KyoAni because they are more reliable in terms of history.

One question is whether PA Works would be able to pull off a series longer than 26 episodes without a drastic decrease in average production quality per episode. Up to now they haven't done anything longer than 13 episodes.

[RRW]

i mean they problem is it seem kyoani try to fall back form serious anime and lean to typical slice of life moe anime which generate more profit

[Tempester]

We really can't draw any conclusions about that at this point. Remember how long the second season of Suzumiya Haruhi took to come out? Some people were complaining about KyoAni catering to Key works and that they wanted "moar Haruhi" instead. Now we not only have a second season but an excellent movie sequel made for the Suzumiya Haruhi series.

From what I've seen so far, KyoAni likes to adapt material in spades, 3 years of focusing on Key, 3 years of focusing on slice of life, et cetera. I can understand how fans may feel abandoned, but I'm willing to bet KyoAni hasn't quite completely given up on Key just yet. Also, Lucky Star was successful, and KyoAni could put out a second season of that any time they want even after many years.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Tempester

We really can't draw any conclusions about that at this point. Remember how long the second season of Suzumiya Haruhi took to come out? Some people were complaining about KyoAni catering to Key works and that they wanted "moar Haruhi" instead. Now we not only have a second season but an excellent movie sequel made for the Suzumiya Haruhi series.

From what I've seen so far, KyoAni likes to adapt material in spades, 3 years of focusing on Key, 3 years of focusing on slice of life, et cetera. I can understand how fans may feel abandoned, but I'm willing to bet KyoAni hasn't quite completely given up on Key just yet. Also, Lucky Star was successful, and KyoAni could put out a second season of that any time they want even after many years.

well consider they next project is slice of life. seem they fall back form serious anime industry and head out to more profitable moe industry.

i just hope that they go back to they former self where they make comparatively serous anime.

so little buster for 2012 then

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by rrw

is that just me or it seem Kyoani seem going down hill

i mean before K on their animation is good and i really like their art style.

then after k on, even if they still maintain the good quality on their own. its seem production value look lower than before.

probably because the art style is easier to animate than previous thank to being smoother and rounded.

it also to cover off model since basically they like squishy doll and hard to notice.

what i FOREVER hate is how it effect haruhi animation (yes even the movie is bit influence by them albeit less slightly than s2)

consider they make another slice of life anime after this. it seem they cannot back to old art style ( even thought the art seem going to azumanga style)

this even make me worried if they still willing to create little buster! if they did will it comparable to past key work

No, I think people are just starting to ever so slowly come to terms with what they actually represent as a whole following the huge popularity kick and near mythological status they were awarded with Haruhi's surprise success. The shows they do are still on about the same level of storytelling and still overwhelming appeal to fans of moe and visual/light novels like a good chunk of the anime industry continues too, it's just that as you say the better than average production values for the types of work they have committed too aren't always there to the same degree they used to be. It basically took a movie to give them their first arguably above average audio-visual experience in years.

Another factor could be that they haven't really improved in any area of anime production and continue to operate within their comfort zone of making easy money off of their very diligent fan base in Japan. Meanwhile other studios have started to reassert themselves after the crash of the Western anime industry and new ones are being founded and throwing their hat into the ring with a greater zealous and ambition then Kyoani has shown recently. So I'd argue they have merely stagnated as opposed to going downhill.

It also doesn't help that they currently have things so easy compared to a lot of other equally hard-working studios and individual talents who are rarely praised and rewarded to anywhere near the same degree by fans for giving about the same or frequently even more effort on their projects as Kyoani does. When you've arguably had everything handed to you during and following your breakout hit, regardless of the content you put out, it's no surprise it leads to complacency, relaxation of production values and lack of ambition to do original works or to challenge yourself to build on what you've accomplished. Although having the same director and staff for pretty much all of your works is going to lead to some pretty obvious stagnation pretty damn fast. Just look around at what some people are arguing about Shinbo and Shaft right now.

Originally Posted by rrw

i have no problem with production value

but i have problem with the ART style

i mean it feel like cheap when they use K on art style

either way i still impresses their background art. it always top notch both on haruhi and k on

but only the character art style that really get me mad.

What most people don't seem to know is that while the character art was mostly Kyoani, the background art for that movie was largely done by a separate studio in Korea called Studio Blue, and two other Japanese in-between animation groups called Anime Workshop Basara and Headworks who frequently lose credit for their work to Kyoto Animation and who have been behind the background art for parts (and in some cases all) of some of the most frequently praised animation works of the decade such as Angel Beats, Clannad After Story, Kanon, K-On, The Big O, Code Geass, Gundam 00, Eureka Seven and The Girl Who Leapt Through Time. Some Kyoani animators worked on the background art as well, but it was overwhelming done by outsiders. So basically the part of the movie that people are praising the most had little to do with Kyoto Animation in terms of hands on work, which really raises some interesting questions about where Kyoani is at as an animator. The work is actually a composite piece (like much of today's anime) mostly done out of house.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

No, I think people are just starting to ever so slowly come to terms with what they actually represent as a whole following the huge popularity kick and near mythological status they were awarded with Haruhi's surprise success. The shows they do are still on about the same level of storytelling and still overwhelming appeal to fans of moe and visual/light novels like a good chunk of the anime industry continues too, it's just that as you say the better than average production values for the types of work they have committed too aren't always there to the same degree they used to be. It basically took a movie to give them their first arguably above average audio-visual experience in years.

Another factor could be that they haven't really improved in any area of anime production and continue to operate within their comfort zone of making easy money off of their very diligent fan base in Japan. Meanwhile other studios have started to reassert themselves after the crash of the Western anime industry and new ones are being founded and throwing their hat into the ring with a greater zealous and ambition then Kyoani has shown recently. So I'd argue they have merely stagnated as opposed to going downhill.

It also doesn't help that they currently have things so easy compared to a lot of other equally hard-working studios and individual talents who are rarely praised and rewarded to anywhere near the same degree by fans for giving about the same or frequently even more effort on their projects as Kyoani does. When you've arguably had everything handed to you during and following your breakout hit, regardless of the content you put out, it's no surprise it leads to complacency, relaxation of production values and lack of ambition to do original works or to challenge yourself to build on what you've accomplished.

but i am not saying they are bad studio, the still top studio among others. even if downhill they still top studio

the movie obviously have better that normal tv series.

my main problem is that art style.

s1 haruhi have much detail art style than k-on.

it easy to make mistake on k-on without people notice than s1 haruhi which obviously make them cheaper to produce.

also they seem getting lazier at making plot. (practically in k on they simply chating, school trip, party, cycle)

until they final episode where they begun serious.

what i am saying that they seem silently try to make they anime cost less to make without people noticing.

what i am worrying is will they continue which mean downhill, or they make serious anime like clannad.

[Ithekro]

I seem to recall a cycle of comparisons from Haruhi to A-1's Kannagi to K-On and A-1's So Ra No Wo To, and back to Haruhi again.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by rrw

but i am not saying they are bad studio, the still top studio among others. even if downhill they still top studio

the movie obviously have better that normal tv series.

my main problem is that art style.

s1 haruhi have much detail art style than k-on.

it easy to make mistake on k-on without people notice than s1 haruhi which obviously make them cheaper to produce.

also they seem getting lazier at making plot. (practically in k on they simply chating, school trip, party, cycle)

until they final episode where they begun serious.

what i am saying that they seem silently try to make they anime cost less to make without people noticing.

what i am worrying is will they continue which mean downhill, or they make serious anime like clannad.

Yeah I'm not saying they are bad studio either, though I would fiercely argue against the idea that they are anywhere near the indisputably best studio out there right now and ask by what standard you judge them to be the top among all other competitors.

What I'm saying though is that they haven't done much to refine their craft (something a lot of studios are guilty of at the moment) and haven't been challenged much either. It might be a result of becoming an instant overnight success or the myriad of fans telling them they are already perfect, but as I said before they aren't experimenting, they aren't expanding, and they aren't showing any ambition. The only guy that ever worked with them that seemed to have any ambition was Yutaka Yamamoto and now that he's gone...well....he started his own animation studio and is now a competitor who seems to be gradually siphoning away anybody at Kyoto Animation that shows ambition and creativity.

[RRW]

^ that what i mean it seem they begun to lose they shine

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by rrw

^ that what i mean it seem they begun to lose they shine

I doubt it.

[arias]

Still the best studio now. There's no better studio, and I doubt that there's an TV series animation studio that has a better modern track record than KyoAni.

The Key-KyoAni relationship definitely depends on KyoAni to make it work in animation. Just look at Jun Maeda's work for Angel Beat! and you know it's KyotoAni that made Clannad, Kanon and AIR tick.

Fingers crossed their next work kicks crazy ass.

[RRW]

well i just hope they try to stop make typical slice of life (even thought they next project seem shaft-ist type of slice of life) and try to make something other type of anime. like seinen or action

lets hope they will be not like activision of gaming where they simply making money form one genre. and it successfully and every one copy it

[felix]

Originally Posted by rrw

well i just hope they try to stop make typical slice of life (even thought they next project seem shaft-ist type of slice of life) and try to make something other type of anime. like seinen or action

They've done those in the past. The question is why should they now? They really seem to be their own category at the moment; for what it's worth. To make a action anime would just add a drop in the ocean of action anime and kill the little shine they got going. I really don't see the point. To add to this, they are famous for their slice of life works, but barely get any credit for their action related works.

Also Munto (or going by the new name: Sora o Miageru Shōjo no Hitomi ni Utsuru Sekai) technically was a action anime and it was made in 2009. Which is realatively recently if you consider Kyoani likes to please the fans and gives us long shows or multiple seasons -- by comparison to the current trends anyway.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by arias

Still the best studio now. There's no better studio, and I doubt that there's an TV series animation studio that has a better modern track record than KyoAni.

Maybe for Japan and some parts of East Asia but not in the west. Sunrise and Madhouse performed much better for the western audience than KyoAni where slice of life/moe isn't as popular. Code Geass, Gundam and Death Note had a much bigger impact than Haruhi or Lucky Star did over in the west.

The term "best studio" is also subjective and limited to a couple of genres. KyoAni has yet to try or make a successful proper grim dark or action series for example. Most popular in East Asia might be the better term, but as for best, other studios like Madhouse or Studio Ghibli are more deserving due to their vast genre exposure and successes for these various genres.

The Key-KyoAni relationship definitely depends on KyoAni to make it work in animation.

Animation by P.A. Works for Angel Beats was fine, it appeared to be similar in quality to KyoAni's. It was the plot/pacing that was the main issue, not the animation.

Angel Beats was also more of an experimental project and funnily enough it was commercially successful. As mentioned before, plot/pacing was an issue which may be a combination of:

1. P.A. Works inexperience of dealing with big projects
2. Jun Maeda's inexperience of dealing with scripts other than for Visual Novels
3. The 13 episode limitation (Should have really had 24+)
4. Too much "filler"/unnecessary content despite the episode limitation.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by arias

Still the best studio now. There's no better studio, and I doubt that there's an TV series animation studio that has a better modern track record than KyoAni.

The Key-KyoAni relationship definitely depends on KyoAni to make it work in animation. Just look at Jun Maeda's work for Angel Beat! and you know it's KyotoAni that made Clannad, Kanon and AIR tick.

Fingers crossed their next work kicks crazy ass.

Well isn't that a nice little arbitrary way to cheapen the work of all other studios. Also I see no justification for why you think this is the case, just that apparently it is. That easy for you people huh....

Originally Posted by acejem

Maybe for Japan and some parts of East Asia but not in the west. Sunrise and Madhouse performed much better for the western audience than KyoAni where slice of life/moe isn't as popular. Code Geass, Gundam and Death Note had a much bigger impact than Haruhi or Lucky Star did over in the west.

The term "best studio" is also subjective and limited to a couple of genres. KyoAni has yet to try or make a successful proper grim dark or action series for example. Most popular in East Asia might be the better term, but as for best, other studios like Madhouse or Studio Ghibli are more deserving due to their vast genre exposure and successes for these various genres.



Animation by P.A. Works for Angel Beats was fine, it appeared to be similar in quality to KyoAni's. It was the plot/pacing that was the main issue, not the animation.

Angel Beats was also more of an experimental project and funnily enough it was commercially successful. As mentioned before, plot/pacing was an issue which may be a combination of:

1. P.A. Works inexperience of dealing with big projects
2. Jun Maeda's inexperience of dealing with scripts other than for Visual Novels
3. The 13 episode limitation (Should have really had 24+)
4. Too much "filler"/unnecessary content despite the episode limitation.

Thank you, that's a pretty reasonable answer to a fairly unreasonable post. Although I'm pretty sure Sunrise has performed better in Japan than Kyoani has too in terms of sales and is still more popular. Every time Kyoani releases something it seems like Sunrise is there within a week either way to release something that outdoes it in sales. Code Geass competed with Haruhi and Kanon, Gundam 00 competed with Clannad, K-On and Lucky Star, Gundam UC competed with K-On and Gundam 00: A Wakening of The Trailblazer and Gintama: Benizukara-Hen competed with The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya just this past week and for a while in theatres, where 00 actually edged out Haruhi by about 200,000 dollars on 20 less screens overall. People can track the history of anime DVD/BD sales on this thread and can also go to Anime News Network where they have an enormous backlog of week to week sales. Keep in mind these lists don't even include the market penetration in the west, which you mentioned which for Kyoto Animation is still essentially non-existant.

I'd also include Studio Ghibli at the top of the list of companies that have made it bigger than any other in the west. That deal with Disney....the closest any other company comes is of course Sunrise with their current deal to have a Cowboy Bebop movie made, though no idea if that's going to be made by an A-List or B-List studio. Madhouse is currently in the midst of a deal with Marvel as well so their exposure outside of Japan is continuing to grow again.

Originally Posted by felix

They've done those in the past. The question is why should they now? They really seem to be their own category at the moment; for what it's worth. To make a action anime would just add a drop in the ocean of action anime and kill the little shine they got going. I really don't see the point. To add to this, they are famous for their slice of life works, but barely get any credit for their action related works.

Also Munto (or going by the new name: Sora o Miageru Shōjo no Hitomi ni Utsuru Sekai) technically was a action anime and it was made in 2009. Which is realatively recently if you consider Kyoani likes to please the fans and gives us long shows or multiple seasons -- by comparison to the current trends anyway.

Trust me if there's anything Kyoani is lacking in anything it isn't in getting credit and praise for just about everything they do, regardless of whether its defining or not. No other company really gets that to anywhere near the same degree and its part of the reason why I say they've had a lot of their success handed to them among other factors.

As for Munto, its much older than 2009. You're looking back to 2003 on that one. What you saw was an OVA released on television with a few new episodes tacked on near the end. It's also something of a disaster of a franchise IMO.

If I may say something else now, it continues to amaze me how for a company so beloved by modern fandom so few people seem to have their facts straight about Kyoto Animation. It all seems to be based largely in fan created heroic myth and heresay as opposed to reality.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by felix

They've done those in the past. The question is why should they now? They really seem to be their own category at the moment; for what it's worth. To make a action anime would just add a drop in the ocean of action anime and kill the little shine they got going. I really don't see the point. To add to this, they are famous for their slice of life works, but barely get any credit for their action related works.

they dont have to make full action series like most of shonen. action/cross slice of life will do.

kyoani it self already make "unusual" slice of life like haruhi and clannad.

whether they will continue usual slice of life or change to unusual one is the question.

Originally Posted by acejem

Maybe for Japan and some parts of East Asia but not in the west. Sunrise and Madhouse performed much better for the western audience than KyoAni where slice of life/moe isn't as popular. Code Geass, Gundam and Death Note had a much bigger impact than Haruhi or Lucky Star did over in the west.

obviously when you compare slice of life with mecha . mecha will win consider they have bigger impact (probably the second biggest impact after creation of anime itself in anime history)

it also note that way that western think is opposite to japanese think. while japan think "cute" western think "brutal".

it also note that western think all animation is for kids while japan think that older man is okay to watch anime. this make most anime (particular fanservice one) already lost they audience when they go over seas.

Originally Posted by acejem

Animation by P.A. Works for Angel Beats was fine, it appeared to be similar in quality to KyoAni's. It was the plot/pacing that was the main issue, not the animation.

Angel Beats was also more of an experimental project and funnily enough it was commercially successful. As mentioned before, plot/pacing was an issue which may be a combination of:

1. P.A. Works inexperience of dealing with big projects
2. Jun Maeda's inexperience of dealing with scripts other than for Visual Novels
3. The 13 episode limitation (Should have really had 24+)
4. Too much "filler"/unnecessary content despite the episode limitation.

actually angel beat genre is "unusual" slice of life (same category as haruhi)

ideally they simply have "normal life" (by mean of that is SSS keep annoy student council and hope to find god in many ways. good example is special episode)

anime itself basically try to take away that "normal life" plot and simply compress major point like background of major character, ETC

you technically can stretch angel beat to 50+ episode

jun maeda it self try to make multimedia project. when he start this project, he try to make that angel beat can be expand easily and been used for long term.

the anime probably "summary" of this big project

they probably remake angel beat with added episode between old episode (ala s2 haruhi) or at least other type of media like ova or movie.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by rrw

obviously when you compare slice of life with mecha . mecha will win consider they have bigger impact (probably the second biggest impact after creation of anime itself in anime history)

it also note that way that western think is opposite to japanese think. while japan think "cute" western think "brutal".

No KyoAni series is bigger the Gundam SEED, Gundam SEED Destiny, Macross Frontier and the first Code Geass series in Japan.. which are all mecha series, only thing bigger than those when it comes to regular tv series anime is SHAFT's Bakemonogatari.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Gundam 00: A Wakening of The Trailblazer and Gintama: Benizukara-Hen competed with The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya just this past week and for a while in theatres, where 00 actually edged out Haruhi by about 200,000 dollars on 20 less screens overall.

Did you get that information from the same place that told you Break Blade was a straight to video release?

11, *,846,000,000 *88scr Mobile Suit Gundam 00 The Movie: A Wakening of the Trailblazer
12, *,830,000,000 102scr Suzumiya Haruhi no Shoushitsu

I'm guessing you got your info mixed up with Gintama.

*8, 1,066,000,000 142scr Gintama: Shinyaku Benizakura-hen

Which aired on a whole 40 more screens, but Gintama is a prime time anime and also a very popular WSJ manga so it's to be expected...

People can track the history of anime DVD/BD sales on this thread and can also go to Anime News Network where they have an enormous backlog of week to week sales. Keep in mind these lists don't even include the market penetration in the west, which you mentioned which for Kyoto Animation is still essentially non-existant.

Spoiler for Sunrise:

SUNRISE
68729 13 Kidou Senshi Gundam SEED DESTINY
58589 13 Kidou Senshi Gundam SEED
45367 *9 Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch
42690 *9 Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch R2
38514 *7 Kidou Senshi Gundam 00
34601 *7 Kidou Senshi Gundam 00 2nd Season
15448 12 Gintama
15284 13 Gintama Season 2
15282 13 Gintama Season 3
11062 *9 Infinite Ryvius
*9997 *9 My-HiME
*9620 *7 Seikai no Senki
*8956 *9 My-Otome
*7601 13 Keroro Gunsou
*6593 *9 s-CRY-ed
*5974 13 Turn A Gundam
*4890 13 Keroro Gunsou 2nd Season
*4814 *9 Overman King Gainer
*4653 *7 The Big O
*4781 *9 PLANETES
*4369 *5 Seikai no Senki II
*3512 *7 Seikai no Monshou
*3369 13 Keroro Gunsou 3rd Season
*3313 *6 Wings of Rean
*2928 *7 The Big O 2nd Season
*2543 *9 Sora wo Kakeru Shoujo
*2393 13 Keroro Gunsou 4th Season
*2288 *9 Idolmaster: XENOGLOSSIA
*2218 13 Witch Hunter Robin
*2095 *9 Inuyasha
*1855 *9 Zegapain
*1817 *9 Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto
*1734 17 Dinosaur King
*1447 10 Inuyasha 2nd Season
*1077 10 Inuyasha 3rd Season
*1051 *8 Inuyasha 5th Season
**993 *5 Inuyasha 4th Season
***** 10 Inuyasha 6th Season
***** *3 Inuyasha 7th Season
***** 17 Kekkaishi
***** *9 CLUSTER EDGE
***** 13 Onmyou Taisenki
***** 11 Dinosaur King 2
***** 13 Shutsugeki! Machine Robo Rescue
***** 13 Z.O.E Dolores, i
***** 18 Yakitate!! Japan
***** 17 Crush Gear Turbo

Spoiler for KyoAni:

Kyoto Animation
43064 ** K-ON!
41038 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
29146 12 Lucky☆Star
24808 *8 CLANNAD
24346 *6 AIR
19052 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu ("New Animation")
19884 *8 CLANNAD AFTER STORY
17253 *8 Kanon 2006
14641 *3 Suzumiya Haruhi-chan to Nyoron☆Churuya-san
*8917 *6 Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu
*4833 *7 Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid
***** *5 Sora wo Miageru Shoujo no Hitomi ni Utsuru Sekai (Munto TV)

You do the math, K-ON! 2 is another 40k avg more than likely, lol @ Munto though.