2008-12-09, 18:33 | Link #1623 | |||
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Strong, with a normal punching speed. A bullet is light, but rips through concrete too.
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Anyway... Review: Fifty Cal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj3OQ...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckklgMDZKJA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJU8...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Tok...d=event_517309 And Very Important, because this displays the armor penetration of fifty caliber bullets as fired from a barret M-82 sniper rifle... the same size as the M2. (The sound gets out of synch though): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9lMViBr6d8 Fifty cal was made to punch through ARMOR... If a couple fast moving rocks, which have low density and nowhere near the velocity of an actual bullet can do it... A bullet made for the task can do it. A bullet that slices through the engine blocks of cars like a hot knife through butter, goes through manhole covers like they aren't there, smashes concrete blocks and punches right through safes... are most certainly going to do it. EDIT: By the way guys. Concrete is not very strong to impact or cutting. In fact, concrete is extremely brittle and shatters easily. |
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2008-12-09, 20:01 | Link #1624 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Fifty cal isn't even close to being able to penetrate reinforced concrete of the thickness used in actual buildings with a single round. Erio's abilities as demonstrated by the whole walkway-cutting scene are far superior in that respect. Unless you want to go back to 'well obviously Midchilda builds everything out of Styrofoam'.
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2008-12-09, 20:45 | Link #1626 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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The concrete is not suddenly any harder than it was before, it's that the reinforcement bar (REBAR) rods in it help it maintain strength without breaking under tension. As far as that goes, all Erio has to do to compromise that strength outside of cutting the concrete, is to cut the rebar rods buried in the material. Which is nothing like rolled homogenious metal armor. Without the rebar to relieve the tension effects, that concrete's just as brittle as any other concrete. In short, (because I have to go to work now.) It's not that hard. |
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2008-12-10, 00:20 | Link #1628 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Rebar doesn't affect the hardness of the concrete but as you pointed out concrete tends to shatter and rebar helps prevent that, so more rounds are needed to dig through. Also, it makes sense to refer to reinforced concrete when speaking of large structures.
I suppose you're technically correct behind your misplaced condescension though, whether it's reinforced probably makes no difference as to whether one bullet can go through, it just changes the number you need if you decide to use a lot. Many many sarcastic apologies. But all you really pointed out is that the round won't penetrate unreinforced concrete either. Whoops. Anyway, let's reiterate the main point: it would take many hundreds of .50 rounds to just make a hole in that bridge, whereas Erio cut it to pieces in a couple of seconds, so Keroko's example in favor of strong drone armor should stand. Of course, magic can be used as an excuse in your direction too- for example, claiming that Erio only had trouble with the drones because their AMF reduced his normally-impressive attack power to the point where weak, .50-penetrable armor was able to stop him. But you guys seem understandably loathe to use anything that implies 'everything magical is stronger'.
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-12-10 at 00:32. |
2008-12-10, 00:54 | Link #1629 | ||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Lots of fun stuff today.
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Face it, regardless of your views on Paranoia Theory, the reason you didn't support this idea until right about now is because the evidence is going the other way. This will be even more true of a person like you, who holds intent and dialogue in such relative esteem. Quote:
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1) In Mid, both "police" and civvies are allowed to carry devices. 2) With one possible known exception so far, netiher police, civvies or apparently even criminals (as you said, they don't care about law) can get a mass weapon, nor will they seriously think of getting one even when it is useful. Quote:
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IIRC, the Type III has two toughened arms, and using them it can defend reasonably well against magi-blades. However, such dedicated defense are unlikely to be effective against bullets that are fired into all areas of the body faster than the Type III can move its arms to block. Finally, it IS Middie concrete. We've had many chances, thanks to your diligence to observe it in action |
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2008-12-10, 01:07 | Link #1630 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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I doubt Drone armor really is as flimsy as you think it might be.
Saying it can be killed by a falling bridge is a pretty big moot point - barring anything special (like a mage's barrier) pretty much nothing will survive having an entire bridge dropped on top of it. Nanoha might've destroyed some using rocks but she's also Nanoha, who isn't to say she hurled the rocks at their terminal speed at the get-go? Even a small rock moving at its maximum speed would probably pack a punch. Not to mention we don't know how much the rocks weigh - what if the minerals inside them weigh a lot in comparison to the size? Subaru can tackle one but then again she's also extremely powerful to begin with. The Type III's also could stop one of Signum's slashes which has to speak volumes on defensive power. After all Signum in A's was able to hit Fate in a few seconds with enough force to hurl her through a building. I'm sure I might've missed a point or two somewhere.
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2008-12-10, 01:10 | Link #1631 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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The rest of the argument you pretty much argued both sides to and saved us hours of trouble. As far as drones are going to go... Most of the drones encountered are the one meter tall Type I ovoids... cannon fodder in drone form. They're small, light, and from the looks of things like wreckage and combat footage, not armored worth a rats... well. You know. Type IIs, the second most numerous, were the Jet Drones, flying around at high altitude... they also seemed more or less fragile as they took 'bullet damage' from Nanoha and Fate's basic sphere attacks before coming apart. But really there's no clear evidence there to work with unlike the ease we've seen the Type Is get trashed. But given their more or less equally absurd numbers, not very well armored. (Have to be light for manueverability, so armor is out.) Type IIIs, the two/three meter tall sphere drones like the one that gave Erio all his trouble on the train, WOULD be big enough to have semi-decent armor. It has a larger power supply, produces a larger AMF, and is extremely rare compared to the other drones. In fact, it was Erio that first encountered that 'new' drone type on the train. Type IVs aren't a concern, as the only place those showed up in the end was on the CRADLE. In terms of combat measures. An M2 browning would be more than sufficient to deal with the likes of the type I and II drone units. The rapid fire qualities of the HMG would simply be mulching to the Is, and the IIs wouldn't be smart enough to avoid being shot down. The type III drones would present a more difficult target, if by sheer size alone, depending on how much of its shell is actually armor, and how much of its insides are important to functionality. It would soak some damage just like the cars before taking damage to critical points, but that's nothing tossing in an M-79 grenade launcher and 40mm High Explosive Incindiary rounds couldn't fix in a jiff. And as rare as the T-IIIs were compared to everything else, they wouldn't present a significant problem. One man driving the humvee, one man manning the Browning, one man doing the reloading and holding onto the M-79. Drones become merely an annoyance. Now you just watch out for cyborgs. |
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2008-12-10, 01:25 | Link #1632 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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But all you can do is assume. We don't know what the Drones are made of, so you don't know if it's some naturally bullet-proofed metal or perhaps a super light, yet extremely durable one (this mostly applies the flying drones).
Or again for flying drones with magic as a power source I seriously doubt weight really has much of anything to do with it.
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2008-12-10, 02:34 | Link #1633 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Here's how: Subaru air tackled one from a dead stop and brought it to the ground. That takedown had nothing to do with her cyborg strength, only body weight, because she had no point in which to leverage herself to utilize that strength when she was in mid-air. That purely physical move showed us the drone was comparatively equal to, or lighter than herself with the ease in which she managed to tackle it, meaning the drone has very little 'antigrav' thrust ability (It couldn't lift her off or lift off with her on it.), and that it cannot be carrying a very high mass of any realistic existing armor material. As for not knowing what the drones are made of. Standard rules apply. If your theorized super material isn't mentioned, it doesn't exist. And as far as 'bullet proofed' metal goes... there are some metals that could do it... They are called... tungsten carbide, and depleted uranium. The problem however, is they both weigh a helluva lot and are both high end materials. T-Carbide is a high density composite metal made with semi-rare tungsten, and depleted uranium is made from Uranium ore, which is considered a rare and limited resource as well. Both of which would be resource costly and prohibitive to armoring throw-away drones with in layers thick enough to be effective in the numbers we see them. Just face it. They're DRONES. Even Jail considered them nothing more than 'toys' with which to distract the mages. They're cheap, easy to manufacture en-mass, and not a significant investiment of his limited resources. It would be completely illogical to make these cheap individually ineffective units out to be some kind of super capable fighting system that only mages can stop when we see they're quite effectively put down by rookies. Considering that they were tailored for fighting (distracting) mages, defense against physical material attack was logically, not a high priority. If they were, a more logical method of using them would be to take these semi-capable drones, and make some kind of type V drone that would be tough enough to force the Aces to expend vast amounts of power on one, and make a hundred or so of THOSE, instead of a hundred thousand semi-tough ones that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag in a termite colony. |
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2008-12-10, 04:40 | Link #1634 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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uh...Right.
first off, the rocks weren't "fist sized". http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...StrikerS/1/21/ More like *at least* half a meter big. Second, drones are powered by jewel seeds (though maybe of lesser quality). iirc, jewel seeds can do some pretty nice powing of objects (hundreds of meters wide tree in a short time etc). As i said, Subaru was fighting against an holo, and you claim about physics with this movement doesn't take into account internal magic at all. Drones aren't "easily put down by rookies". Erio has been shown to have high-cutting power and high-strength but still seem to be struggling breaking one. As does Subaru. http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...StrikerS/4/18/ This is an example of subaru strength when she had barely any training. Honestly, by the *beginning* of strikerS she should probably be able to toss tanks around. Nanoha has been shown to be able to life magically a pretty heavy looking statue too during the airport incident, for exemple. Your "fireball" exemple means nothing. We have no knoweldge of the temperature, nor of any other proprieties of the flame. Also, the drones didn't look *that* much affected the first time she did this. Oh Well. i could easily see Earth tanks being nothing more than scrap for the drones, but i am aware that i take "high-end nanohaverse". Still, it is annoying when you consciously give false info. |
2008-12-10, 05:13 | Link #1635 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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Perhaps you should think from a plot point of view. Drones are stormtroopers, cheap red shirts, whose toughness and actual fighting efficiency changes according to the needs of the plot.
However, if I had to think from a logical "trying to make sense out of this shit" point of view, and this is my usual approach (in worldbuilding), Jail made the drones not as tough. They are distractions and nuisances, just like Zerglings. |
2008-12-10, 05:46 | Link #1636 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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2008-12-10, 06:20 | Link #1637 | ||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Not exactly a lot of time for extended replies, it's quite busy at work, so I'll be responding in short bursts.
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However, they are not completely helples. Concidering the level of power shown to take them down on several occasions, it's very likely to assume that handguns, which Runessa needs a special permit for, are less effective, if not completely useless against them. Quote:
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The type I's could use their manouverabillity to dodge and swarm, though this may require manual input. Quote:
It also should be noted that Subaru did not destroy the drone untill she had it pinned and started drilling into it. With the power she has shown, that would mean the armor is above average. Quote:
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And I agree that the 'it's a holo' esxcuse doesn't fly either way. Quote:
Then how about Nanoha lifting a swarm of rocks about her size and tossing them at the drones? Also, halting a heavy object from falling takes more effort then lfiting it from the ground. Not to mention she kept it suspended in the air, rather then put it down, and proceeded to cast several spells while keeping it in the air. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-12-10 at 07:19. |
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2008-12-10, 07:17 | Link #1638 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Frankly, Jail would have been in a lot more trouble had he used drones with high attacking power, causing waves he couldn't control. Quote:
Different cases. Quote:
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2008-12-10, 09:12 | Link #1639 |
Beta by Accident
Author
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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Probably dangerous to be tossing myself into the middle of an argument like this, but mission profile has to be considered as well when hypothesizing what these drones can do. Jail designed them to operate primarily against mages, after all, not on non-administered worlds operating with mass weapons, so he included AMF as their primary defensive measure. This pretty well nerfs the average mage "grunt," particularly the Mid-styled one, who can't cast pure magic attacks into the field from outside it, or even cast spells from within it.
I'm willing to accept that that an M2 or similar Earth-based weaponry would be able to deal with the Gadget Drones we see in-series, particularly Type Is and IIs, simply because there's no reason for Jail to include heavy physical armor in his redshirt grunts. If he was sending them in against enemies that shoot bullets, he'd probably rewire them to provide barrier or shield defenses rather than AMF (why burn the power on an AMF field if you're fighting a non-magical enemy?) for his hypothetical Type I-A. (Now, then we're into the age-old debate of how effective magic is vis-a-vis mass weaponry, but that's a different argument.) As for the rest of it (with regard to evidence), I'd suggest strongly that the physical armor strength of Drones in-series, since it's never defined by statistics and "game-system" function, will vary from episode to episode at the behest of plot. Subaru tackling one, bringing it down, and drilling through it? Looks damn cool, which is what matters at the point. |
2008-12-10, 10:25 | Link #1640 | |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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EDIT: I think in the books Zerglings can actually take a fair amount of abuse from a Marine's weapon. Though Firebats roast them nice.
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