2008-09-17, 07:01 | Link #223 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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And I might have told you (= Chihiro) this before Quote:
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2008-09-17, 07:48 | Link #224 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Realistically, I see two ways to do VFR: 1) The best one. You have a clean original source like DVD, BluRay or Transport Stream. Then you can use Yatta to properly mark VFR parts, and Yatta automatically generates the correct timecode files. Encode, mux and be happy. 2) The less-than-perfect one. You have a Non-CFR source of some kind. My recommendation: First, check the main footage of the episode if the animation is 23.976fps or 29.97fps (this will cover 99.999% of all cases unless the capper screwed up). Then, do a filtered CFR encode to lossless in Avisynth via directshowsource(convertfps=true) as base. Check OP and ED if they have differing framerates, and if they do, make seperate directshowsource(convertfps=true) encodes for them, aswell. And finally, write the timecode file manually. Yes, manually. Stop screaming, it's not so hard. This is an example how it's done for a really nasty case: First, a 29.97fps OP, then 23.976fps episode, a 29.97fps ED and a 23.976 preview, like for example Rental Magica. We're going to do a dual release: Normal AVI for compatibility, and a VFR MKV release to be pretty. First, make two Conversion scripts for 23.976 and 29.970 frames per second: Quote:
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I recommend to keep the audio, since then you can make test encodes to check that the Karaoke is timed correctly (you can always work with "zeroed" Karaoke timing, which is useful, but sometimes you need to shift the kara 2-3 frames anyway). Now it's time to "assemble" the parts we have. This is how it's done: Quote:
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That's all you need for the AVI. Congrats, you're done. Now the VFR MKV on the same source: Quote:
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The result will be a 23.976 VFRAC video. Encode it any way you like, and then mux it with the manually written timecode file. Voila, CFR AVI and VFR MKV dual release! Last edited by Mentar; 2008-09-17 at 13:49. |
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2008-09-17, 08:28 | Link #225 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia Tech
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Mentar: I guess it's worth a shot. I'll see what I can do. Well, later on. I'm going to pay with VFR first with two losslesses, and then I'll see how that works out. And thanks! ^_^
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2008-09-17, 12:11 | Link #226 |
Hi
Fansubber
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before anyone says "VFR in xvid" again, VFR is not video-codec related. It totally depends on the container.
and AVI sucks since it can only do VFR as 120fps (or whatever the fpses' lowest common denominator) with dropped frames (or something). And there's always MP4 for SAP... (maybe) asking "VFR in xvid" sounds as stupid as "MKV files are huge"
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2008-09-19, 01:24 | Link #227 | |||||
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But okay, simply for the sake of discussion let's stipulate that a magical fairy drops "perfect cfr2tc" in our lap which cleanly creates a proper VFRAC video with a wonderful v1 timecode file like above. Then we're running into other kinds of difficulties: Quote:
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Other problems we have this way: Ever tried shifting Karaoke on VFRAC, especially on non-magical real-life cfr2tc output? You CAN do it via Aegisub, but it's relatively complicated if you want to do it properly. Also, your typesetter will curse you when he has to work with 29.97 workraws on a 23.976 source, ESPECIALLY if he's ASS-based instead of AFX. All moving signs will be completely fucked up in ASS, and much more annoying in AFX aswell, due to the constant duplicates. Therefore I'd strongly advise to ALWAYS base the workraw on the genuine framerate of the main episode, and that's usually 23.976 To sum it up: Yes, your approach generally does work. You will be able to create the files properly, but you lose quite a bit of quality in the process AND you make the life miserable for your typesetter. In my opinion it just doesn't add up. It's much easier to quickly encode 2 extra OP/ED versions. |
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2008-09-19, 18:29 | Link #228 | |||
Klipsch
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Frontier
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For CFR avi: avisource("Path\To\VFRACRAW[Lossless].avi") #The original source has been changed from 120 fps to 29.97 from cfr2tc, therefore, our input is now 29.97. src=last a=src.trim(0,2449).SelectEvery(5,0,1,2,3).AssumeFP S(23.976) #Dropping one out of 5 frames to to change it from 29.97 --> 23.976. b=src.trim(2450,31999).AssumeFPS(23.976) #This was originally 23.976, so no problem here. c=src.trim(32000,34499).SelectEvery(5,0,1,2,3).Ass umeFPS(23.976) #Dropping one out of 5 frames to to change it from 29.97 --> 23.976. d=src.trim(35000,0) #This was originally 23.976, so no problem here. a+b+c+d => Output is CFR 23.976 encode. I'm using AssumeFPS, not ChangeFPS. I'm only changing the timestamps, not adding/removing frames. (Not removing until SelectEvery) Quote:
For the typesetter, we can just make a 29.97 Workraw and give them the timecodes. Last edited by Meltingice; 2008-09-19 at 20:39. |
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2008-09-19, 19:42 | Link #229 |
King of Hosers
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 41
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That would be because you are converting the timecodes (from v2 to v1) incorrectly, more eloquently known as Doing It Wrong. When you are converting from the v2 to v1 type timecodes rounding errors become VERY IMPORTANT, which is why the tcConv app (from tritical's package) specifically has a max_diff parameter. The tool works perfectly fine despite what Mentar says , you just need to know how to use it. You can get a "proper" v1 timecodes file from anything if you use a max_diff relative to "how VFR" the source is.
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2008-09-19, 23:12 | Link #230 | |
Hi
Fansubber
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# timecode format v1 Assume 29.970000 0,1445,59.940059 1446,1456,29.970029 1457,1457,23.976024 1458,1458,19.980020 1459,1459,23.976024 1460,1460,29.970029 1461,1461,23.976024 1462,1462,19.980020 1463,1464,23.976024 1465,1465,19.980020 1466,1466,23.976024 1467,1467,29.970029 1468,1468,23.976024 1469,1469,19.980020 1470,1470,23.976024 1471,1471,29.970029 1472,1472,23.976024 1473,1473,19.980020 <snip> 35000,35556,29.970029 35557,35557,23.976024 35558,35558,19.980020 35559,35559,23.976024 35560,37687,29.970029 # Total Frames: 37688
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2008-09-20, 03:23 | Link #231 | ||||
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Now, if you encode this karaoke at 29.97 and subsequently decimate it down to 23.976 for the avi (which was your initial suggestion), then THIS KARAOKE EFFECT will jerk. Very obviously so, since one out of 5 frames will be dropped, but there's no duplicate. If on the other hand you'd load the very same karaoke script on a 23.976 footage and encoded it anew, it would NOT jerk. It would cleanly glide without problems. See what I mean? Quote:
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2008-09-20, 03:33 | Link #232 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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The problem I have with the approach is more in general. This "one size fits all" kind of encoding everything with 29,97 and then decimating things down creates more quality loss (see my notes to Meltingice) and technical difficulties for other parties involved than an encoder should be willing to accept, IMHO. |
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2008-09-25, 02:34 | Link #235 | |
King of Hosers
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 41
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Just like with playback of files which are b0rked...you can't expect much if they don't follow the rules in the first place . |
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2008-09-25, 08:37 | Link #236 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Delete all the single/two frame lines, change Assume to 23.976 and merge intersecting sections of the same FPS... they're just errors.
Or at least, I've never come across a source where they WEREN'T errors (removing a crapton of them has never hurt sync) Code:
# timecode format v1 Assume 23.9760024 0,1445,59.940059 <snip> 35000,37687,29.970029 # Total Frames: 37688 |
2008-09-25, 10:24 | Link #237 | |
King of Hosers
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 41
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Also as comatose said, that 60fps section was most likely just a bobbed 30fps section. So decimating/selectevery it back down to 30fps would most likely be preferable. |
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2008-09-26, 16:59 | Link #240 | ||
King of Hosers
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 41
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I think the overall lesson we've learned though, is just stay away from crappy sources. Hopefully there is usually a better one that isn't 120fps AVI . |
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