World Of Warcraft Discussion Thread

[siya]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

I get random urges to start playing the game again and now that the new patch is out I kind of want to even more, as I'd been planning to start leveling my warrior alt again before I quit and this makes it a lot easier. Though when I think of the backlog of games I already have and how bored I will be in a few months if I start playing again, it's even easier to just not bother. Maybe once the expansion comes out though, the exploration of new areas was what originally drew me to the game and was the most enjoyable experience in it.

hehe...Indeed...I can't wait to do those chain quests to get the Death Night

[Ending]

I get random urges to start playing the game again and now that the new patch is out I kind of want to even more

Same here. Some of the changes were interesting PvP-wise, but I still know that priests suck pretty bad, so I'll be staying out until the expansion.

I have been thinking about the raiding, now that I have spend that time so much better elsewhere, and have to conclude that it's not rewarding or fun. So the true end-game content lies in the Arena and Battlegrounds, which do not offer only good challenge and the best gear in the game, but are much more easily reached than, say, the Black Temple. Just get five people together and you're ready to go.

So yeah: when the expansion comes out, it's sure as hell that I won't be wasting thought in gearing towards the "raids."

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

Same here. Some of the changes were interesting PvP-wise, but I still know that priests suck pretty bad, so I'll be staying out until the expansion.

I have been thinking about the raiding, now that I have spend that time so much better elsewhere, and have to conclude that it's not rewarding or fun. So the true end-game content lies in the Arena and Battlegrounds, which do not offer only good challenge and the best gear in the game, but are much more easily reached than, say, the Black Temple. Just get five people together and you're ready to go.

So yeah: when the expansion comes out, it's sure as hell that I won't be wasting thought in gearing towards the "raids."

I know exactly what you mean. I spent a good portion of time raiding last summer and got some decent gear, but any random guy who played 10 arena matches a week outgeared me by a significant margin. Raiding was fun for a little while, but it gets boring quickly and for me there were also the guild issues I posted a page or two back. It was at least worth it more pre-bc (which I was also sadly heavily involved in) but the introduction of the arena pretty much killed that completely. The only point in raiding now is if you find it "fun" or find a sense of accomplishment in it, but I realized neither of those applies to me. PvP is more fun, has better or equal gear, and doesn't require as much of a time commitment or coordination with 24 morons. If I do ever level that warrior alt he will be strictly PvP.

Edit: Ah dammit, I talked about the game too much and now I have to play it. Hopefully I get bored fast.

[ninjashoes]

I just got my paladin up to level 40, it feels so good having a mounts especially a free one

[siya]

Originally Posted by ninjashoes

I just got my paladin up to level 40, it feels so good having a mounts especially a free one

hehe, I got my druid to 56

[StarTouch]

I don't quite understand why PvP gear would be "better" or "equal" to raiding gear. If you're speaking in terms of PvP, then yes it's better due to the huge budget in stamina and resilience. If you're speaking in terms of PvE, then no it's not better. The only thing that comes close to "equal" for PvE are the weapons and even still, they lose out in the PvE game when compared to Hyjal / BT loot (but of course, are better in PvP).

I'm sitting at +2163 healing (as a druid) and I know for sure that some guy in arena gear isn't gonna come near that. I know for sure the Illidan mace or the Archimonde staff blows away the arena healing stuff.

PvP gear is for PvP (99.99% of the time).
PvE gear is for PvE (99.99% of the time).

Whichever one prefers, they go for it. Two different playing styles with the right gear to accomodate each of them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

The pros for raiding :
- Fun, unique and challenging (yes, I said challenging) encounters that non-raiders will never see.
- The adrenaline rush you get when you drop that big bad boss with 24 other raiders (and probably reserves sitting out for the "team").
- Tiny bit of whatever lore is left in the game (yea, lawls).
The cons for raiding :
- Random loot.
- You need a decent raiding core to progress (of about 30+ people).
- Repairs and consumable costs are significantly higher than PvP / BGs / Arenas.
- You don't get anything if you fail repeatedly (except maybe rep).

The pros for PvP / arenas :
- Challenging fights (once you go like 1900+, teams start growing a brain).
- Insignificant repair costs.
- You only need 1, 2 or 4 more players to get the arena games rolling.
- Failing doesn't mean you don't get loot. It means you're set back and getting your shiny gear is gonna be a bit slower.
- You can select your loot.
The cons for PvP / arenas :
- Your loot sucks for PvE, except for the weapons. But hey, the reverse applies to PvE!
- (for arenas) Gotta make sure everyone on your team gets their games in and still maintain your ratings, assuming you don't run a small group.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

If one goes by the pros / cons thingy, it should / would seem that PvP is clearly the easier choice. But once again, you're only gearing up for the PvP aspect of the game. If you don't have any PvE ambitions, then it's cool and everything's fine. However, if you wish to raid and see tier 6 content, PvP gear is not going to cut it.

I have done both ends and think they're really apples and oranges. PvE has many complains due to the random loot system where raiders feel it is a huge timesink if you get terrible loot streaks (a.k.a garbage drops). Still, I enjoy my time in tier 6 content (hopefully killing Illidan before Christmas) and I spend the off-days PvPing it up in the arenas with guildies and friends.

I won't say PvP is harder than PvE, or the opposite. Arenas are genuinely hard when you're gunning for 2K+ ratings but on that note, PvE-ing isn't a walk in the park with very high demands on 25 raiders working together as a cohesive unit. In the end, I really believe it's personal preference (or lack thereof, in my case, as I just do both and enjoy the game).

[Ending]

I'm sitting at +2163 healing (as a druid) and I know for sure that some guy in arena gear isn't gonna come near that.

Perhaps, but for the 97% of us arena gear is the next best thing considering the time/effort -ratio.

The pros for raiding :
- Fun, unique and challenging (yes, I said challenging) encounters that non-raiders will never see.
- The adrenaline rush you get when you drop that big bad boss with 24 other raiders (and probably reserves sitting out for the "team").

The challenge comes from repeatedly dying, waiting for the group, dying, waiting, and (re)clearing trash. I wouldn't say it's a big loss of NOT seeing that. But I have to admit that the moment the boss dies it gets exciting. For a whole whopping five minutes after 240 minutes of cursing.

Then you curse more, because you know that you need to spend weeks, even months, doing the same thing all over again before you see your first epic, since the more senior members of the raid will always take the first pick. DKP-points, anyone?

- Your loot sucks for PvE, except for the weapons. But hey, the reverse applies to PvE!

For a healer, most of the arena gear is good enough for Karazhan, Gruul, and etc. True, it lacks some mp5, but this can be alleviated with innervate, pots, and blessings. But discussing this is pointless, because none of the first two or three raiding areas has any better gear to offer, so they're just waste of time to a PvP-geared player. In this sense, heroics are the end of PvE.

However, the reverse still holds true: PvE geared priest (or whatever) will not succeed in PvP enviroment, since the PvE gear doesn't have any resilience. Resilience decreases the chances of suffering a critical hit, which can insta-gib you in the worst case. The only advantage it has is mp5 and that's it. What are you going to do with it when there is no place to use it in? Raid old instances again "for a bit of fun?"

In the end, I really believe it's personal preference

Personal preference and the limitations set by the game. More of the latter, I think.

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

Perhaps, but for the 97% of us arena gear is the next best thing considering the time/effort -ratio.


The challenge comes from repeatedly dying, waiting for the group, dying, waiting, and (re)clearing trash. I wouldn't say it's a big loss of NOT seeing that. But I have to admit that the moment the boss dies it gets exciting. For a whole whopping five minutes after 240 minutes of cursing.

Then you curse more, because you know that you need to spend weeks, even months, doing the same thing all over again before you see your first epic, since the more senior members of the raid will always take the first pick. DKP-points, anyone?


For a healer, most of the arena gear is good enough for Karazhan, Gruul, and etc. True, it lacks some mp5, but this can be alleviated with innervate, pots, and blessings. But discussing this is pointless, because none of the first two or three raiding areas has any better gear to offer, so they're just waste of time to a PvP-geared player. In this sense, heroics are the end of PvE.

However, the reverse still holds true: PvE geared priest (or whatever) will not succeed in PvP enviroment, since the PvE gear doesn't have any resilience. Resilience decreases the chances of suffering a critical hit, which can insta-gib you in the worst case. The only advantage it has is mp5 and that's it. What are you going to do with it when there is no place to use it in? Raid old instances again "for a bit of fun?"


Personal preference and the limitations set by the game. More of the latter, I think.

1) I'd disagree. Assuming we're not discussing about the weapons and more on the general armor pieces, Zul'Aman / Heroic Badge rewards (the new ones) / "easy" tier 5 bosses (Solarian, Void Reaver, Lurker, Hydross) all yield better PvE choices for the main armor slots, accessories and trinkets. Shockingly, the heroic badge wand is the best in the game for shadow priests (at the moment). There are plenty of superior choices. Even old Karazhan still has some nifty pieces.

2) My guild doesn't use DKP. We use a /random roll system with officers stepping in on occasion to make decisions. If you've gotten loot(s), you will be ineligible to loot for the next 2 weeks (unless magically, there is nobody who wants a certain item and it gets defaulted to you). We run a small guild roster so we don't really have much arguement or loot drama.

As for challenge, it's the unique-ness of the later encounters in the game that interest me. In pre-TBC, C'thun was truly unique and very punishing (when you were first learning him). The 4 horsemen was another "cool" encounter, though it was badly tuned (8 tanks in 4-piece tier 3. And in those days, tanks = warriors). Kel'thuzad was also pretty epic and challenging. BC trimmed down the raid size and pinned additional demands on each raider.

Vashj, Kael'thas are the gatekeepers for tier 5. Kael has been nerfed but he still wipes raids and is my favourite encounter in the game to date. I'm now working on the Reliquary of the Lost (6th boss in BT and hopefully they will go down tomorrow) and the fight just blows me away. A phase where you totally can't heal at all, a phase where your mana capacity slowly dwindles down to zero and you deal 50% damage back to yourself and a phase where you race against a stacking damage aura that will kill your raid in about 1:45 - 2 minutes. I'm enjoying every bit of raiding and though at times raiding can be frustrating, I've no regrets on stepping into the PvE game.

3) As was mentioned in point 1, there are better gear choices. I know Gruul drops the lovely Dragonspine Trophy which remains the best physical dps trinket in the game (despite it getting nerfed) and a pretty nice shield that serves well into tier 6. I know some of my feral druids still go back to Gruul's lair for tier 4. Magtheridon has some awesome loots himself (nice healing ring from his head), tier 4 chests (hey I'm still wearing my tier 4 chest in tier 6 content! xD), a great shield, trinket and more.

You can most definitely wear arena gear to the lower-end of PvE content. Still, it does not make it any better. Lower +healing, lower regen doesn't score with me. PvE gear will still beat the pants off arena gear in PvE content (99% of the time). This is assuming we're comparing tier 4 to season 1, tier 5 to season 2, tier 6 to season 3 (as corresponding to their item levels). If we want to compare them across the board, tier 4 packs the same >> PvE << punch as season 2 (with more regen to boot for healers).

There is always a place to use one's PvE gear. It's called the next step of progression. And if you do reach the pinnacle of the end-game content, you farm it while waiting for the next level to be revealed (in this case, Sunwell in the near future).

4) I won't say anyone is limited in the virtual world of World of Warcraft. Choices, that's what pushes or holds back players. Content is there to be played. Content is there to be attempted. The choice is in the player's hands. I raid 12 hours a week, while managing a university life alongside a part-time job as a tutor. I had to find a guild which is comfortable with my real-life schedule and admittedly, it took some time to negotiate the scheduling (my guild luckily is made up of old friends / raidmates). I also PvP on the side for fun but I don't want to invest my time into getting Gladiator or a competitive rating (2.2K +). That's a choice on my part as I feel like taking time off to relax in real-life (hence, just 10 games a week in my 5v5 or 3v3). It's all really about schedules, choices and priorities.

[Ending]

It sounds like you are in a fortunate position. Fortunate enough for the *game* to allow you to access some very rarely accessed areas. But the fact remains: you represent only a small minority whereas I speaking for the vast majority. It would be strange to cater the minority at the expense of the rest.

1) I dare to say that you are clearly wrong here. Take a look at http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/items/armorsets/ and compare tier-6 (available from the Black Temple) to arena gladiator set 2. For a healer, the differences are negliable, except that the arena gear actually allows you to have fun while steadily approaching your goal. Not only that, but battlegrounds and arenas stay fresh much longer than grinding the same old fart at dungeon X.

I have been in Karazhan. Not much there that could compete with created items (namely: whitemend + primal mooncloth set, neither of which requires raiding) and battleground awards. Also see http://www.wowwiki.com/Gruul_the_Dragonkiller for what he drops and remember: getting any of these requires weeks of grinding, failing, getting people together, and waiting. That's bad time/effort for one item. In comparison, ten matches a week at the arena doesn't sound too bad when you know that you get an superb item for sure (e.g: see here).

Heck, the arena items even look exactly the same as tier-6 if not better.

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

It sounds like you are in a fortunate position. Fortunate enough for the *game* to allow you to access some very rarely accessed areas. But the fact remains: you represent only a small minority whereas I speaking for the vast majority. It would be strange to cater the minority at the expense of the rest.

1) I dare to say that you are clearly wrong here. Take a look at http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/items/armorsets/ and compare tier-6 (available from the Black Temple) to arena gladiator set 2. For a healer, the differences are negliable, except that the arena gear actually allows you to have fun while steadily approaching your goal.

I have been in Karazhan. Not much there that could compete with created items (namely: whitemend + primal mooncloth set, neither of which requires raiding) and battleground awards. Also see http://www.wowwiki.com/Gruul_the_Dragonkiller for what he drops and remember: getting any of these requires weeks of grinding, failing, getting people together, and waiting. That's bad time/effort for one item. In comparison, ten matches a week at the arena doesn't sound too bad when you know that you get an superb item for sure.

Heck, the arena items even look exactly the same as tier-6 if not better.

1) I'm looking at my tier 6 druid Thunderheart and it sure blows away the arena gear. It's really a no-contest. And besides, I have epic gems to slot into my gear whereas the non-raider / PvPer wouldn't (without having to pay godly amounts of gold).

2) Gruul drops the best physical DPS trinket in the game. You'll wear it when you first drop him, when you step into tier 5, when you move into tier 6, when you kill Illidan...and even when you do arenas / BGs. My tier 6 guild goes back to Gruul just to hopefully get it to drop, I think that says that much. His shield is awesome, no questions at all. And tank gear, I'm pretty sure I won't want my tanks to be in PvP arena gear. I don't know about others but my guild isn't really special or anything. We have our share of retards / morons who just fail at stuff but we downed Gruul in 2 days. I sure didn't remember weeks of wiping. The ONE boss that we wiped the longest to was Kael'thas (pre-nerfed, by the way. When he was actually hard and annoying) for about 3 raiding weeks. With the exception of Kael, no other boss has survived more than 3 days with serious attempts.

3) Ahh yes, skins. A mistake (I believe) on Blizzard's part. They should really just make different skins / models for the sets and stop being lazy. You have no idea how much I laughed when I saw druids and warlocks walking around with season 3 helm trying to be the next Samuel L. Jackson, looking "badass" and all. xD

4) Crafted gear is good, but it lacks a bit in stamina. You can get away with low stamina up till the beginning parts of Tier 5 content. When you get to Vashj or Kael and tier 6 content where raid wide damage is seriously painful, you'll start drooling over the tier sets. I first wore Whitemend (yes, druid wearing cloth because it was that good xD) up till Vashj where I was just getting whipped around like a potato sack. So I start picking up some tier pieces to replace them and never looked back. They served me well, no doubt, but they won't carry me to the end-game.

5) I don't see Blizzard catering to "the minority" at the moment. If anything, it's catering to the "majority" that I see. New heroic badge turn-ins (what, best shadow priest wand in the game, even beating BT loot?!) and Zul'Aman has some crazy gear that rivals tier 5 content (and some even tier 6-quality). A thought could be that why does blizz pour in so much time into 25-man content? They know most of the playerbase won't see such content, but why still? The answer is simple. It's a carrot-on-a-stick for those who actually enjoy PvE content and >> want to progress << in it.

6) If progressing one's character through its looks (from the armor / weapon pieces) is all one would like, then yes, 10 games a week arena-ing is sure to yield it. At least now there is a rating requirement so that people can't easily save up points to buy their weapons / shoulders. They actually have to play decently (and better, for the shoulders) now.

7) Random loot sucks. This is a sad timesink that Blizz decides to place in for the PvE-side of things. If only things can be normalized. =|

[siya]

See but what happens when the new expansion comes out? Everyone who tryed/are trying and spent so much time trying to get through it to get epic drops to use, when it comes out it's going to useless, because Kara is going to become like Molten Core

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by siya

See but what happens when the new expansion comes out? Everyone who tryed/are trying and spent so much time trying to get through it to get epic drops to use, when it comes out it's going to useless, because Kara is going to become like Molten Core

The funny thing was that the top guilds in the world used tier 3 with a mix of quest blues to blow through tier 5 content (this was when SSC and TK was actually hard and the trash would make anyone scream). I've seen some guilds even having raid members using a few tier 3 pieces into tier 6 content.

The top Chinese guild in the world (The Seventh, I believe that's what the guild is) leveled from 60-70, and beat the game in 51 days. I'm sure they didn't stop to farm instances and just went with whatever they had. Namely, mostly in tier 3 gear (I'm sure they replaced pieces on the way to Illidan but still, tier 3 beating tier 6 content...I'm pretty impressed).

The best gear in this expansion is by no means going to be obsolete going into the next expansion. I didn't replace my tier 3 Dreamwalker until some time into level 70. I'm sure my tier 6 epics are going to be the same.

[siya]

Originally Posted by StarTouch

The funny thing was that the top guilds in the world used tier 3 with a mix of quest blues to blow through tier 5 content (this was when SSC and TK was actually hard and the trash would make anyone scream). I've seen some guilds even having raid members using a few tier 3 pieces into tier 6 content.

The top Chinese guild in the world (The Seventh, I believe that's what the guild is) leveled from 60-70, and beat the game in 51 days. I'm sure they didn't stop to farm instances and just went with whatever they had. Namely, mostly in tier 3 gear (I'm sure they replaced pieces on the way to Illidan but still, tier 3 beating tier 6 content...I'm pretty impressed).

The best gear in this expansion is by no means going to be obsolete going into the next expansion. I didn't replace my tier 3 Dreamwalker until some time into level 70. I'm sure my tier 6 epics are going to be the same.

Well, my guild has yet to get through it, people are starting to leave to join raiding guilds to do it...Even my dad left, and he's one of the people who made the guild...Our main problem is time zones...Where on an Aus server, so when our guild raids, it's like 2am for US...then you have other people who sign up and just don't show...Then there are the people that have no idea what they are doing. They're getting annoyed because they want to get through Kara and go to Black Temple. Has any guild even gotten through Black Temple?

[Ending]

@ StarTouch

Well, if you are happy to raid, that's okay. So I don't start repeating myself, let's just say that you are one of the very few that can say what you have just said. For the rest of us it's either the arena, battlegrounds, or out.

The best gear in this expansion is by no means going to be obsolete going into the next expansion.

Don't be so sure. There has been no official word on this and if you look back, at the previous expansion, you know it is very likely that your raiding gear won't stay on your character for much longer.

[StarTouch]

@ Siya

For guilds that have gotten cleared Black Temple, you can check www.wowjutsu.com. You can see a breakdown on the number of guilds in the various dungeons / instances. Keep in mind though that wowjutsu.com does not take into account "alliances" though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

@ Wordplay

I guess we'd really have to agree to disagree on the issue of "arena, BGs, or out" hehe. I respect your opinion and I believe we >> both << have failed to consider our respective server communities, which I believe is also an important factor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

As for my current gear being "outdated" in the next expansion, of course it will be replaced. I'm just saying it won't be completely obsolete when I touch "X" level. After all, I first cleared Karazhan is a mix of quest blues and 3 pieces of tier 3 Dreamwalker. Drops just didn't go my way, bad loot streaks (go go random loot ) meant I just had to go with whatever I had into SSC and TK. Nevermind me even, the best guilds in the world really did beat SSC / TK (tier 5 content) with some members still in tier 3 (though of course, they did replace it soon enough as they progressed further in). The 3rd-ranked guild in the world (on wowjutsu.com), Last Resort, used tier 3 gear to beat Magtheridon 1.0 (a.k.a super Magtheridon with infernals that hit you for 8K and crit for 10K with channelers at 1.1 million health) as shown in their first-kill video.

Long story short, of course my gear will be replaced, no doubt and I know it. But will it be completely useless going into the next expansion? Nah, it won't and will probably still serve me for a bit in my max level days (going to be 80 in the next expansion) if I were to use this expansion as my reference. ^_^

[RWBladewing]

Sounds like you have a great guild going. I used to be into PvE for the progression aspect of it too, but my guild killed that completely. Instead of 25 people working together for a goal, it was basically me and 5-6 others trying to coach a bunch of terrible players to not screw up. It's really un-fun not knowing whether you will even be able to down Gruul after having 1-shot Void Reaver the day before, depending on who you get in the raid group. I could have left and joined another guild but all my motivation was already dead by that point. I also hated having to schedule around a game, that is probably the #1 reason I intend to never raid again.

Edit: Oh, and as for the whole gear argument thing, just consider Wordplay's position to be mine as well, he said pretty much everything I would have.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

Same here. Some of the changes were interesting PvP-wise, but I still know that priests suck pretty bad, so I'll be staying out until the expansion.

What? Priest is overall the best healer in WoW arena. If you were shadow, yeh, that spec pretty much disappeared.

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

Sounds like you have a great guild going. I used to be into PvE for the progression aspect of it too, but my guild killed that completely. Instead of 25 people working together for a goal, it was basically me and 5-6 others trying to coach a bunch of terrible players to not screw up. It's really un-fun not knowing whether you will even be able to down Gruul after having 1-shot Void Reaver the day before, depending on who you get in the raid group. I could have left and joined another guild but all my motivation was already dead by that point. I also hated having to schedule around a game, that is probably the #1 reason I intend to never raid again.

Edit: Oh, and as for the whole gear argument thing, just consider Wordplay's position to be mine as well, he said pretty much everything I would have.

I hear you and believe me, I have headaches also coaching people to perform. It's the pains of every raiding guild but 5-6 competent players trying to drag 18-19 others is pretty rough. I can understand that situation.

You could have left for another guild, as was mentioned, but you decided against that for various reasons (tired of things, scheduling). A choice that you made which I respect and also brings up the point that I made a few posts back (about choices and priorities).

As for gear, there's really not much arguement about it for me. My tier 6 is completely superior to the arena gear, I've looked, I've gemmed my equipment to the best possible state to be >> by far <<, the best possible choice in the PvE game (which I've said, is one aspect of the game).

If I step into arenas, of course I'll don my Gladiator / Merciless / Vengeful / honor pieces that I've earned (albiet, slowly) as stamina and resilience is huge in PvP. To have a rough idea on how much healing I lose, I drop by about 700 healing from my PvE gear and lose about 80 mp5. That's pretty huge if you're thinking solely about PvE but in PvP, that 4.2K health and 380 resilience that I gain more than makes up for it.

In short, PvE gear for PvE. PvP gear for PvP. You can use PvP gear for PvE, nobody's stopping you but you'll be outperformed by people using PvE gear (assuming equal skill). You can use PvE gear too for PvP, but you'll be rolled by the stronger players / teams who use PvP gear.

And like I said some time back, if one doesn't care about either aspect of the game and just wants shiny pieces of gear to show some sort of character / self-progression, then yes...arena-ing 10 games a week is sure to satisfy this.

[RWBladewing]

Yeah, I understand the whole PvE gear is for PvE and PvP gear is for PvP thing, it's just that I kinda wish it wasn't necessarily that way. Back in the day raid gear was great or at least competitive for PvP; while this may not have been "fair" to people who only PvP'd it at least gave a bit more motivation to raid, as you could actually use the gear for something else. I don't really like the whole raiding just to be able to raid more aspect that TBC introduced. Though if someone finds it fun I suppose that is more than enough reason to keep going. (Ironically though, now that I won't raid anymore I guess I am kinda shooting myself in the foot saying I'd like raid gear to be good in PvP)

Anyway, if you enjoy raiding more power to you, that is what games are all about in the end, after all.

[StarTouch]

Aye, agreed.