Anime or not?

[Kirarakim]

Actually when I say I like anime the response is usually oh so you like Pokemon or you like that weird hentai stuff

edit: Last Sinner I think we just posted the exact same thing at the same time.

But what Triple R says about anime being akin to foreign film is interesting because I do love foreign film and actually do think my love of anime is similar in comparison.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kudryavka, here's the thing - Most adult anime fans don't want to say to their non-anime fan friends that "I'm a hardcore cartoon fan". Like it or not, "cartoon" carries a certain connotation in the west. We don't have to like it, but we do have to live with it.

And saying "I'm a hardcore animation fan" is liable to get responses like "Oh? So you're into the Pixar movies then?" or people thinking you're a poser for using 'animation' instead of 'cartoon'.

But if you say "I'm an anime fan", your non-anime fan friends may well read that as being akin to you saying "I'm a fan of foreign films". They'll probably think that makes you eccentric, but hopefully in a neat sort of way. They might even think you're more "cultured" for it, lol.

I understand the connotation, I just wish it were different.

And I thought anime has bad connotations in English too? I wish I had cohorts like yours, my peers think "anime" means Pokemon and Naruto and tentacle stuff. I always say "I like Japanese animation", they think I mean classy stuff like Miyazaki (in their minds). Or I just say "I like animation".

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

I understand the connotation, I just wish it were different.

And I thought anime has bad connotations in English too? I wish I had cohorts like yours, my peers think "anime" means Pokemon and tentacle stuff. I always say "I like Japanese animation", they think I mean classy stuff like Miyazaki (in their minds).

That's a normal person's connotation. In America, anime = cartoons = for kids or anime = hentai/ero/porn
Fan connotation = anime = from Japan

In Japan, I assume Miyazaki, Evangelion, Shin-Chan, Maruko, Doreamon, Conan = anime. Anything else = what otaku watch.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

I understand the connotation, I just wish it were different.

And I thought anime has bad connotations in English too? I wish I had cohorts like yours, my peers think "anime" means Pokemon and tentacle stuff. I always say "I like Japanese animation", they think I mean classy stuff like Miyazaki (in their minds).

Were I live, in rural eastern Canada, a lot of people don't know what anime is, so saying "I'm an anime fan" just sounds esoteric and foreign to them. Those that do know what anime is, tend to associate it with DBZ, Sailor Moon, and Pokemon, which were all totally mainstream, and covered almost every demographic group between the three of them (young adult men talking openly about DBZ is no big deal where I live).

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Were I live, in rural eastern Canada, a lot of people don't know what anime is, so saying "I'm an anime fan" just sounds esoteric and foreign to them. Those that do know what anime is, tend to associate it with DBZ, Sailor Moon, and Pokemon, which were all totally mainstream, and covered almost every demographic group between the three of them (young adult men talking openly about DBZ is no big deal where I live).

Oh, it might be a location thing as well then. Where I live everyone under the age of 40 knows what anime is, mostly through Pokemon or Dragonball or one of the big 3 shounen

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Seeing how no other country gets the privilege of having its animation being called a special name, apparently not.

The US gets that privilege as well , in France you'll find people who call themselves "Cartoon" fans which is different from a dessin animé
"Cartoon" in France really refers to the short 1930s-1950s era animation such as looney tunes.

In printed works the french make a distinction between a "comic", "bandes dessinés" and "manga". Even though there's similarities between the three mediums.

The one fustration I have is that the general public tends to use "manga" instead of "animé" so I end up hearing people say "I watch mangas on TV" , it seems as if correcting them is a losing battle.

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by totoum

The one fustration I have is that the general public tends to use "manga" instead of "animé" so I end up hearing people say "I watch mangas on TV" , it seems as if correcting them is a losing battle.

It doesn't help that the company called "Manga Entertainment" mainly distributes anime.

edit: Apparently, there's also an anime channel in France called Mangas. That does not help either.

[Vexx]

I'll just copy/paste my previous comment in this merged thread -

If it feels like anime, exudes japanese cultural values, and is directed/produced by japanese, sure I'll call it anime. Where the frames are actually made is secondary.

I find getting hung up on taxonomy or worrying whether one should like a series or not based on some labeling system to be as tiresome as someone who is stuck in one tiny rut of one kind of music they listen to.

[ujiuji]

To me "anime" is no more than a convenient shorthand for "animation produced primarily for a Japanese audience". I don't assign it a different rank to other types of animation, but there is a lot of it so it's useful to have a word to use when discussing it. There's a large community of western fans who use the term "anime" so why not go with the flow?
However when talking to non-fans I usually call it "Japanese animation" rather than "anime" or "animation produced primarily for a Japanese audience".

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by ujiuji

To me "anime" is no more than a convenient shorthand for "animation produced primarily for a Japanese audience".

Except. that would completely knock out Afro Samurai, because it wasn't made exclusively for the "Japanese audience". It was originally voiced in English. Correct me if I am wrong; but Afro Samurai was made for American audiences, when its debut was on SpikeTV.

So, what now? Afro Samurai isn't anime because it wasn't made for the Japanese audience? Of course not.

For any anime "definition" produced, there will always be an exception and inconsistency. This is a topic of art and culture, not science. If there isn't one, something will come along. On top of that, the question of "what is anime or not" is not a black-and-white topic. It never was and never will be, but people refuse to acknowledge that.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Except. that would completely knock out Afro Samurai, because it wasn't made exclusively for the "Japanese audience". It was originally voiced in English. Correct me if I am wrong; but Afro Samurai was made for American audiences, when its debut was on SpikeTV.

So, what now? Afro Samurai isn't anime because it wasn't made for the Japanese audience? Of course not.

For any anime "definition" produced, there will always be an exception and inconsistency. This is a topic of art and culture, not science. If there isn't one, something will come along. On top of that, the question of "what is anime or not" is not a black-and-white topic. It never was and never will be, but people refuse to acknowledge that.

Neither ujiuji nor I said our rule of thumb was an iron-clad rule pf black and white. If you want my opinion on Afro Samurai, I have a hard time characterizing it as anime though it was produced BY japanese, it wasn't aimed AT japanese audiences. Like the pirate says, "it's more of a guideline".

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Neither ujiuji nor I said our rule of thumb was an iron-clad rule pf black and white. If you want my opinion on Afro Samurai, I have a hard time characterizing it as anime though it was produced BY japanese, it wasn't aimed AT japanese audiences. Like the pirate says, "it's more of a guideline".

Well, if you can get rid of Afro Samurai from all these "anime lists" like that of MAL and ANN, then you have made an accomplishment.

[Kudryavka]

Afro Samurai is a Japanese animation because it was done in Japan by a Japanese company, Gonzo.

Whether or not being Japanese animation makes it a "tru anime", I guess some people will differ. Again we have a problem, what is "anime"? Is it something made by Japanese companies? Is it something simply emulating a Japanese animation style? Does it have to be aimed at Japanese audiences? What is true anime?

Now I will go play my geemus now. JRPGs ftw

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Afro Samurai is a Japanese animation because it was done in Japan by a Japanese company, Gonzo.

Whether or not being Japanese animation makes it a "tru anime", I guess some people will differ. Again we have a problem, what is "anime"? Is it something made by Japanese companies? Is it something simply emulating a Japanese animation style? Does it have to be aimed at Japanese audiences? What is true anime?

Now I will go play my geemus now. JRPGs ftw

In film, the genre Film Noir is debated quite fiercely as well (in fact there is even debates whether it is a genre or style) and yet Film Noir is very much a term to describe certain films.

I personally don't really think Afro Samurai as an anime because it wasn't really produced for a Japanese audience (I feel the same way about the Animatrix).

But I guess you can say these are sort of on the fence series for me.

I wouldn't really tell someone they are wrong if they did call these titles anime because I guess I can understand the other side of the argument.

[Vexx]

I find it interesting that each time I say the definitions are simply guidelines and there's a lot of smear (not a clear line), people respond as if I've drawn a hard line. There isn't an easy litmus test that will give a binary yes/no answer in all cases.

[NoemiChan]

I think its time we make a name for a Japanese made anime and another for Western made anime....

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I find it interesting that each time I say the definitions are simply guidelines and there's a lot of smear (not a clear line), people respond as if I've drawn a hard line. There isn't an easy litmus test that will give a binary yes/no answer in all cases.

I do not think your definition is wrong at all, mileage varies.

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I think its time we make a name for a Japanese made anime and another for Western made anime....

1. Japanese animation.
2. insert western country here animation. I assume done in a Japanese style since you said "anime".

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

In film, the genre Film Noir is debated quite fiercely as well (in fact there is even debates whether it is a genre or style) and yet Film Noir is very much a term to describe certain films.

I personally don't really think Afro Samurai as an anime because it wasn't really produced for a Japanese audience (I feel the same way about the Animatrix).

But I guess you can say these are sort of on the fence series for me.

I wouldn't really tell someone they are wrong if they did call these titles anime because I guess I can understand the other side of the argument.

Yeah, I can see your point. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here. Unless someone want to tell me Afro Samurai is not a Japanese animation, in which case that would be a blatant lie...

"anime" is one of those fuzzy words.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I find it interesting that each time I say the definitions are simply guidelines and there's a lot of smear (not a clear line), people respond as if I've drawn a hard line. There isn't an easy litmus test that will give a binary yes/no answer in all cases.

But by definition, that's what a definition is: A hard line. Furthermore, I've been at this argument since 2006, as it was the reason why I have a forum account on ANN. While conducting my arguments, I've had the "anime definition" thing thrown hard at my face, as if it was some immovable and unchangeable definition.

As for 2006, that's when I was thinking: "Hey wait a minute, what can stop white people from making anime too?" My answer to that was: "Why not?"

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

As for 2006, that's when I was thinking: "Hey wait a minute, what can stop white people from making anime too?" My answer to that was: "Why not?"

Well I don't think you have to be Japanese by nationality or birth to make anime but I think you would have to make it for a Japanese audience.

There are non-Japanese who speaking fluently living in Japan. If they made an anime I would still see it as anime.

Now if I made something that looked like an anime I would not consider it anime.

[Vexx]

Okay, this is starting to turn into the "one drop of black blood equal black" kind of hard line - in other words, nonsense. Definitions aren't always "hard line". At some point, fog is just mist. I'm "white" but I'm 1/16 Apache - does that make me Apache? That's what I'm saying - that though we can make a general statement about any concept, there are likely to always be outliers and hybrids that don't quite fit in any simplistic labeling system