[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

I always wondered what would happen if Natsuhi just... told everybody someone was trying to blackmail her. She doesn't have to say why, after all; the onus would then be on everybody else to stake a claim as to why someone would be trying to do that to her and she happens to have an incredibly convenient alternative motive to which she can confess (related to the baby and thus not anything to do with present-day Kinzo specifically).

Plus then if someone called to tell her to go to a specific bedroom she could just tell everybody that someone called and told her to do that. It'd completely screw everything up.

Of course nobody would do this because it's a mystery and "no one would believe me," but seriously, they don't even have to believe you to mess everything up. Hideyoshi's "death" only works because Natsuhi was in there. If she tells everybody not to go to that bedroom and then doesn't, especially if they start keeping watch over her, she can't be responsible for it and it just wouldn't happen.

I'm honestly more amused with the way nobody seems to have any problem believing Natsuhi was physically capable of the supposed First Twilight murders. It seems really hard to kill a half-dozen people all in a single room, even if they're asleep. People tend not to be asleep very long if you start trying to kill them with a knife. Then again, Natsuhi just believes the murders happened too and doesn't really question it, so I'm going to guess it's a genre thing.

Well, if I were to be the murder of the first twilight I would probably drug my targets so they wouldn't wake up.

There's also to say Natsuhi might suspect one of the siblings of being the one blackmailing her. Before they 'kidnapped' Krauss it was fine but afterward, if she confess she's being blackmailed, the kidnapper can kill Krauss.

I guess it doesn't help that Erika looks against her and doesn't have the look of a reliable detective.

I mean, if Poirot or Holmes were there I could totally see Natsuhi going to him and telling:
Mr., I've to tell you confidential information. I'm being blackmailed to do this and that for this and that reason. I swear it's the truth. Can you help me?

But with Erika, whom Natsuhi even suspected of being the man of 19 years ago and that tries so hard to frame Natsuhi as culprit...

[Renall]

Sure, I'm definitely referring to telling someone before anyone is "killed" or kidnapped. It's a genre convention not to, but confiding in somebody trustworthy (Battler? I dunno) surely could've helped her. And again, she can confess... to the baby thing, and deflect attention from Kinzo.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Sure, I'm definitely referring to telling someone before anyone is "killed" or kidnapped. It's a genre convention not to, but confiding in somebody trustworthy (Battler? I dunno) surely could've helped her. And again, she can confess... to the baby thing, and deflect attention from Kinzo.

She should have told someone... but Natsuhi is way too prideful so I'm not sure if she would have admitted the whole baby thing.

Though she could have lied and insisted on the 'it was only an incident and I wasn't even present and this guy is accusing me of something I didn't do' line.
Actually she didn't even have to tell Kinzo handed her the baby because she couldn't have kids. She could say Kinzo had took in the baby because... it was the kid of a deceased friend or something.

But well, I guess the fact she were to talk would definitely cause troubles for the plot... in many stories the characters never do the smart thing...

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

I always wondered what would happen if Natsuhi just... told everybody someone was trying to blackmail her. She doesn't have to say why, after all; the onus would then be on everybody else to stake a claim as to why someone would be trying to do that to her and she happens to have an incredibly convenient alternative motive to which she can confess (related to the baby and thus not anything to do with present-day Kinzo specifically).

It'd screw up the blackmailer's plans, sure, but Natsuhi's problem was that she was... being blackmailed.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Erika acknowledged that Battler had the ring

And Natsuhi agreed that Battler got the ring in an internal monologue.

Okay, I guess I jumped the gun. It's fine, though, I prefer it this way.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Concerning Genji's surprise, you can read it in two ways.
1) He was genuinely surprised that the true heir gave up the ring and handed it to somebody else.
2) He was simply pointing out the ring to draw Krauss' attention to it, as he was already aware of the fact that the ring would be handed over to the person who solved the epitaph.

The scene screams #2 to me.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

But well, I guess the fact she were to talk would definitely cause troubles for the plot... in many stories the characters never do the smart thing...

Natsuhi's pretty strong-willed, but she was never implied to be too smart.

Now that I think about it, it's fitting that Lambdadelta was the one running the game that focused on protecting Natsuhi.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

She should have told someone... but Natsuhi is way too prideful so I'm not sure if she would have admitted the whole baby thing.

That and she was in no position to refuse those demands.
She not only knew that the story the person on the other end told was true, but the person threatened her with revealing the story to others if she were to blow his cover. This would have meant several things:
1) She would lose face in front of Krauss' siblings and their spouses, especially in front of Eva.
2) She would probably face a trial and possible time in jail if not worse. As she committed at least manslaughter, if not calculated murder.
3) Krauss would learn that she endangered his chances towards the inheritance by denying him an heir out of pride.
Now you could say it is her word against the mysterious caller, but she is in every position to assume that at least Genji, if not more people are in on this and would back up the story of the man from 19 years ago, even embellish it to the point where she faces the worst possible result.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The scene screams #2 to me.

To me too, especially when we add to this how Eva, Genji and Rosa had time to plan further events. I propose the following:
Genji filled Eva and Rosa in on the plot to carry on with the game to make Battler remember. He went into the servants room, which was then sealed by Eva with the tape she received from Erika, and applied the prepared make-up to appear dead.
Rosa went to the guesthouse and when she arrived around 1am she went upstairs as if nothing was going on. She filled the children in on "a game" and asked Maria to help with drawing a magic circle on the wall. Because they cannot draw as well as Yasu, the circle looked amateurish. After that they all applied the make up Rosa had received through Genji and laid ready to be found.
It is not unlikely that they made sleeping sounds when Battler came back to keep him from turning on the lights.
Eva went back into the dining hall and after they send Battler off to sleep she conspired with the others. They somehow surprised Krauss and took him hostage. Anybody of them might have had hostile motives against him, so the man from 19 years ago's words, that he had no intention to hurt Krauss, were true.
Everybody except Battler and Erika were filled in on the plot to stage Hideyoshi's death in Natsuhi's presence. So anybody not specifically mentioned to move from the hall into the room after the chain is cut can be the "culprit" Natsuhi saw.
The "bodies" moved on their own after they were found, either because they were forced by somebody among them or to meet up somewhere else and deepen the plot. After they reunited it came to a struggle and at least somebody (Krauss?) died.

Now that I think about it, it's fitting that Lambdadelta was the one running the game that focused on protecting Natsuhi.

Elaborate further, this sounds pretty intriguing.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Lambdadelta gave Kanon a body? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=29698 Maybe *you* gave Kanon a body in EP5

Putting aside that I really, really really don't wanna talk about Kanon in EP5 anymore, I've always found the other possible, admittedly very possible reasons for the discrepancy to be ungodly, unforgivably ... stupid.

Originally Posted by haguruma

That is shown quite clearly in the solution of Kinzô's escape from the study. Any of the Eiserne Jungfrau could have used "Kinzô is dead at the start of every game!", but at this point in EP5's story there is no proof, no evidence and therefor no solution. Any solution by the gameboard-detective can only be done in coherence with what he or she has gathered within the plot and in gameboard Erika's plot during EP5 she misses crucial events that we, the reader, do witness.

Not necessarily - it's simplest to assume that Erika is viewing all of the gameboard narrative, like Battler was in EP1-4. Erika is also, I believe, already aware of what happened during those games. It's a bit of a sore point - during the Court of Illusions, Erika claims that only Lambda and Bern refusing to restate the red of Kinzo's death made it impossible to count him as dead. But that's not necessarily true - she could've forced a response with Kinzo is already dead, isn't he? or something, AND it's apparently totes cool for Battler to just fall back on the Kinzo is dead at the start of all games from the previous game.

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm honestly more amused with the way nobody seems to have any problem believing Natsuhi was physically capable of the supposed First Twilight murders. It seems really hard to kill a half-dozen people all in a single room, even if they're asleep. People tend not to be asleep very long if you start trying to kill them with a knife. Then again, Natsuhi just believes the murders happened too and doesn't really question it, so I'm going to guess it's a genre thing.

Indeed, probably a genre thing. Remember back in EP3, when BATTLER was arguing his Eva culprit theory, he was apparently able to use a Devil's Proof along the lines of "I don't have to explain how Eva killed three conscious adults armed with guns, so long as it was physically possible at all."

Originally Posted by haguruma

3) Krauss would learn that she endangered his chances towards the inheritance by denying him an heir out of pride.

Small stuff, but first, I believe Krauss already knows about the baby, or at least in Lambda's narrative he did. Second, there wouldn't be any need to "fool" Battler once he came back to the Guesthouse, right? If the adults planned anything out between seeing the gold at 11-ish and Rosa leaving at 1-ish, Battler was there for it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

That and she was in no position to refuse those demands.
She not only knew that the story the person on the other end told was true, but the person threatened her with revealing the story to others if she were to blow his cover. This would have meant several things:
1) She would lose face in front of Krauss' siblings and their spouses, especially in front of Eva.
2) She would probably face a trial and possible time in jail if not worse. As she committed at least manslaughter, if not calculated murder.
3) Krauss would learn that she endangered his chances towards the inheritance by denying him an heir out of pride.
Now you could say it is her word against the mysterious caller, but she is in every position to assume that at least Genji, if not more people are in on this and would back up the story of the man from 19 years ago, even embellish it to the point where she faces the worst possible result.

She could tell her husband, or anybody else she trusts. Or she could at least tell people she had a telephone call without elaborating. Genji has to back that up.

Hell, tell everybody she was on the phone with Kinzo, who just so happens to have left the island in secret and can't get back because of the storm! But Natsuhi isn't smart enough for that.

It would kind of screw everything up though.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Elaborate further, this sounds pretty intriguing.

It's not really. I was just making the connection between Natsuhi's unwavering persistence through crisis and how Lambdadelta is basically the patron of human persistence.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Not necessarily - it's simplest to assume that Erika is viewing all of the gameboard narrative, like Battler was in EP1-4. Erika is also, I believe, already aware of what happened during those games.

Yet again I think you are mixing up what is possible on the gameboard and what is possible within the metaworld. Gameboard Erika can be fed as many pieces of information that her counterpart in the metaworld possesses as she wants, she wouldn't be able to properly work with them, because she has no way of knowing them.
That IS the dilemma of Erika. Her whole apparent superiority stems from the fact that she has access to supernatural elements, but that defeats her purpose as a human-side detective from the start. Gameboard Erika cannot use the knowledge that "person X is dead at the start of every game" on the gameboard, because it's existence as a gameboard is only of any validity from the perspective of those outside the gameboard.

The problem is that Erika wants to win the metaworld AND the gameboard. To make the truth "Kinzô is dead" be effective on EP5's gameboard, she needs at least one of two things a) a confession or b) a corpse. There is neither of those during the time when she tries to win the game, so on the gameboard she has to work with what she has at her disposal.

I know it grows increasingly harder to seperate the meta-goal from the gameboard-goal, but I think it is that which is the key to knowing what happens. Not ripping the veil away and casting it aside, but seperating the layers from one another and looking at them separately.

Indeed, probably a genre thing. Remember back in EP3, when BATTLER was arguing his Eva culprit theory, he was apparently able to use a Devil's Proof along the lines of "I don't have to explain how Eva killed three conscious adults armed with guns, so long as it was physically possible at all."

Small stuff, but first, I believe Krauss already knows about the baby, or at least in Lambda's narrative he did.

But Natsuhi didn't know that he did.
Yes we could say that, in a world where Natsuhi is not afraid of any consequences that might arise out of going against the mysterious caller, she probably could have destroyed the plot of the caller...which for me is nothing more than a part of Beato/Yasu's mystery game directed at Battler.
I do believe though that this would not have helped in preventing the crisis that led to the explosion.

Second, there wouldn't be any need to "fool" Battler once he came back to the Guesthouse, right? If the adults planned anything out between seeing the gold at 11-ish and Rosa leaving at 1-ish, Battler was there for it.

You are missing the gaps here I think. Battler is not always around.
There is this strange plot of Eva leaving together with Rosa and Genji only to come back again to the dining hall, isn't there? Why did she do that? Why did she feel the need to mark the entrance to the room Genji was in? Why did the same thing happen in Genji's room as in the room Rosa went to after that scene?
And there is a reason to "fool" Battler for somebody on the island, isn't there? That person chose not to reveal him/herself to him, but kept the disguise of Beatrice.

Originally Posted by Renall

Hell, tell everybody she was on the phone with Kinzo, who just so happens to have left the island in secret and can't get back because of the storm! But Natsuhi isn't smart enough for that.

*Letter from Beatrice appears*
"Dear members of this family, honored family head Sir Battler,
It has come to my ears that somebody among you is deceiving you, which as a former aid to this household pains me deeply. Please investigate [place X], I have prepared a wonderful place for the former family head, Sir Kinzô, to sleep peacefully after he departed this world and joined me in my magic realm over one human year ago.
Heed the word of the Golden Witch,
Beatrice"

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by haguruma

*Letter from Beatrice appears*
"Dear members of this family, honored family head Sir Battler,
It has come to my ears that somebody among you is deceiving you, which as a former aid to this household pains me deeply. Please investigate [place X], I have prepared a wonderful place for the former family head, Sir Kinzô, to sleep peacefully after he departed this world and joined me in my magic realm over one human year ago.
Heed the word of the Golden Witch,
Beatrice"

I guess it would have been a huge plot twist for Natsuhi if she realized Beatrice was on the enemy side, but I suppose there's a reason if in EP5 the blackmailer presents himself as the man from 19 years before and never implies he's connected with Beatrice. Maybe it could have turned out that way if Natsuhi talked, but she had absolutely no reason to believe this would happen unless this mysterious man somehow revealed his existence to others.

By the way I doubt there was any way for this "man" to prove that Natsuhi caused the death of the maid and the injuries of the baby. It wouldn't even be his word against hers since he couldn't have any memory of that. And as far as we know nobody witnessed that "accident".
While the presence of the baby was hidden, the case was already settled since a long time.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I guess it would have been a huge plot twist for Natsuhi if she realized Beatrice was on the enemy side, but I suppose there's a reason if in EP5 the blackmailer presents himself as the man from 19 years before and never implies he's connected with Beatrice.

The reason: "End of the Golden Witch" has no love

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

*Letter from Beatrice appears*
"Dear members of this family, honored family head Sir Battler,
It has come to my ears that somebody among you is deceiving you, which as a former aid to this household pains me deeply. Please investigate [place X], I have prepared a wonderful place for the former family head, Sir Kinzô, to sleep peacefully after he departed this world and joined me in my magic realm over one human year ago.
Heed the word of the Golden Witch,
Beatrice"

Then it ceases to be blackmail. Why would a blackmailer play their hand?

Claiming you've talked to Kinzo is really no different than anything else Natsuhi's cover-up would have done at that point, and the blackmailer doesn't seem keen to just show off Kinzo's corpse for whatever reason, even though burning the body has happened in other eps so the corpse is apparently on hand there.

Plus, maybe the MF19YA doesn't have access to the body in ep5. And who's to say Natsuhi and Krauss don't? Considering ep5 fixes the cover-up pretty squarely around Natsuhi, I think it'd be strange (at least in this continuity) for her not to already be aware of the location of the body. Yet she never seems worried about it actually appearing even though they're trying to tighten the noose around her.

Honestly, it seems like in ep5 the blackmailer needs Natsuhi to admit to it. Otherwise why not just do what you already proposed: Ask Natsuhi and Krauss about Kinzo, then produce the body to prove they're lying? Why go through all of this to get her to confess to it when she's already entrapped by her words? It makes me think whoever is doing it lacks physical evidence. And Natsuhi's own behavior makes me think the body is destroyed or something, at least in ep5.

[Jan-Poo]

Frankly I don't believe that Natsuhi would want to keep Kinzo's body around. In the first place her plan is to make him disappear. It makes absolutely no sense to think she wouldn't want it to be "disposed" in a permanent way. And I think it's logical to assume that she'd be at least respectful enough to give Kinzo a proper burial, after a thorough cremation.

But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?


1945ish
Nanjo: "Genji... Beatrice is dead..."
Genji: "This is very unfortunate... okay, I'll take care of the corpse..."

1967
Rosa: "Genji! Beatrice! Beatrice is dead!"
Genji: "Again?! I mean... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1967 (some time later)
Natsuhi: "Genji! The maid is dead! The baby is dead!"
Genji: "Sigh... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1984
Yasu: "Genji! Kinzo is dead!"
Genji: "No problem, I'm an expert."

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?

Oh yes, poor Genji. He's seen so much death and destruction, no wonder he prefers to be silent. I wonder where his magical little graveyard might be

[Asuka0NK]

I've actually wondered where Genji is throwing all these bodies I mean where are they all going. I doubt Genji actually does anything he probably goes to look at them then just shrugs and walks away. He doesn't have to worry the seagulls will eat them.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Burns them and drops the bones in the far-off waters?

...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

I've actually wondered where Genji is throwing all these bodies I mean where are they all going. I doubt Genji actually does anything he probably goes to look at them then just shrugs and walks away. He doesn't have to worry the seagulls will eat them.

Of course, because Genji is of Taiwanese origin, he had to wait for a day where it was fortunate to bury them. I can see him walking over to Kuwadorian again and again, always cursing about how it wasn't the right day
Maybe he even belonged to another Buddhist group, apparently being from out in the countryside from what we know, so who knows what rites he had to follow.

Oh poor Genji, all the work is on you...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Frankly I don't believe that Natsuhi would want to keep Kinzo's body around. In the first place her plan is to make him disappear. It makes absolutely no sense to think she wouldn't want it to be "disposed" in a permanent way. And I think it's logical to assume that she'd be at least respectful enough to give Kinzo a proper burial, after a thorough cremation.

But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?


1945ish
Nanjo: "Genji... Beatrice is dead..."
Genji: "This is very unfortunate... okay, I'll take care of the corpse..."

1967
Rosa: "Genji! Beatrice! Beatrice is dead!"
Genji: "Again?! I mean... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1967 (some time later)
Natsuhi: "Genji! The maid is dead! The baby is dead!"
Genji: "Sigh... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1984
Yasu: "Genji! Kinzo is dead!"
Genji: "No problem, I'm an expert."

All this reminds me of what I was reading short ago in which a doctor insisted the best way to get rid of a body was to cut the meat into tiny slices then break all the bones and feed the result to chickens... I wonder if seaguls can replace chickens...

[GuestSpeaker]

That is an awful lot of work to dispose of a body...

[Jan-Poo]

I have no doubt that chicken would eat everything and seagulls? Even more.
After all Sky burial is a very old practice.
But is this doctor considering the problem of how many things and places would be smeared by the genetic material of the victim? I think that even doing a thorough clean up this wouldn't be without any risk.