Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Ascaloth]

Episode 22 article is up:

[RIUVA] CLANNAD ~After Story~, Episode 22

Beautiful ending. Much in the manner of the portrayal of the characters and themes of the story; flawed, but beautifully so. 9/10.

[Wandering_Youth]

Heh, as soon as the episode showed me that all the tragedies that befell Tomoyo were not real. I knew right away that a lot of viewers are going to start complaining that they felt cheated in some sort of way and it's true.

Me? I enjoyed the ending. The fact that the tragedies that were shown to me of a "what would happened" to Tomoyo Tomoya is still permanently stuck in my head. I was truly wowed in the past episodes with what happened to Nagisa and Ushio. It was so sad! With that being said, after finally finding out the ending, I became really happy that wife and daughter are still with Tomoyo Tomoya.

[Narzia]

Started good. The first insert song fit perfectly. The second, while beautiful, was somehow wasted though.. could've been better.

There was barely any emotion.. even though it was a happy ending. All i felt was just "Uh.. that's it?" Not because of the arguable plot, but because of lack of emotion. I wasn't sad.. i wasn't happy... it was just nothing. Except the first part of the episode it was "oh well.." all the way to the ridiculous Fuuko ending.

And why only show the grandmother? I wanted to see Tomoya's dad one last time, smiling and with opened eyes. :/

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

And I'm not sure I like it. For one, nothing about the other world was really explained. It's just... THERE and it grants wishes.... ooookaaayyy.

And for some reason, everything teleports back, Star Trek style and it's all fine and dandy now.

I thought that it was explained a little a few post above yours.

[Tatiana Razajev]

Originally Posted by DJLowrider

As for the Fuko ending...let's be honest, we all wanted to see a little more Fuko before the very end. She is rather cute, after all. A bit touched (and by "touched" I mean "bludgeoned with a ball peen hammer"), but cute. .

She's my favorite character in the series. Thus it's a given that I was very happy to see her again. At one point I actually gave up hope of seeing her again. Yeah, I grew impatient. Regardless, having her in episode 22 is just good for me.

That being said, I'm also happy with the way the Nagisa, Ushio, and Tomoya stuff played out. I found it quite effective and very fitting. Fitting in terms of what happened before and the various clues the series left that sort of foreshadowed the ending.

I noticed some people have been bringing up My HiME, so I'll state that just for the record I liked the way it ended as well. Granted, I think it could have used at least one or two more episodes to flesh out the ending, but I think the path they took fitted the theme of that series in my view.

In general, I'm not against miracles happening. It just depends on how the miracle is handled. Also as much as people gripe about Deus Ex Machina, it amazes me how people are often perfectly fine with I like to call Diablos Ex Machina.

[Fishman]

Originally Posted by DJLowrider

22 is the end of the series, stated both by the title which notes it as the final episode and by the big "owari" kanji after the Fuko sequence. The only ambiguity is whether you believe it to be a mystical ending or not.

If I had to wager a guess, 23 is actually going to be episode 1 of Clannad only told from Nagisa's POV instead of Tomoya's.

Finally, you can quit the trolling/flamebaiting anytime now. I give you a 2/10 for your efforts, but only because it's a Friday and I'm feeling generous.

I meant episode 21 and 22, my bad, and how is it not ambiguous? Just because it says final has nothing to do with the story of Clannad. We see Ushio and Tomoya in the snow-world as it is disappears and then we see Tomoya travel back in time except it isn't back in time because Nagisa knows it's Tomoya and right after that we hear two voices say "ahh...it ends now. This long, long journey" which means Tomoya and Ushio became the orbs and are imaging that perfect ending we saw, or like I said you can believe that everybody has been resurrected, it doesn't make a difference to me, just don't fill in the blanks, and slight people that think autonomously. The writers of the story gave us the choice to end it how we see fit.

[panzerfan]

I agree with VRMN about how that emotions were used as playthings for Maeda Jun. Having said that, Key made itself a decent myth based on the realities behind the nucleus and the extended family, and from the perspective of eliciting an emotional response it succedded brilliantly. Whereas the actual flow of events can become questionable by the end, while realism went to the dogs and the audience will have to live with it.

Now, I would strongly hold against having dead set an end to Clannad. The story's messages by 21 should be pretty evident to most viewers (unless if you're completely self-absorbed with what could've been and what should be for Tomoya) on family and the surrounding people. Anything outside of this scope becomes an interpretation of that central theme, episode 22 not being an exception, ultimately leaving it to the audience on whether or not if one should ever close the book on the subject matter.

Fishman talking about Tomoya committing suicide certainly is valid, but then you'd have to get to the (un)pleasantries of the aftermath of that. It's rather not tactful and I think would ran foul in the mouth of some people just as this ending ran foul in the mouth of people that would favor more realistic approach. There is no appeasement of both sides. You'd be spoon fed melodrama if someone shows the elderly burying the youth and pondering about moving on next, the then the question of who to narrate the story will rear its ugly head at that point.

A thing that is rather dangerous is to equate Kyoani to Key. One of my gripe with some reviewers is that they see more to KyoAni's part than just being a producer/director working off an original script so that their criticisms are seemingly pointed only at one point. If criticisms need to be handed, a wider breath should be demanded of if the said reviewer demands for wider breath in those critiques, or you'll end up in self-contradiction now wouldn't you?

Myssa_Rei raised a point about the town paying dividend... but the problem is, the debtor itself is inexplicably linked to the effects of change. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the development of the town poses environmental prices that are paid, and given the Japanese concept of natural deities, the town in this case, is very much an organic, conscious entity. This brings to the question of how the Japanese view their relationship with their environment and how does the environment affect people in turn. Clannad is not the only piece of work that hints to this underlaying relationship, but it certainly invests heavily in this undertone.

To clarify, and by this point it's not a spoiler, episode 23 is pre-clannad chronology wise. It takes place 1 year before Tomoya and Nagisa's meeting over the foot of the hill.

[Nikkan]

great ending 10/10. I cried ALOT Clannad have been an awsome anime

[DJLowrider]

Originally Posted by Fishman

I meant episode 21 and 22, my bad, and how is it not ambiguous? Just because it says final has nothing to do with the story of Clannad. We see Ushio and Tomoya in the snow-world as it is disappears and then we see Tomoya travel back in time except it isn't back in time because Nagisa knows it's Tomoya and right after that we hear two voices say "ahh...it ends now. This long, long journey" which means Tomoya and Ushio became the orbs and are imaging that perfect ending we saw, or like I said you can believe that everybody has been resurrected, it doesn't make a difference to me, just don't fill in the blanks, and slight people that think autonomously. The writers of the story gave us the choice to end it how we see fit.

See, this makes a fair bit more sense now that you've actually explained your perspective. At first you seemed to be rather combative about it, at least that's the vibe I got.

For the sake of following your thought process here, you're right. 21 or 22 could be seen as the story's ending. To an extent it really depends on how much tolerance you have for the supernatural elements we were presented with throughout the series (ie. Kotomi's theory of multiple worlds, light orbs representing happiness, wishes, etc.) If you're not a fan of such Deus ex Machina, then the "rocks fall everyone dies" ending is probably your cup of tea.

Regardless, whichever ending one prefers is an entirely subjective matter. To be sure, anyone's insistence of one ending being the "True End" over the other is a matter of personal taste and can hardly be taken as anything more than an opinion. I can appreciate a preference for a not-so-happy ending, I myself quite liked the ending to Gurren Lagann despite it not being a necessarily happy one. However, in this instance I will profess to quite liking the happy ending version, but as I detailed in my own review of this episode, I have my own reasons for that that have nothing to do with fanboyism of Key, KyoAni or this series.

Given such an open perspective on the series' ending I would be about the last person to insist any one ending is any better or more right than the other. Indeed, according to the Multiple Worlds theory really any ending is acceptable, be it "good" or "bad".

Now all that said, please do look back at your original post in this thread:

Why is everybody saying this is a happy ending? If this is all a hallucination(as i assume it is because of the incoherence in the episode) then nothing is solved, the last scene with Fuuko finding Ushio can be seen as the result of Tomoya dropping Ushio's corpse under the tree and then commiting suicide, why is everyone assuming a happy ending when nothing was made clear this episode? I think my interpretation is way better, screw dues ex machina.

Now you tell me, who's the one slighting others over their interpretation of the series' ending?

Edit:

To clarify, and by this point it's not a spoiler, episode 23 is pre-clannad chronology wise. It takes place 1 year before Tomoya and Nagisa's meeting over the foot of the hill.

Ah, that makes sense. Now that I think about it, Nagisa's hair was a bit shorter than I remember it. Plus she was talking about her second year of high school as I remember.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth

Heh, as soon as the episode showed me that all the tragedies that befell Tomoyo were not real. I knew right away that a lot of viewers are going to start complaining that they felt cheated in some sort of way and it's true.

Me? I enjoyed the ending. The fact that the tragedies that were shown to me of a "what would happened" to Tomoyo is still permanently stuck in my head. I was truly wowed in the past episodes with what happened to Nagisa and Ushio. It was so sad! With that being said, after finally finding out the ending, I became really happy that wife and daughter are still with Tomoyo.

LOL How does one mistake TomoYA for TomoYO? Heck, this is like the biggest mix-up among my foreign friends watching CLANNAD too. But really, Tomoyo still looks hawt. But we can all now add Mei to the list too.

Originally Posted by panzerfan

A thing that is rather dangerous is to equate Kyoani to Key. One of my gripe with some reviewers is that they see more to KyoAni's part than just being a producer/director working off an original script so that their criticisms are seemingly pointed only at one point. If criticisms need to be handed, a wider breath should be demanded of if the said reviewer demands for wider breath in those critiques, or you'll end up in self-contradiction now wouldn't you?

You know, their close working relationship has ever led me to ask if one day, such a thing could happen, where Kyoani and Key merge.

[jenthehen]

Episode was absolutely beautiful, but ... it didn't make any darn sense. The deux ex machina - it hurts!! And I usually love that type of ending.

I was really expecting for Nagisa to "save" Ushio ... not ... time machine magical warp!

It was very pretty to look at, though ... and happy.

I have always disliked Fuuko's character, though, so the ending was kind of blah. She's just so darn annoying. I liked all the images used that have been used in the openings, though. Nice tough.

[Fishman]

Originally Posted by DJLowrider

Now you tell me, who's the one slighting others over their interpretation of the series' ending?

I was mostly talking of my hatred toward the dues ex machina ending and how it is indicative of bad writing, but I see how it was disparaging, sorry.

[Jimmy C]

Merger probably not going to happen. But it would be interesting if Key contracts KyoAni to do some animated cutscenes for them. However, I believe Key can do their own animations, right?

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by ShimatheKat

You know, their close working relationship has ever led me to ask if one day, such a thing could happen, where Kyoani and Key merge.

What if Toei and Key merge then?

[jery626]

It's a good thing that I woke up from a nightmare... I did wonder how they will end the season with the previous episode though... Oh well it would still be a good season for me either way...

[Yukinokesshou]

Did anyone notice that Nagisa's singing has improved?
Compare her rendition of "Dango" in this episode to that in Episode 7 of Season 1 (the Dango vs. Starfish competition).

[MeoTwister5]

After my finals end I'm gonna do something I probably shouldn't do.

Watch all episodes of both seasons in succession.

[DJLowrider]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

After my finals end I'm gonna do something I probably shouldn't do.

Watch all episodes of both seasons in succession.

Make sure to head to your local warehouse-style store and buy a pallet of tissues then. I recommend Puffs brand, they're much easier on the nose.

[D-KLAC]

alright i seen it & yet this said it all "Do you believe in miracles?"

[PNGO]

Well happy ending, but this is what I was complaining about, a REALLY unrealistic ending. I mean it's awesome to cheat all the problems you have and just go back in time and fix it all? I was hoping for a miracle where they save Ushio or something, but no they had to go back in time, I mean wtf...
The overrall episode was average, beautiful animation, but every other thing was average. And comon that Fukko ending was lame.