Code Geass R2 - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dyllani

How awful. The OoBK betrayed Zero. Even worst, they did it on the say so of Britannia's Second Prince. You'd think they'd be some discussion amongst the Order, but it looks like everyone just went along with it. The didn't even give Zero a chance to defend himself. Had they decided to abandon Zero at the beginning of the series, I would have understood it. Yet, it took them, all of five minutes, to realize that Zero was their one true leader and their only hope for a better future. They chose to follow him, and now they abandon him. He gave the power to fight their oppressor, they instead bow to Britannia. Death is what they deserve. Death at the hand of their new masters.

Oh well, Schniezel is a fair man, I'm sure he'll give the back Japan no strings attached. They can live their lives in peace, no more fighting. Good thing they were deaing with him, instead of Cornelia. She would probably blow them all up rather than compromise...

Speaking of which.

The way the "discussion" was going was almost indicating that Britannia had won and thus they were more or less discussing the terms of a treaty or settlement. To me that's what the whole scene spelled out to me. Especially with the way Schenzeil was simply asking them to hand over lelouch like that too.

I mean with Cornelia going, "you don't have anything to bargain with...etc."

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

I think he's still the most qualified to keep the UFN together. People trust him because he is just a common man. He speaks for the common man I guess. Having Xing Ke take over as UFN representative would be like giving it over to royalty or a position of nobility or something and other nations might be upset due to favoritism. Again he would have to rely on Todoh and Xing Ke for a lot of things for it to not be a total demise. That is if he is still part of the UFN.

He's qualified to keep the Black Knights together, but not the UFN. They aren't going to trust him to replace Zero. He has neither the skill nor the charisma, not to mention his unilateral decision to oust the previous leader.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Speaking of which.

The way the "discussion" was going was almost indicating that Britannia had won and thus they were more or less discussing the terms of a treaty or settlement. To me that's what the whole scene spelled out to me. Especially with the way Schenzeil was simply asking them to hand over lelouch like that too.

I mean with Cornelia going, "you don't have anything to bargain with...etc."

Nukes pretty much spell "we win" when only one side has them.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He's qualified to keep the Black Knights together, but not the UFN. They aren't going to trust him to replace Zero. He has neither the skill nor the charisma, not to mention his unilateral decision to oust the previous leader.

Nukes pretty much spell "we win" when only one side has them.

Exactly my thoughts, they're not a resistance anymore which what Ohgi was barely even qualified (if that) to "lead".

We saw proof of just how shitty a leader Ohgi is when there was a tactical decision to be made and he froze up, so someone else had to step up and take over because Ohgi couldn't make a simple move such as redistributing troops in accordance with the changing front lines.

Let's also not forget that as you mention they're now part of a larger organization, the UFN which encompasses a lot of nations besides Japan, so the future of those people depends on the decisions the UFN leadership makes. Ohgi is simply not qualified to play on such a big stage. Xingke and Zero are the only ones capable of doing that for the UFN, Todoh is nothing more than an order follower.

[Sprite_Coke]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He's qualified to keep the Black Knights together, but not the UFN. They aren't going to trust him to replace Zero. He has neither the skill nor the charisma, not to mention his unilateral decision to oust the previous leader.

I agree, it's kinda like the US constitution. The President (leader of the BK in this case) is the chief of the Army, but only congress (UFN in this case) can wage wars and summon the army

[nutype]

when does 20 air in japan time?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Ougi? Are you serious? Last I recall, Xing-ke was made Lieutenant Commander.

Was he named Zero's #2, heh must have missed that... ya he would make the most proper leader of the BK as he is the only one who comes close to matching zero's intellegence, leadership and charisma... though Ohgi would still be good as the representative of the BK for reasons others have mentioned and as deidhart has said about him

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

This episode really bugged me, well OK the OOBK really bug me, I mean great job selling the person who's done so much fore you guys, I wonder what will they do now that they've got now one to lead them, I mean Toudo is good yeah but if it weren't fore Lelouch they'd still be in Tokyo trying to steal bombs from the Britannia's and doing terrorist acts and Toudo would have been long since killed by Cornelia and her squad, bunch of ungrateful little bastards.
I liked Rollo's last moments; they actually made him an agreeable character in the end.

Yes the ungrateful bastards how dare they sell out the man who lied to them, a man whose success are actually built on the blood of thousands of innocents; they should worship the man who cost them the chance of gaining something good through euphemia's SAZ and instead caused the massacre of thousands of innocent japanese to inspire a full revolution; a revolutlion i might add that he abandoned at the most crucial point sending it into failure. He caused to the death of strong and loyal patriotic generals and called it a suicide... he secretly lead the slaughter of woman and children with nothing saying he has not done this regularly. Many of those in the black knights may have actually been enslaved into service and not their by choice; how dare they hate being used as pawns and all for his own personal crusade... And let us not forget about the WMD that he did not tell his comrades about before demising it as a bluff... Yes how dare they hate him for all these actions and more...

While the writing of the betrayal was pretty bad in that Britanian's "proof" and "argument" against Zero was too weak to actually convince BK of Zero's actions, their reaction to the "truth" was very believable.

Though the "truth" was really only half the story and mistruths, even if Zero was given the chance to explain he would have nothing to prove his reasons... it's true he sacrificed the japanese general; he has no way of proving that the geass on Euphemia was an accident; He also got rid of any proof of the nature of the research facility and would not be able to explain why the everyone needed to die as opposed to capturing the facility. Despite what the REAL truth is Zero had nothing left to stand on at that point... Kallen is the only one who would be willing to listen to him as she's the only one he allowed to know who he is personally; she is the only one who could see that the "truth" that britania has shown about Zero does not add up to lelouche's true nature and thus knows that something must be wrong about the "truth"... other than Kallen Zero never gave anyone a REAL reason to trust him and that he was truly honorable... they chose to believe in him without him ever proving he was trustworthy... his "success" proved he can accomplish things and lead, but not that they could trust what he truly wanted

The ends do not justify the means, Zero's success would not absolve him or the deaths he has caused for his personal crusade. In hindsight Zero may have actually caused a lot of unnecessary harm... If not for him, japan might be enjoying the SAZ which would have given the people back much of their rights and freedoms; and the SAZ might have even been repeated in other britanian territories as a method to quell rebellions... It's not absolute freedom, but it is something good that no one would have to die to obtain, unlike world war that would cost the lives of millions... even china might still be fine as they would have been freed through Xiangke's coup instead of revolution triggered by Zero... we can never be sure of what about these "what ifs" but we could raise the question as to whether or not all those that died were truly unavoidable or if the same "ends" could have been obtained through cleaner and/or more honorable and honest means

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Many of those in the black knights may have actually been enslaved into service and not their by choice

Good old paranoia. This is why they're not likely to last without Zero. The thought that anyone anywhere could be controlled is liable to tear them apart.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

If not for him, japan might be enjoying the SAZ which would have given the people back much of their rights and freedoms; and the SAZ might have even been repeated in other britanian territories as a method to quell rebellions... It's not absolute freedom, but it is something good that no one would have to die to obtain, unlike world war that would cost the lives of millions... even china might still be fine as they would have been freed through Xiangke's coup instead of revolution triggered by Zero... we can never be sure of what about these "what ifs" but we could raise the question as to whether or not all those that died were truly unavoidable or if the same "ends" could have been obtained through cleaner and/or more honorable and honest means

The SAZ was a band-aid meant to knock out the terrorist problem, Euphy's intentions notwithstanding. It wouldn't have lasted, and Britannia would still be off conquering more and more nations until they oppressed the entire world. Lelouch's methods may be violent, but they're not short-sighted.

[Gundampilotspaz]

There are two ways the show can go at this point, in my mind at least.

Either Lelouch is going to make a glorious effort to sacrifice himself to kill the emperor and succeed (although it seems the emperor can't be killed but if his body is destroyed there will be little remaining to survive)

Or Britannia is going to betray the Black Knights and they are going to want Zero back in order to regroup and start all over again. Thus setting things up for a third season.


There are five to seven episodes remaining and a lot can happen in that time. Frankly I hope the series does take a different route than the two possibilities above. But is that enough time for the Black Knights to take on the remaining Knights of Rounds, especially since the first knight seems almost invincible to any knightmare except for the modified Gurren (we won't know until the two meet in battle)

It's kind of depressing how they are killing off so many characters. That might count against the possibility for a third season....

[morbosfist]

Six episodes, and there's no third season. This is the endgame.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Six episodes, and there's no third season. This is the endgame.

Yep.

We still have four main characters that can die too. C.C. (who wants/wanted to die), Kallen (WHO BETTER NOT DIE!), Suzaku (who essentially is unable to die, thanks to Lulu), and Lelouch (... He has the Geass?! He's the main character, and he's NOT allowed to die unless Kallen dies).

Charles has to die...

Anyone else is fair game anyhow. EXCEPT ANYA! NO! BAD! Anya lives!!!

[Gundampilotspaz]

Originally Posted by Traece

Yep.

We still have four main characters that can die too. C.C. (who wants/wanted to die), Kallen (WHO BETTER NOT DIE!), Suzaku (who essentially is unable to die, thanks to Lulu), and Lelouch (... He has the Geass?! He's the main character, and he's NOT allowed to die unless Kallen dies).

Charles has to die...

Anyone else is fair game anyhow. EXCEPT ANYA! NO! BAD! Anya lives!!!

I think we can say that C.C. is already technically "dead". Suzaku and Lelouch are prime targets to die by the end; either by sacrifice (as I predicted above) or by a final battle between the two. It's pretty clear that these characters (and the politics they represent) can not exist together in the same world. When they attempted to repair their friendship it just ended up making things much worse. I don't think they'll get another chance to make up before the end.

Kallen won't die, she will probably take over the role of Zero and lead the Black Knights. There is no one more capable to lead an army then her. (she doesn't posses the brilliant tactical mind of Lelouch but the girl has skillz)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

I think we can say that C.C. is already technically "dead". Suzaku and Lelouch are prime targets to die by the end; either by sacrifice (as I predicted above) or by a final battle between the two. It's pretty clear that these characters (and the politics they represent) can not exist together in the same world. When they attempted to repair their friendship it just ended up making things much worse. I don't think they'll get another chance to make up before the end.

Kallen won't die, she will probably take over the role of Zero and lead the Black Knights. There is no one more capable to lead an army then her. (she doesn't posses the brilliant tactical mind of Lelouch but the girl has skillz)

Suzaku and Lelocuh simply can't fight each other to the death. They're incompatible for such a thing. Hand to hand Suzaku wins, Knightmare Suzaku wins. These two battle with ideologies, not each other.

Also, Kallen is not a capable leader. She is a capable fighter. Kallen is like Suzaku, an ace tearing up the front lines while others give the orders.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

I think we can say that C.C. is already technically "dead". Suzaku and Lelouch are prime targets to die by the end; either by sacrifice (as I predicted above) or by a final battle between the two. It's pretty clear that these characters (and the politics they represent) can not exist together in the same world. When they attempted to repair their friendship it just ended up making things much worse. I don't think they'll get another chance to make up before the end.

Kallen won't die, she will probably take over the role of Zero and lead the Black Knights. There is no one more capable to lead an army then her. (she doesn't posses the brilliant tactical mind of Lelouch but the girl has skillz)

Actually Suzaku and Lelouch killing eachother is quite improbable. The fact that they've come to despise eachother and have tried to mend their friendship is proof of that.

Suzaku seems to feel bad because Lelouch feels as if Suzaku has betrayed his trust now, and betrayed his now deceased sister as well. I think if Suzaku could regain Lelouch's trust by helping him defeat Charles, then they'd end up friends again.

However, Suzaku and his physical prowess somehow set him up for death. At the least, Suzaku may die and Lelouch will realize that they were considerably better off as friends.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Good old paranoia. This is why they're not likely to last without Zero. The thought that anyone anywhere could be controlled is liable to tear them apart.

I doubt it, a few like tamaki might get paranoid over the idea, but the real leaders of the BK are much more calm and level headed to not get so paranoid and keep things together... the idea that Zero may have enslaved certain members is not something they are gonna be paranoid about, but something they will be mad about for moral and ethical reasons; its false in that no one in the BK has ever been enslaved, but it does hold a ring of truth as Cornelia's knight(non-BK) was practically forced into zero's service... I doubt the black knights would have a lot of trouble keeping the order together; their real trial will be dealing with Britania's new WMD...

If BK is lucky, Nina will complete the lapse she is currently in and find a way to erase her creation if such a thing is possible... crazy little nina, only now realizing the weight of what she has created after the blood is on her hands

The SAZ was a band-aid meant to knock out the terrorist problem, Euphy's intentions notwithstanding. It wouldn't have lasted, and Britannia would still be off conquering more and more nations until they oppressed the entire world. Lelouch's methods may be violent, but they're not short-sighted.

We can never be sure of that... afterall, if the SAZ had come to an end, that would have been the trigger for a new wave of terrorism and this time there would not be a peaceful way out as the japanese would never trust britania to show them such a thing again... maintaining the SAZ would be a better course of action

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

Kallen won't die, she will probably take over the role of Zero and lead the Black Knights. There is no one more capable to lead an army then her. (she doesn't posses the brilliant tactical mind of Lelouch but the girl has skillz)

Kallen is not a good leader, she's only a good fighter... Xiangke or todou would be far better choices

besides, i think it's most likely that she would leave the BK to seek out Lelouche... despite her original reasons for joining this fight she seems to have become too close to lelouche to leave him; Japan getting it's freedom back could be her cue to leave...

Kallen is basically the only one he has left that can understand him... the ashford kids no nothing of his zero exploits, C.C. has lost her memory, Rolo's dead, He has betrayed any of his siblings that might have still cared about him, nunnally is dead, all of BK has betrayed him and he has lost his ability to trust in suzaku... Jeremiah would still fight for him for the sake of his mother, be he's a soldier, not someone he can confide in... i think Kallen will leave to join up with Lelouche, and probably bring C.C along as someone's got to look out for the little moe

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I doubt it, a few like tamaki might get paranoid over the idea, but the real leaders of the BK are much more calm and level headed to not get so paranoid and keep things together... the idea that Zero may have enslaved certain members is not something they are gonna be paranoid about, but something they will be mad about for moral and ethical reasons; its false in that no one in the BK has ever been enslaved, but it does hold a ring of truth as Cornelia's knight(non-BK) was practically forced into zero's service... I doubt the black knights would have a lot of trouble keeping the order together; their real trial will be dealing with Britania's new WMD...

Calm and level-headed? Maybe you missed the betrayal and firing squad. Calm and level-headed people would not shoot their best pilot just to kill Zero, and they would have given Zero a chance to speak in the first place. These people aren't calm. They were confronted with a power which they have little comprehension of and reacted the most excessive show of force imaginable. The WMD is only going to keep them docile on the outside.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

If BK is lucky, Nina will complete the lapse she is currently in and find a way to erase her creation if such a thing is possible... crazy little nina, only now realizing the weight of what she has created after the blood is on her hands

Invention is a one-way street. One it's out of the bag, it's not going back in.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

We can never be sure of that... afterall, if the SAZ had come to an end, that would have been the trigger for a new wave of terrorism and this time there would not be a peaceful way out as the japanese would never trust britania to show them such a thing again... maintaining the SAZ would be a better course of action

It would all depend on how it was ended, and even if they did just cut if off, the damage would be irreparable. The terrorist movements would have been all but eliminated had it gone through.

[Gundampilotspaz]

I agree that she is not a good leader, but someone needs to be Zero. Todou would take command but someone needs to be the figurehead. Zero is a symbol more than anything else.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

I agree that she is not a good leader, but someone needs to be Zero. Todou would take command but someone needs to be the figurehead. Zero is a symbol more than anything else.

Zero's all but dead after this. No one possesses what it takes to be Zero, or they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of getting Lelouch back.

[Hasaki]

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

I agree that she is not a good leader, but someone needs to be Zero. Todou would take command but someone needs to be the figurehead. Zero is a symbol more than anything else.

I believe you're saying his a figurehead / symbol of the revolution, because he is definitely not just there for "looks" haha. He does have ability, and is crucial for the success of the Black Knights.

[Sprite_Coke]

Well, if Schneizel gives 'em Japan, most of the Old Guard BKs probably will disintegrate

[Gundampilotspaz]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Zero's all but dead after this. No one possesses what it takes to be Zero, or they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of getting Lelouch back.

Originally Posted by Hasaki

I believe you're saying his a figurehead / symbol of the revolution, because he is definitely not just there for "looks" haha. He does have ability, and is crucial for the success of the Black Knights.

Also remember that only the Black Knights have outed Zero. The still need someone to be the Black Knights spokes person while dealing with the world. How are they going to explain Zero's disappearance without losing all credibility?