[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Hey that's not true apparently you don't like the idea that she's disguising as Kanon or Shannon ^_-

[ijriims]

I don't get it. How can a human being be not a person per se?

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hey that's not true apparently you don't like the idea that she's disguising as Kanon or Shannon ^_-

Go away you ship-sinker, or at least join me in sinking Kinzo/Beatrice.

I don't get it. How can a human being be not a person per se?

You know how some people are described as "Beasts" because they're *that* crazy? Same thing here.

[Jan-Poo]

He means that Beatrice is her true identity and not a fake one.

While almost everyone is speculating that everyone is exactly who appears to be and someone is taking the "role" of Beatrice.


Knox rules works against work^3's theory because disguise must be hinted. The idea that someone is disguising as Beatrice is already hinted, but the idea that someone is disguising as Kumasawa, Genji or whatever doesn't seem to be hinted afaik.

However I think it can work for Kanon since EP2 they said "it was Kanon and at the same time it was someone else".

[ijriims]

It is kind of fun to read you two arguing with each other.

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I understand WorkWorkWork's stance on Beatrice, but I don't get why he (she?) wants to sink Kinzo/Beatrice.

Kinzo was already dead, there was no need to sink this ship.

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The clue of someone posing as Kumasawa was Battler's comment that she had been working for such a long time, and that once she left but later returned.

My reasoning was that Kumasawa got kicked out because Kinzo discovered she had been sneaking in the tunnel system hoping to find the gold (she had been serving cliff-falling Beatrice in Kwadorian through the tunnel system, as I have hypothesized before). Latter, she successfully persuaded Kinzo to let her come back. And her reason of working here for so long was apparently because she needed to be on Rokkenjima often to find the gold.

[rogerpepitone]

It's difficult to disguise oneself so as to appear smaller, and Kanon is a small guy. On the island, the only people of his size or smaller are Shannon and Maria.

[Jan-Poo]

The clue of someone posing as Kumasawa was Battler's comment that she had been working for such a long time, and that once she left but later returned.

How this supports a disguise? Pretty much every relative returns to Rokkenjima after a year, but we know that this is not good enough since Dlanor requested a proof when Battler proposed that someone was disguising as Rosa.


BTW jirmis, you have made two spoilering posts one after another in the ep23 thread and the fanart thread, please remove them. I have already sent a PM to you.

[Kaiba]

I understand WorkWorkWork's stance on Beatrice, but I don't get why he (she?) wants to sink Kinzo/Beatrice.

Kinzo was already dead, there was no need to sink this ship.

Shippers are irrational. That's all that needs to be said.
But seriously, work, can you give some actual evidence that there is a real Beatrice while getting around the red truths? Because honestly your crazed shipping of Beato/Battler is somewhat nuts.

or he cease to become a detective, but could he recant his identity of detective?

I thought it was pretty obvious that Battler stops being a detective after midnight on October 5th, so at that point he is fully capable of seeing crazy stuff like butterflies and Beatrice on the stairs.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Shippers are irrational. That's all that needs to be said.
But seriously, work, can you give some actual evidence that there is a real Beatrice while getting around the red truths? Because honestly your crazed shipping of Beato/Battler is somewhat nuts.


I thought it was pretty obvious that Battler stops being a detective after midnight on October 5th, so at that point he is fully capable of seeing crazy stuff like butterflies and Beatrice on the stairs.

It's not crazed, it's the crazy revelation that his only options afterwards make him an incestuous pedophile.

I was joking about sinking Kinzo/Beatrice by the way, it's just that everyone is so determined to think she isn't real that they've stopped thinking of the possibility that she IS real.

[Jan-Poo]

As well as you are so determined to defend your shipping that you stopped thinking of the possibility that Beatrice is Kanon, Jessica or Shannon :P

[ijriims]

@Jan-Poo: I have removed that part. Sort of forgetting the anime watcher had not yet known that part yet... Sorry.

@Kaiba:What made it so many special that just after Oct 5 midnight that he ceased to become a detective even though his stance (anti-fantasy and seek to find out the human culprit) had not changed at all in EP1 or EP4?

I could say in EP2 his act of conceding Beatrice being the culprit meant he gave up on using humans to explain the crimes made him not a detective anymore. And in EP3, he was shot before mid-night while still being a detective.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by ijriims

@Jan-Poo: I have removed that part. Sort of forgetting the anime watcher had not yet known that part yet... Sorry.

@Kaiba:What made it so many special that just after Oct 5 midnight that he ceased to become a detective even though his stance (anti-fantasy and seek to find out the human culprit) had not changed at all in EP1 or EP4?

I could say in EP2 his act of conceding Beatrice being the culprit meant he gave up on using humans to explain the crimes made him not a detective anymore. And in EP3, he was shot before mid-night while still being a detective.

Because the game's over at midnight and Beatrice can do whatever the heck she wants at that point. Therefore, since the game's over, Battler's no longer the detective.

I was joking about sinking Kinzo/Beatrice by the way, it's just that everyone is so determined to think she isn't real that they've stopped thinking of the possibility that she IS real.

It's more like how do you make her real without ignoring the red truths or proposing some crazy theory like Shkanon.

[Renall]

I always assumed the shipping work^3 meant were:

George/Shannon
Jessica/Kanon
Beatrice(real)/Battler(real)

Obviously this is problematic if Shannon or Jessica is "Beatrice."

My problem is of course that Piece-Battler and "Beatrice" have no relationship at all; Meta-Beatrice and Meta-Battler certainly do, however, but there's not really any actual obstacle to that shipping (short of his philandering with the Stakes). I don't really see Piece-Battler ending up with anybody. And I would be suspicious of the other two shipped pairs because there are so many things about all four of them that are pretty suspicious, even if it turns out to be nothing. Clearly we shouldn't be too accepting of these "happy" couples.

Originally Posted by ijriims

I believed there were already some elements of coincidence in the game: like how Natsuhi avoided death in the 1st twilight in EP1, how the sixes were killed in EP2 and suddenly the siblings were really to solve the epitaph in EP3.

What makes you think these were coincidences? I could see ep3 being a coincidence in the sense that the deaths of the servants preserved all the adults and encouraged them to retreat to the guesthouse where they had what they needed to puzzle it out.

But ep1? Who says Natsuhi was even a target? You can argue that the siblings and their spouses were the targets, but nobody ambushed Eva and Hideyoshi when they left for the night (and it probably wouldn't have been hard unless the killer was elsewhere), and two of the "targets" were servants. Why people were targeted depends strongly on who did it. If you assume Shannon did it and faked her death, she must have had some logical reason to choose her targets. Likewise if Shannon was actually killed; the real killer must have picked targets for a reason.

Convenience would be a good choice either way: All of the dead were alive in the mansion and seemingly awake at midnight. If they were all drugged or picked off individually, it would make sense to use them as victims. Natsuhi was asleep in her room, but one assumes she locked the door first. It may have simply been too much of a risk to the killer to find a key to her door and open it. It may have been the killer's desire that Natsuhi be framed for the crime, but nobody believed she would do it without Erika present to confirm alibis and suggest it.

As for ep2, the deaths of the six are fairly easy to explain as a deliberate targeting of the siblings. The better question is not why the siblings were targeted, but why Rosa survived. There are easy explanations ("Rosa was the killer") and harder ones ("Rosa somehow caught on to something the others missed and escaped" or "Rosa solved the epitaph" or "Rosa wasn't really there").

[ijriims]

Why do I think they were coincidence?

- Natsuhi avoided death because it was just a coincidence that Jessica gave the charm to her while the murderer opened the door and discovered there was a charm behind it.

- I would say Rosa had no incentive to murder the sixes in EP2, just that it was a coincidence that she murdered the sixes without realizing it. They did not know they were dosed, but more deadly, they consumed alcohol in the chapel. The coupling effect killed them.


We approached the same issues so differently such that I saw a coincidence here but you don't. You may see it somewhere else while I don't.

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@Kaiba: We knew the game was started from the moment Beatrice declared its beginning. How do you know the game end at the moment of midnight of Oct5?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Why do I think they were coincidence?

- Natsuhi avoided death because it was just a coincidence that Jessica gave the charm to her while the murderer opened the door and discovered there was a charm behind it.

There is no evidence her door was ever opened.

- I would say Rosa had no incentive to murder the sixes in EP2, just that it was a coincidence that she murdered the sixes without realizing it. They did not know they were dosed, but more deadly, they consumed alcohol in the chapel. The coupling effect killed them.

And then after they died accidentally, she decided to just say the heck with it and cut them open in a gruesome manner?

[Marion]

I think there is a real Beatrice myself. The entire "dream" scenario that Beato had at the start of EP 3 has made me wonder since.

I doubt it was the Beato that gave Kinzo his gold, since she was already a witch.
I also doubt it being the Beato of 1967, because she was questioning why she was the witch when in the dream she wanted to become the witch. 1967 Beatrice was also implied to have been made as she was (looking like the original Beatrice) but in the anime it clearly shows a young girl who looks like Beatrice wanting to become Virgilia's apprentice.

So a third Beatrice probably exists.

In EP 4 especially when Battler meets Beatrice on top of the mansion you have to remember:

1) Battler isn't drunk, like in EP 2, so it doesn't work the way like it did last time.
2) There was nothing magical about that scene either, so it could very well be real.

I dislike the theory that Shannon or Jessica went up there, especially when Battler said that he didn't recognize the voice talking to him on the telephone. There's also no mention of Battler's view being obstructed.

Don't call me a crazy shipper, since I don't seriously ship Battler/Beatrice myself, but I do think there is a merit to a real Beatrice existing that isn't a fake or someone in disguise.

Spoiler for EP 5:

Knox Rules especially - according to Rule 9 (disguises) there need to be hints that someone is disguising as Suit-Beatrice. And please don't use the "Jessica has blond hair and they have similar fashion sense" or anything like that, because that's really lame.

[Renall]

Yet there would also have to be evidence of a Beatrice existing in the first place. There isn't, just a portrait witch. What evidence is there of her being an actual person, and if so, how do you avoid violating the 19th person rule?

For there to be a real Beatrice, we have to accept that:

1) There was a third human Beatrice after the original and 1967 one. We're never shown anything to suggest this, so the only "proof" is that there was a 1967 one which implies one after her. Weak proof.

2) This Beatrice is not on the island at the start of the games OR is disguised as someone else among the 17 living persons. The latter is not evidenced in any strong fashion, and the former implies that this nineteenth person just happens to know the First Twilight has happened and arrives afterwards (remember, real people are unaware of the red, so she has no reason to respect the <18 rule). Yet the ep2 "Beatrice" appeared on the 4th, before there was a murder...

3) It is not more plausible that someone else is disguising as Beatrice instead. Although you said "Jessica looks kind of like her" is weak, it's a lot stronger than these suggestions. At least she physically resembles Beatrice, and there are hints that she may not be the person we expect her to be. It's more likely that Jessica is both Jessica and Beatrice than for a random additional Beatrice to exist. And this isn't even getting into Shannon as a suspect, who has every opportunity to do so.

To say "Well Battler didn't recognize the person, and he wasn't drunk!" is a bit unfair and assumes Battler is omniscient. It's basically saying "If Beatrice were one of the 18, Battler would definitely know it." Well, who says? Kyrie didn't recognize her. Her voice wasn't anything like anyone Battler says he knew, but why is it more plausible to accept an entire person when a person skilled at acting or something is much more logical? And you can't just ignore the distance between Beatrice and Battler and the rain in ep4. Yeah, he says he clearly saw the witch of the portrait, but a good disguise ought to make a person "clearly" someone else... unless you're looking closely.

If a real "Beatrice" exists, we must accept that she somehow always appears on the island in gross violation of the rules (# of people OR Knox), manages to avoid anyone seemingly identifying her, never gets killed (or at least never does in a fashion that makes her identifiable), and never actually really does anything. What possible relevance does a real-Beatrice have to the story? If she's your culprit, then you're just making up Person X again. If she's not the culprit, why is she there? Why isn't she interacting with anyone? What purpose does she have in the story?

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yet there would also have to be evidence of a Beatrice existing in the first place. There isn't, just a portrait witch. What evidence is there of her being an actual person, and if so, how do you avoid violating the 19th person rule?

For there to be a real Beatrice, we have to accept that:

1) There was a third human Beatrice after the original and 1967 one. We're never shown anything to suggest this, so the only "proof" is that there was a 1967 one which implies one after her. Weak proof.

2) This Beatrice is not on the island at the start of the games OR is disguised as someone else among the 17 living persons. The latter is not evidenced in any strong fashion, and the former implies that this nineteenth person just happens to know the First Twilight has happened and arrives afterwards (remember, real people are unaware of the red, so she has no reason to respect the <18 rule). Yet the ep2 "Beatrice" appeared on the 4th, before there was a murder...

3) It is not more plausible that someone else is disguising as Beatrice instead. Although you said "Jessica looks kind of like her" is weak, it's a lot stronger than these suggestions. At least she physically resembles Beatrice, and there are hints that she may not be the person we expect her to be. It's more likely that Jessica is both Jessica and Beatrice than for a random additional Beatrice to exist. And this isn't even getting into Shannon as a suspect, who has every opportunity to do so.

To say "Well Battler didn't recognize the person, and he wasn't drunk!" is a bit unfair and assumes Battler is omniscient. It's basically saying "If Beatrice were one of the 18, Battler would definitely know it." Well, who says? Kyrie didn't recognize her. Her voice wasn't anything like anyone Battler says he knew, but why is it more plausible to accept an entire person when a person skilled at acting or something is much more logical? And you can't just ignore the distance between Beatrice and Battler and the rain in ep4. Yeah, he says he clearly saw the witch of the portrait, but a good disguise ought to make a person "clearly" someone else... unless you're looking closely.

If a real "Beatrice" exists, we must accept that she somehow always appears on the island in gross violation of the rules (# of people OR Knox), manages to avoid anyone seemingly identifying her, never gets killed (or at least never does in a fashion that makes her identifiable), and never actually really does anything. What possible relevance does a real-Beatrice have to the story? If she's your culprit, then you're just making up Person X again. If she's not the culprit, why is she there? Why isn't she interacting with anyone? What purpose does she have in the story?

Being the detective and all kind of helps affirming that assumption, huh?

I'm assuming she's the mysterious staker meant to trigger Battler's memory.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yet there would also have to be evidence of a Beatrice existing in the first place. There isn't, just a portrait witch. What evidence is there of her being an actual person, and if so, how do you avoid violating the 19th person rule?

For there to be a real Beatrice, we have to accept that:

1) There was a third human Beatrice after the original and 1967 one. We're never shown anything to suggest this, so the only "proof" is that there was a 1967 one which implies one after her. Weak proof.

2) This Beatrice is not on the island at the start of the games OR is disguised as someone else among the 17 living persons. The latter is not evidenced in any strong fashion, and the former implies that this nineteenth person just happens to know the First Twilight has happened and arrives afterwards (remember, real people are unaware of the red, so she has no reason to respect the <18 rule). Yet the ep2 "Beatrice" appeared on the 4th, before there was a murder...

3) It is not more plausible that someone else is disguising as Beatrice instead. Although you said "Jessica looks kind of like her" is weak, it's a lot stronger than these suggestions. At least she physically resembles Beatrice, and there are hints that she may not be the person we expect her to be. It's more likely that Jessica is both Jessica and Beatrice than for a random additional Beatrice to exist. And this isn't even getting into Shannon as a suspect, who has every opportunity to do so.

To say "Well Battler didn't recognize the person, and he wasn't drunk!" is a bit unfair and assumes Battler is omniscient. It's basically saying "If Beatrice were one of the 18, Battler would definitely know it." Well, who says? Kyrie didn't recognize her. Her voice wasn't anything like anyone Battler says he knew, but why is it more plausible to accept an entire person when a person skilled at acting or something is much more logical? And you can't just ignore the distance between Beatrice and Battler and the rain in ep4. Yeah, he says he clearly saw the witch of the portrait, but a good disguise ought to make a person "clearly" someone else... unless you're looking closely.

If a real "Beatrice" exists, we must accept that she somehow always appears on the island in gross violation of the rules (# of people OR Knox), manages to avoid anyone seemingly identifying her, never gets killed (or at least never does in a fashion that makes her identifiable), and never actually really does anything. What possible relevance does a real-Beatrice have to the story? If she's your culprit, then you're just making up Person X again. If she's not the culprit, why is she there? Why isn't she interacting with anyone? What purpose does she have in the story?

1) I already explained the dream sequence as possible proof.

2) I'm not saying the Suit Beato in EP 2 is real - I think she is a fake because of the red. However when it comes to EP 4 that's a different story.

3) It's possible there is a person like Shannon who probably dresses up as Beato to fool Maria. However, I do believe there is still another Beato: a real one that is her own being and not someone in disguise.

But it was raining outside and the Beatrice that Battler met threw away her umbrella. If she was in disguise the make up would get ruined and so would the hair. It would make more sense for someone to try and keep up the disguise by keeping the umbrella rather than discarding it. As for drunk Battler - that scene he met Suit Beato in EP 2 also had a living Kinzo and golden butterflies, so the scene is fake for sure.

And whose to say she doesn't just appear on the island. Look at Erika - one minute she's not there and the next she is. It's pretty much established that Rokkenjima isn't a closed area to some degree if people can pop up in it so easily.

I don't think a real Beatrice is the culprit. What purpose does she have in the story? Battler's sin - she's the one who questions him to begin with. She was probably faking being smashed too, considering how sober she suddenly became when talking about his sin.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Being the detective and all kind of helps affirming that assumption, huh?

I'm assuming she's the mysterious staker meant to trigger Battler's memory.

Not really. Being the detective doesn't mean being omniscient. If there's a detail, Battler won't necessarily find it. Say in the ep1 Second Twilight, the killer really was still in the room. If Battler were omniscient in his role as detective, he would have located anyone who was hiding in the room. In ep2 and beyond, Beatrice uses red to more or less "confirm" that everyone's search of a room (like Jessica's) didn't miss anything.

But we can't assume just because the detective is around that he won't miss details. Merely, he will not be misled by deceptive story presentation. He's clearly being misled by deceptive people; if Battler couldn't be fooled at all, the killers in every episode would need to avoid him at all costs. Therefore, it's not unreasonable he could be misled by a person who appears to him to look and sound unfamiliar. We just know that he was not lied to that this mysterious person appeared to him. He may have been dealing with a person in disguise all the same.

And Marion, I'm afraid your points don't seem to make a lot of sense. Narratively, merely being the person who remembers the sin is a bit odd. First of all, it's not between him and her, so why does she even know about it? It implies that not only does a "real Beatrice" exist, she's been around the island for years and nobody but Maria has even heard of her. And then it further suggests that Beatrice knows the sin, and remembers it, and considers it important that Battler remember... but she's not actually going to do anything to make him remember (if we're assuming she's not the culprit). How does that make any narrative sense? Because of Battler's sin, people die. Human beings kill other human beings. But if we believe there's some real-Beatrice around, she's not doing it. Yet by your explanation, her plan would seemingly depend upon someone being killed. How will she manage to stake bodies or whatever if no one gets murdered?

And it still doesn't explain how this Person X Beatrice avoids the red text.