2010-05-04, 07:20 | Link #7041 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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it has nothing to do with "promised land" because aside from a small group of jewish extremists, no one wants to live in the west bank its not religion thats keeping this conflict alight its a refusal by the Palestinian leadership to compromise about anything its either all or nothing as far as they are concerned, which is why they still, to this day, have nothing these peace talks are going to fail, just like the last 20 years of peace talks did
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2010-05-04, 08:41 | Link #7042 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Of course it is a matter of religion. If it wasn't why does the state of Israel even exist? It was created as a nation for religious reasons. Only problem is, equally religious people already lived there. Zionist Jews and Palestinian Muslims are on average just too intense about their religions. Give it a rest, look at the world around you, breathe deep, and toss out the 3000 year old fairy tales. At least that is my take.
Also I am not anti-religious just anti-fundamentalist so don't interpret my message as such. |
2010-05-04, 09:02 | Link #7043 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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The point is that each and every part of these texts are singled out and solely interpreted to substantiate for personal deeds. In other words, the books have nothing but a provision of a variety of "moral" excuses for inhumane deeds. It is either Gabriel/Azrael/any other angel have lousy PR and communication skills (obviously because they speak in such an ambiguous and archaic way), or that the preachers simply interpreted it to further their personal goals.
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2010-05-04, 09:18 | Link #7044 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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Zionism, at least in its origin is the idea that, the Jewish people, are exactly that a people a nation in exile and as a people, are entitled to self determination just like all other people and guess what, the world more or less agreed with them even DECADES before the holocaust the balfur declaration was given during the days of WWI the league of nations mandate for the british in palestine makes it clear that they are to set the grounds for the creation of the jewish national home IN palestine years before world war II the US house of representitives also passed a resolution supporting this in 1922 (resolution 360) "god" has nothing to do with the formation of the state of israel the original zionists were also considerably more secular then you realize the founder hertzel actually made it clear that the rabbies would remain in their temples, just as the army would remain in its bases and the REALLY insanely fundamentalist jews, actually OPPOSE the idea of the state of israel, for what they claim are religious reasons (they don't believe in jews taking control of their own fate) the question is basically this do you see jews as simply a religion and nothing else or as a nationality, culture, customs, language, etc in other words, a people, in the same way that the British are a people and the French are a people israel is the product of people who believe the second option
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2010-05-04, 10:09 | Link #7045 | |
Rawrrr!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CH aka Chocaholic Heaven
Age: 40
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I don't contend that the Jewish people was accepted as a Nation and entitled to self determination. But the problem is that it was done at the expense of the self determination rights of other peoples, which was normal practice in the still colonial background of the first half of the XXth century, but is pretty much condemned in every other part of the world nowadays. About the concept of Israel's fading, I wasn't exactly thinking about the the Israeli Arabs, but about the much more numerous Palestinians Arabs, if we consider the following perspective. Of course there will be no peace if both parties continue clinging to the ideas of a Greater Israel and the restoration of an Arab Palestine. But the thing is, the current reasonable peace option, that of two (or three?) separate states, if we look at the History and the nature of the current socio-economic ties and desequelibrium, resembles a "Banthoustanization" of Palestinian territories. And on mid-long term, I have serious doubts on the stability of it, given the historical precedence, even if everybody were to cheer for it.
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2010-05-04, 10:40 | Link #7046 | ||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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none of the countries in the area (syria, lebanon, iraq, israel, and jorden) were countries before WWI, and all were created following it and more importantly, "palestine" was an area that contained both modern day israel AND jorden (as well as the west bank and gaza) the formation of jorden (75% of historical palestine), SHOULD have cleared the whole "self-determination" bit for the arabs the arabs of palestine didn't exactly get skimped out on land, since jorden contains so much more of historic palestine then israel does except that AFTER the formation of jorden, the arabs STILL refused to accept a jewish state in Palestine on even SOME of the remaining 25% there is a general misconception about the 1947 partition plan it wasn't "jews get 55% and arabs get 45% of the territory of palestine" since "palestine" also includes jorden it was "jews get 12% of palestine, the arabs get the other 88% divided between jorden and a NEW arab state" Quote:
a few million palestinian more wont change a thing if they aren't actually part of israel demographically and since they are saying very clearly that they want their own country, they aren't likely to BE part of Israel anyway Quote:
even the corrent israeli right-wing goverment states that there would be a two state solution eventually as far as israel is concerned the dispute is no longer on the WHAT (a palestinian state) but rather on "on what areas of the map" the problem is that the palestinians have yet to give up on the "restoration of an Arab Palestine", and other forces in the area (syria, iran, hizballa) keep telling them "go for it" the day when a palestinian leader decides that the interest of his people are more important then his own personal pride, would be the day that peace can come the problem is that this day is still years away Quote:
the palestinians have no central goverment anymore after hamas took control of gaza negotiations only work if the guy doing the negotiating can actually deliver, and the palestinian authority can't
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2010-05-04 at 10:56. |
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2010-05-04, 11:50 | Link #7047 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Idiocracy here we come. i don't know about Europe but in Asia, the gift kids are actually reward for doing great. In the US if you do great in school they will cut your funding.
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2010-05-04, 12:03 | Link #7048 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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As a matter of fact, "Loopy" has become the the unofficial nickname for Hatoyama in the past three weeks, and the frustrated public is using it as a criticism ammunition in addressing the PM's nutty cluelessness. In other words, thank you Washington post for providing a fititng, great nickname for our PM.
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2010-05-04, 12:26 | Link #7049 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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My only comment on the Israel/Palestination debate is that its a failure to compromise in specific areas on both sides and a failure to control particularly obstinate zealots on both sides -- and that its a lot more about *land**resources* (agriculture, water rights, mineral rights) than anything else. A few extra negrep goes to the Palestinian side for having massively corrupt politicians in charge who abuse their own citizens.
The religion is an easy pretext to rile the populations up on both sides. Another reason religion and government power have no business being mixed and to be very suspicious of anyone waving flag and religious icon.
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2010-05-04, 12:56 | Link #7050 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I went through one of the best high schools in France. We didn't have the fancy computer labs or 20-student classes problem schools were gifted with. So when I hear them decried as elitist and unfair, I can't decide whether I should laugh or rage. |
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2010-05-04, 16:33 | Link #7051 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Besides, let's not think Western approval is justification of anything, especially in the time period you're talking about. The US passed that resolution right on the tail end of a century long slaughtering of the native inhabitants of America. Kinda removes their credibility for me... |
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2010-05-04, 16:46 | Link #7052 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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it was a PRACTICAL one the zionist movment was working on creating a jewish state, but for that to happen, you needed jews to actually GO there and getting jews from different places to agree on something is a very hard thing to do (like herding cats) and this is especially true, since the new state would NOT be in europe one way or another (at one point, there was talk on forming it in Uganda) so the zionist movment needed to choose a place that would actually attract jews jews had spent 2000 years dreaming of retuning to their long lost homeland by creating the new state right where the old one used to be, you are creating a direct link to that 2000 year old dream how else do you convince jews from all over the world to leave their old lives behind and move to the middle of the desert to start building a country from nothing how many people do YOU know who would leave everything behind and move to modern day Africa it was about motivating people, and for THAT, you need more then just the promise of a "state" you need a symbol to rally people behind something that would drive people to leave their homes and venture into the middle of nowhere in search of a dream "a homeland" "THE homeland" the one they spent 2000 years dreaming of and it worked like a charm it drove hundreds of thousands of jews from all over the world to converge on a piece of desert in one of the most hostile areas on earth, and in the middle of nowhere they started building a country its still working today, as even on a slow year you have tens of thousands of jews immigrating to israel every year
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2010-05-04 at 17:06. |
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2010-05-04, 18:38 | Link #7053 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Sounds really ideological and not very realistic or fair to me. There were already people who thought that 'piece of the desert' was their sacred homeland. Yeah, I understand your sentiment for wanting a Jewish nation. That really isn't justification for it, though, more just the reason why it happened.
My post does not dispute history, just whether the history was the right thing to do. So not really understanding that petition I got. Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2010-05-05 at 08:43. |
2010-05-05, 03:20 | Link #7054 | |
Hyakko Fanboy
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 32
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I blame my idiotic Parliament and collegians because keep bitchin" on her without praising GREAT work of her. I don't know again about what future this country gonna be, Smart people always leavin" and the idiots stay. This news really shock me, and I'm not even care about my bad grammar on this post.
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2010-05-05, 04:50 | Link #7055 | |
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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From what I understand, the Jewish culture and faith dates back to around 3000 years ago. They were then exiled sometime in mid 500 BCE (but returned sometime after). So, I think if you are to compare them to the British or the French in terms of ownership of land, would you count the civilization that was there before them? And on the same token, in terms of viewing them as a nationality with its own culture, would one say the same for the Romans? Would it be justified if we had a group of Romans who now claim all the areas that used to be their empire? I think the thing with that argument is -- how far back can we go in terms of saying that a land belongs to a particular group? I think it is a hard question to ask and to answer. But I guess the problem with Israel as it exists now lies in the novelty of its creation -- it was created in modern times, and the mandate by the League of Nations are viewed by some as a form of remuneration for all the wrongs that they suffered. I can't say it was the wrong thing to do nor can I say it is right. I have no idea and it is way too complicated to contemplate. What I can say is that I find the concept extremely foreign -- would we be able to accept such an act nowadays, by any government or a collection thereof? And as to the question of whether religion is a factor in exacerbating the conflict, I find it hard for anyone to deny that religion plays a role. When thinking about it, I see the fundamental divergence which causes us to have different views: One view is to say that religion, in and of itself, the way it is written, is not meant to be used the way it is, as a justification for the means employed. So, this view puts the blame on those who use religion in a way that it is not meant to be used. Ergo, religion is not to blame. Another view, and this is the way I see it, religion is what you make of it. There is of course a set script, but there are also people who go off script in the name of religion, and I think those who are arguing against religion being a factor cites the separation of the two. I view it as intrinsically linked. I'm not saying religion is bad per se -- in fact, it is completely necessary or else it wouldn't be around for this long. I think man was put on earth, and he first found religion and then a way to make wine. But I am saying that when you say you do things in the name of your religion, then I'm not going just to blame you as an individual, I will also look at your religion and question the things in that religion that gave you that view. For example, imagine a hypothetical in which religious teachings don't condemn homosexuality, and the phrase "thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" was stricken from the Bible. Would more people accept homosexuality then? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact that the phrase is in the Bible justifies those who say that the Bible erodes the acceptance of homosexuality, and that such a phrasing from the Bible, believed by so many, can influence people, including parents who in turn influence and raise their children in accordance to certain viewpoints. So, I don't think you can blame just the zealots nor can you just blame the religion. I think that both, taken in conjunction with each other, results in zealots who feel justified in their beliefs as well as their means to their ends. |
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2010-05-05, 05:10 | Link #7056 | |
~AD~
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Those parliaments guys wants her to quit and force all the blame into her. Yes, she now quits as a finance minister, but will be appointed as one of director of World Bank. Great, stocks has been plunging since the news started, and its only two days. I wish i have means to blow up that parliament house... |
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2010-05-05, 05:26 | Link #7057 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Since Indonesia is considered a very patriarchal state due to Islam as its main religion being heavily practiced, I wasn't surprised that chauvinism, combined with relative incompetency of the government, forced her out. I know I am inviting negreps for lambasting the Indonesian government, and that's due to stating facts being more important than being politically correct. Chill man. If you think like that, you will be no different from the JI guy which burned off precious weekends of 18 year old males serving their national service.
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2010-05-05, 08:27 | Link #7058 | ||
Hyakko Fanboy
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 32
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God... ok, granted. Monkey which can only "booooo"ing on Parliament Council win, and the only people who actually make this Country better will work for other side pigs. I hope the next Finance Minister will from Professional side, can't leave this spot for those Politic Party. Quote:
These day on this country, Party Politic even choose to nominate Idiot Porn Star as Parliament member, and Province leader. And most of it get what they want ROFLMAO. This country have no future and shame anymore... even the only one brilliant economic heroes choose to leave
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2010-05-05, 09:35 | Link #7059 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boston
Age: 35
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2010-05-05, 10:43 | Link #7060 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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If they are shooting any other kind, it would be ridiculous. But I understand their reason for shooting dogs, although it may seem out of place to the general uninformed public.
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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