AnimeSuki Forums

Tyabann · 2010-01-19, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

However, I cannot accept "Person 1, Person 2, Person 3, Person 4, Person 5, Person 3's Alternate Personality, six people are dead!" Besides, if Shkanon is also Beatrice, then Beatrice is also dead, so it should be seven people. Granted, you can say "six people are dead" when seven people are, but at that point I'm rolling my eyes hard.

I think that's actually brought up in Ep6, right? The two seemingly opposing red statements that are both true?

What convinces me of the Shkannon theory is that, even after the big reveal of Kinzo's death, they were still playing games with the person count. This would explain why. ...Besides, sixteen humans fits the chess metaphor perfectly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Shouldn't that instead be translated as:
All of them had wounds that were thought to be fatal gunshot wounds!

Because if they were only thought to be fatal, that's a whole different kettle of seagulls.

Yeah... well, that might explain a few things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

Maria also died in EP4. Battler found her dead.

I think the point is that she was one of the "final five", though. That is, a ninth/tenth twilight death.

Renall · 2010-01-19, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I think that's actually brought up in Ep6, right? The two seemingly opposing red statements that are both true?

"Seeming opposition" is not the same as "outright wrong." I won't accept that five people dying and one person with two personalities counts as six people. I can accept the apparent contradiction in ep6 because I can think of ways around it. The only way around the ep3 red is that personalities count as separate people, which just screws everything up.

TDS · 2010-01-19, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What convinces me of the Shkannon theory is that, even after the big reveal of Kinzo's death, they were still playing games with the person count. This would explain why. ...Besides, sixteen humans fits the chess metaphor perfectly.

But there aren't sixteen pieces on a chessboard, there are 32. 16 white, and 16 black.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I think the point is that she was one of the "final five", though. That is, a ninth/tenth twilight death.

Yes, that was what I meant.
Sorry for the confusion.

Tyabann · 2010-01-19, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

"Seeming opposition" is not the same as "outright wrong." I won't accept that five people dying and one person with two personalities counts as six people. I can accept the apparent contradiction in ep6 because I can think of ways around it. The only way around the ep3 red is that personalities count as separate people, which just screws everything up.

I was actually talking about the six people are dead/seven people are dead thing.

And, hmm, personalities counting as different people might never work in real life... but I wouldn't forget that the person saying that red might well be one of those personalities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDS

But there aren't sixteen pieces on a chessboard, there are 32. 16 white, and 16 black.

White is the human side. 16 white pieces.

TDS · 2010-01-19, 20:13

If anti-fantasy is true, then regardless of whether it is a mystery or not, there can only be humans on the island, and you can't well play a game with no opposition.

Isekaijin · 2010-01-19, 20:14

The witches side are way more than sixteen though. We have 7 witches, 2 sorcerers, 4 demons, 15 furnitures (stakes, siestas, sakutaro, Einserne Jungfrau) and an unlimited number of goats, including our favourite Goat-kun.

Used Can · 2010-01-19, 20:33

Einserne Jungfrau and Bern (and maybe Featherine) are part of the mystery side, though. In fact, the mystery side is actually larger than the mystery side.

Spoiler for Sides:

Anyway, now that I think about it, Sakutaro showed up in EP6, and he shouldn't have been able to do that, since at that point, Maria thought he was dead.

Tyabann · 2010-01-19, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDS

If anti-fantasy is true, then regardless of whether it is a mystery or not, there can only be humans on the island, and you can't well play a game with no opposition.

Anti-Fantasy isn't true. That's the whole point of Ep5.

In fact, I think it's just something Ryukishi made up to confuse us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

The witches side are way more than sixteen though. We have 7 witches, 2 sorcerers, 4 demons, 15 furnitures (stakes, siestas, sakutaro, Einserne Jungfrau) and an unlimited number of goats, including our favourite Goat-kun.

That's ignoring my point: The human side, the side with a SET number of pieces (the witch side seems to fluctuate every episode) has very close to sixteen pieces... with all the chessboard metaphors, I just think it's a little suspect.

Although if you, say, consider the stakes and the goats to be a single piece and ignore all the characters that have never appeared in piece form (Lambda, Bern, and Featherine, so far), you might be left with a more manageable number for the witch side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

Einserne Jungfrau and Bern (and maybe Featherine) are part of the mystery side, though.

Well, the "mystery side" and the "human side" are different.

For example, Maria is clearly on the "fantasy side", but she's still counted as a human.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

Anyway, now that I think about it, Sakutaro showed up in EP6, and he shouldn't have been able to do that, since at that point, Maria thought he was dead.

Magic scenes have given us Krauss punching out a goat, Battler jumping out of a window, and the Jealousy Point system, among many other things that make absolutely no sense. Why shouldn't Sakutaro show up? It's Battler's game, he can do what he likes.

Used Can · 2010-01-19, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well, the "mystery side" and the "human side" are different.

I know, but the issue is mystery vs fantasy, not humans vs witches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Magic scenes have given us Krauss punching out a goat, Battler jumping out of a window, and the Jealousy Point system, among many other things that make absolutely no sense. Why shouldn't Sakutaro show up? It's Battler's game, he can do what he likes.

I know, however Sakutaro was made to be a big deal in EP4. And, even if it's fantasy, I suppose that has to get it's own line of consistency, no?

TDS · 2010-01-19, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Anti-Fantasy isn't true. That's the whole point of Ep5.

In fact, I think it's just something Ryukishi made up to confuse us.

I disagree... Episode 5 didn't give me that impression at all.

There aren't only two perspectives to the story though, there are four (or more) there's:

Fantasy (a witch did it)
Anti-Fantasy (Magic doesn't exist OR it does but has nothing to do with what's going on)
Mystery (The story is solvable under normal circumstances)
Anti-Mystery (the story is not solvable under normal circumstances)

Battler, with his chessboard thinking, believes it should be looked at from more than one angle. Erika was looking at it from Mystery/anti-fantasy only and that was too restrictive to come to the conclusion.

Ep 5 also suggested that Beato had hinted that she's not a witch, which implies (to me) that even if anti-fantasy isn't true for the world as a whole it at least applies to the island.

Tyabann · 2010-01-19, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

I know, but the issue is mystery vs fantasy, not humans vs witches.

My point was that the human side, if Shkannon is true, would have sixteen pieces. I wasn't bringing mystery or fantasy into it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

I know, however Sakutaro was made to be a big deal in EP4. And, even if it's fantasy, I suppose that has to get it's own line of consistency, no?

Magic scenes have never been consistent. Kanon has enough trouble taking down a single goat, then completely owns Lucifer. Krauss has to jump through ridiculous hoops just to knock a goat out, while Rosa can take one down with a a pen to the eye.

Used Can · 2010-01-19, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Magic scenes have never been consistent. Kanon has enough trouble taking down a single goat, then completely owns Lucifer. Krauss has to jump through ridiculous hoops just to knock a goat out, while Rosa can take one down with a a pen to the eye.

I didn't mean that type of consistency, but plot consistency. In 1986, Maria doesn't know there's another Sakutaro (or the same one, but fixed); thus, Sakutaro is dead and cannot show up. This is part of the fantasy plot. However, in EP6, he showed up.

Jan-Poo · 2010-01-19, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And I don't know much about the latter, but And Then There Were None was a horrible mystery.

Lol I agree... typical case where the culprit seems to have the cosmic forces all on his side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

"Seeming opposition" is not the same as "outright wrong." I won't accept that five people dying and one person with two personalities counts as six people. I can accept the apparent contradiction in ep6 because I can think of ways around it. The only way around the ep3 red is that personalities count as separate people, which just screws everything up.

How do you get around the red texts of EP6? Don't give me the "Erika doesn't exist" because it makes even less sense than the "characters count as people" theory. In her case we have a confirmation that she exists in flesh and bones, and so does Battler. Not to mention that Erika is Bern's piece and it would be utterly stupid for Bern not to tell Erika about this vital particular.

Also the "I can state I have 2 apples if have 3" is pretty lame, because it completely trivialize the killer red text that ends EP6, not to mention there wouldn't be any reason for Battler and Beatrice to lie to a dying Erika.

ArcticHelm · 2010-01-19, 21:43

I think that it seems a large part of the reasons for the game was to make a situation where Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice could all exist separately on a meta-level, where as only one could have existed (or at least been happy) otherwise. E.G. the whole 'destroy everything, revive everything & bless all lovers' deal. Thus it's not hard to say the the killings merely take place out of love and not some other reason such as revenge or for gold. By normal sensibilities, this attitude might seem crazy, but I think it'd make sense to someone who understands and believes in magic.

I'm not entirely sure why it's stated that the killings will stop if the epitaph is solved, unless perhaps one views it as having more than one implication than the gold being found. It seems that it may because the headship changes and Beatrice no longer has to follow what was Kinzo's last order and attempt to fully revive Beatrice. Otherwise, perhaps it's just a level of accepted risk for the magic of the ceremony - If there is no risk involved in the chance it could be stopped, it loses its meaning. As far as after the gold is found, I'm just under the assumption people starting killing each other over it. It's possible that it's somewhat random or one person just goes rouge from the plan. /shrug

Either way, I think that 6 clearly implies that if the Beatrice's magic is dispelled only one of them, though not necessarily the original, will remain. However, I do think there is possibly still room to deny this 'situation' regarding their nature with a different interpretation; regarding umineko's characters, it's difficult to say what my be an elaborate trap or just obscure.

I could probably say a more on the matter, but my thoughts on this are somewhat partial/incomplete at the moment. o - o )

Tyabann · 2010-01-19, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDS

I disagree... Episode 5 didn't give me that impression at all.

Look at it this way: Ep5 introduces a character who is clearly the embodiment of some of the more extreme views among the fanbase, that is, the views of those who generally identify with "Anti-Fantasy".

This character is possibly one of the most twisted and unlikable characters in the entire series.

...Is Anti-Fantasy really the right viewpoint to have here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

I didn't mean that type of consistency, but plot consistency. In 1986, Maria doesn't know there's another Sakutaro (or the same one, but fixed); thus, Sakutaro is dead and cannot show up. This is part of the fantasy plot. However, in EP6, he showed up.

Wait, wait, I got it.

MARIA, like all the fantasy characters, exists outside of the timeline of the real world. In other words, she's the same MARIA that received Sakutaro from ANGE. Things make sense now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How do you get around the red texts of EP6? Don't give me the "Erika doesn't exist" because it makes even less sense than the "characters count as people" theory. In her case we have a confirmation that she exists in flesh and bones, and so does Battler. Not to mention that Erika is Bern's piece and it would be utterly stupid for Bern not to tell Erika about this vital particular.

Furthermore, Renall, there's a hell of a lot of evidence for Shkannon, even if Ep3 and Ep5 aren't really kind to the theory.

ArcticHelm · 2010-01-19, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Furthermore, Renall, there's a hell of a lot of evidence for Shkannon, even if Ep3 and Ep5 aren't really kind to the theory.

I think it's possible to find a work around in 3, although it is certainly problematic to understand. However 5 on the other hand isn't too much of a problem since Battler isn't a reliable point of view.

Tyabann · 2010-01-19, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticHelm

I think it's possible to find a work around in 3, although it is certainly problematic to understand. However 5 on the other hand isn't too much of a problem since Battler isn't a reliable point of view.

There's one line of Dlanor's in Ep5 that refers to Shannon and Kanon as separate individuals. It's not in red, but she says it in front of (Meta) Erika, who doesn't seem to think anything's wrong.

I think that's what really kills the Shkannon theory, but it could be one of the 'mistakes' Ryukishi made in the script.

Jan-Poo · 2010-01-19, 21:59

Imho EP5 was cleverly crafted to deny the shkannon theory. But because it doesn't do that in a direct way, it stinks...

ArcticHelm · 2010-01-19, 22:01

Possible, although it depends on what you really want to define an individual on. The series constantly talks about breathing a soul into animate/inanimate objects and how someone can make something out of nothing. A body without a soul is just a body, not an individual thus emphasis is put on the fact that it is a personality with a soul. Under this type of understanding it's possible to imply that a separate body is not a necessary requirement for an individual, even if some people would consider it a mental illness. This is entirely born out of a body-based view of individuality rather than a mental basis... I think Umineko greatly emphasizes the mental basis. Because of this Maria is able to acknowledge Beatrice just as Ange is able to acknowledge the 'bad witch' against Kasumi.

Edit: That being said, one could make distinguished remarks regarding the witches themselves. Beatrice clearly has a sort of half and half existence as both being a personality and human individual as well as being the "Golden Witch Beatrice" of legend and the Rokkenjima incident. Witches like the bad one that Maria or Ange deal with are more strictly conceptual, although it's still possible to acknowledge them as existing 'individuals' just like Gaap is said to be a personification of items going missing. They are in a sense a conglomeration of happenings, 'personalities' and effects in a sort of way which could be compared to the piecemeal synthesis of an individual out of different dispositions. Witches like Bern and Lambda are personifications of their own personal spheres; It could be said that Bern is the 'cruelest witch' because of the idea of being denied a miracle that one hopes for and thus having your dreams crushed.

Used Can · 2010-01-19, 22:10

The deal in EP3 is too contradictory with Shaknon. First: 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Naturally, we could always assume that one of them (i.e. Shannon or Kanon) used to exist before, but died prior to October 4 just like Kinzo and that the one who is alive is just posing as the other one. However:

All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

So, if one of them died before 1986, he/she got killed with a fire weapon. And...

It is impossible for the murder to have taken place outside the room!!
When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!

He/she died in Kinzo's room.

Now, following the pretence that one of them is using the other's name:

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

This means that the one who is alive is Kanon. However, we also have these reds from EP2:

Kanon was killed in this room (This refers to what happened in Jessica's room)

Therefore, the real person, the one who was alive got killed. I think we can assume people die when they are killed. But later we got:

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

So, after dying, he somehow managed to play Shannon in that room.

Now, all of this can fall down if we say that Kanon and Shannon are different personalities of the same person, and that they count as different people. Thus, they can be counted as 2 by the red. However, this would completely conflict with EP6 red about 17 people Erika included, because Shannon and Kanon should count as 2 people, unless this means R07 can make them count as 2 or 1 at whim, and in that case I'll simply not comment.

2010-01-19, 20:13	Link #965
TDS Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	If anti-fantasy is true, then regardless of whether it is a mystery or not, there can only be humans on the island, and you can't well play a game with no opposition. Last edited by TDS; 2010-01-19 at 20:14. Reason: added a comma

2010-01-19, 20:33	Link #967
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Einserne Jungfrau and Bern (and maybe Featherine) are part of the mystery side, though. In fact, the mystery side is actually larger than the mystery side. Spoiler for Sides: Spoiler for Mystery Side: There's a total of 24 characters. Spoiler for Humans: Battler George Jessica Shannon Kanon Maria Krauss Natsuhi Eva Hideyoshi Rudoplh Kyrie Rosa Genji Kumasawa Gohda Nanjo Kinzo Erika Spoiler for Witches: Bern Ange-Beatrice Spoiler for Furniture: Dlanor Gertrude Cornelia Spoiler for Fantasy Side: There's a total of 20 characters. Spoiler for Witches: Beatrice Meta-Battler Lambdadelta Eva Beatrice Virgilia Spoiler for Demons: Ronove Gaap Zepar Furfur Spoiler for Furniture: Lucifer Satan Belphegor Beelzebub Mamon Leviathan Asmodeus Siesta 410 Siesta 45 Siesta 00 Goats Anyway, now that I think about it, Sakutaro showed up in EP6, and he shouldn't have been able to do that, since at that point, Maria thought he was dead. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom Last edited by Used Can; 2010-01-19 at 21:05.

2010-01-19, 21:59	Link #978
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Imho EP5 was cleverly crafted to deny the shkannon theory. But because it doesn't do that in a direct way, it stinks... __________________

2010-01-19, 22:01	Link #979
ArcticHelm Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009	Possible, although it depends on what you really want to define an individual on. The series constantly talks about breathing a soul into animate/inanimate objects and how someone can make something out of nothing. A body without a soul is just a body, not an individual thus emphasis is put on the fact that it is a personality with a soul. Under this type of understanding it's possible to imply that a separate body is not a necessary requirement for an individual, even if some people would consider it a mental illness. This is entirely born out of a body-based view of individuality rather than a mental basis... I think Umineko greatly emphasizes the mental basis. Because of this Maria is able to acknowledge Beatrice just as Ange is able to acknowledge the 'bad witch' against Kasumi. Edit: That being said, one could make distinguished remarks regarding the witches themselves. Beatrice clearly has a sort of half and half existence as both being a personality and human individual as well as being the "Golden Witch Beatrice" of legend and the Rokkenjima incident. Witches like the bad one that Maria or Ange deal with are more strictly conceptual, although it's still possible to acknowledge them as existing 'individuals' just like Gaap is said to be a personification of items going missing. They are in a sense a conglomeration of happenings, 'personalities' and effects in a sort of way which could be compared to the piecemeal synthesis of an individual out of different dispositions. Witches like Bern and Lambda are personifications of their own personal spheres; It could be said that Bern is the 'cruelest witch' because of the idea of being denied a miracle that one hopes for and thus having your dreams crushed. Last edited by ArcticHelm; 2010-01-19 at 22:17.

2010-01-19, 22:10	Link #980
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	The deal in EP3 is too contradictory with Shaknon. First: 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! Naturally, we could always assume that one of them (i.e. Shannon or Kanon) used to exist before, but died prior to October 4 just like Kinzo and that the one who is alive is just posing as the other one. However: All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal! So, if one of them died before 1986, he/she got killed with a fire weapon. And... It is impossible for the murder to have taken place outside the room!! When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room! He/she died in Kinzo's room. Now, following the pretence that one of them is using the other's name: The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! This means that the one who is alive is Kanon. However, we also have these reds from EP2: Kanon was killed in this room (This refers to what happened in Jessica's room) Therefore, the real person, the one who was alive got killed. I think we can assume people die when they are killed. But later we got: When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room So, after dying, he somehow managed to play Shannon in that room. Now, all of this can fall down if we say that Kanon and Shannon are different personalities of the same person, and that they count as different people. Thus, they can be counted as 2 by the red. However, this would completely conflict with EP6 red about 17 people Erika included, because Shannon and Kanon should count as 2 people, unless this means R07 can make them count as 2 or 1 at whim, and in that case I'll simply not comment. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2010-01-19, 20:14	Link #966
Isekaijin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008	The witches side are way more than sixteen though. We have 7 witches, 2 sorcerers, 4 demons, 15 furnitures (stakes, siestas, sakutaro, Einserne Jungfrau) and an unlimited number of goats, including our favourite Goat-kun.

2010-01-19, 21:43	Link #974
ArcticHelm Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009	I think that it seems a large part of the reasons for the game was to make a situation where Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice could all exist separately on a meta-level, where as only one could have existed (or at least been happy) otherwise. E.G. the whole 'destroy everything, revive everything & bless all lovers' deal. Thus it's not hard to say the the killings merely take place out of love and not some other reason such as revenge or for gold. By normal sensibilities, this attitude might seem crazy, but I think it'd make sense to someone who understands and believes in magic. I'm not entirely sure why it's stated that the killings will stop if the epitaph is solved, unless perhaps one views it as having more than one implication than the gold being found. It seems that it may because the headship changes and Beatrice no longer has to follow what was Kinzo's last order and attempt to fully revive Beatrice. Otherwise, perhaps it's just a level of accepted risk for the magic of the ceremony - If there is no risk involved in the chance it could be stopped, it loses its meaning. As far as after the gold is found, I'm just under the assumption people starting killing each other over it. It's possible that it's somewhat random or one person just goes rouge from the plan. /shrug Either way, I think that 6 clearly implies that if the Beatrice's magic is dispelled only one of them, though not necessarily the original, will remain. However, I do think there is possibly still room to deny this 'situation' regarding their nature with a different interpretation; regarding umineko's characters, it's difficult to say what my be an elaborate trap or just obscure. I could probably say a more on the matter, but my thoughts on this are somewhat partial/incomplete at the moment. o - o )