[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[crazysjd89]

While I am disappointed that a lot of things were not resolved, I simply get over that and look at Episode 8 as a 'tying everything up' arc, rather then a 'solution' arc. I do think that Eva's diary was a bit to much of a cock tease if he wasn't going to reveal it's contents, though.

But, I don't think it's really fair to say Ryukishi doesn't have an answer. I think Episode 7, for one, proves he does have an answer in mind. And, if he didn't have an answer, there would likely be a lot of problems with the numerous amounts of red text that have been said throughout the series.

To use the poker example used earlier, the red text is like the person who refused to show his hand going "I'll show you three or four of my cards". If he doesn't actually have that hand he claims, then showing three cards could be a problem for him. But if he shows those three cards, and they make up the hand that he claims, then it's more likely that he actually does have the hand. Though it is certainly possible that he doesn't, I doubt he would show any of his hand if he didn't.

If Ryukishi were to, in the future, release all the answers, I think Episode 8 might not be as hated by some people as it was (I can't say 'everyone', of course.) That's how I look at it. I read through Episode 8 with my own ideas on what the answer was, and while I was disappointed that there was no confirmation or denial, instead of taking it as 'there is no answer', I decided that for me, my answer would be the 'truth', at least until he reveals otherwise.

I can fully understand why people are disappointed in the ending and why they hate Episode 8, but I just thought I would state this is why I don't hate it when I'm in a similar position. Far from hating it, it was probably my second or third favorite Episode.


EDIT: To answer Circular's question, I read it.

[Will Wright]

And, if he didn't have an answer, there would likely be a lot of problems with the numerous amounts of red text that have been said throughout the series.

That's not entirely true. See that's the beauty of bluffing. It's possible for him to contradict himself as much as he wants and outright violate his red because he'll tell the reader "rest assured, I have a solution" and then he'll watch the reader come up with a good theory to go around his outrageous scenario and run with it.

To use the poker example used earlier, the red text is like the person who refused to show his hand going "I'll show you three or four of my cards". If he doesn't actually have that hand he claims, then showing three cards could be a problem for him. But if he shows those three cards, and they make up the hand that he claims, then it's more likely that he actually does have the hand. Though it is certainly possible that he doesn't, I doubt he would show any of his hand if he didn't.

The problem with that analogy is that if we assume he is just making crap up as he goes, then his red text means nothing.

For example, say he wrote the following:

2+2=5.

I do not believe that would prove he knew how the hell that could possibly be true. He could very well be just bluffing and saying "I'll tell you when you get the right answer" knowing full well that there isn't a right answer.

He could then offer a few hints such as "banana plus wireless modem equals dragon" and we'd be trying to understand just what the hell he meant. I'm clearly exaggerating with this example, but you get what I mean.

I don't think he just threw reds randomly though. That would be stupid to assume. He had some vague idea of how to get around red(Shkanon) but he never gave too much thought about how that connected with the game itself.

He had the bare basics of the mystery ready, but he couldn't come up with a way to put it all together without making it seem like bullshit.

[witchfan]

Mind, Orwell wasn't particularly well-versed in maths, or at least not very nitpicky. There are plenty enough algebraic structures that support the statement that 2+2=5.

[Used Can]

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

Spoiler for My perfect ending:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

That's not entirely true. See that's the beauty of bluffing. It's possible for him to contradict himself as much as he wants and outright violate his red because he'll tell the reader "rest assured, I have a solution" and then he'll watch the reader come up with a good theory to go around his outrageous scenario and run with it.

I should have said what I meant more clearly:

The fact that people can come up with concise answers, proves he at least had a basic idea of his solution. If he was just saying red with no idea what the solution actually was, it'd be a lot less likely that people would come up with an answer that can actually fit with all the red text.

I believe we had a debate before, and we used a puzzle comparison. To use that comparison again: We once again have a puzzle that is missing 20 or 30 pieces. The red text, in this example, are the missing pieces, but the pictures on the front are taken off. If people couldn't fit the missing pieces in, then it would be natural to assume that the pieces are part of a different puzzle and it isn't solvable and the person who gave you the missing pieces doesn't actually know where those pieces came from. But if the puzzle is solved, then it means, obviously, it is solvable, and that the person who gave the puzzle pieces must have known those pieces came from this puzzle.

Originally Posted by Will Wright

The problem with that analogy is that if we assume he is just making crap up as he goes, then his red text means nothing.

For example, say he wrote the following:

2+2=5.

I do not believe that would prove he knew how the hell that could possibly be true. He could very well be just bluffing and saying "I'll tell you when you get the right answer" knowing full well that there isn't a right answer.

He could then offer a few hints such as "banana plus wireless modem equals dragon" and we'd be trying to understand just what the hell he meant. I'm clearly exaggerating with this example, but you get what I mean.

I don't think he just threw reds randomly though. That would be stupid to assume. He had some vague idea of how to get around red(Shkanon) but he never gave too much thought about how that connected with the game itself.

He had the bare basics of the mystery ready, but he couldn't come up with a way to put it all together without making it seem like bullshit.

But, the thing is, as I said above, there are many people who came up with how 2+2=5.

However, you might be right that he didn't have a complete solution, but I think he had more then just a bare basic idea, at least. This is because, the more red that is given, the harder it becomes to, by chance, get an answer, even with a bare basic idea, eventually there would end up being some kind of impossible murder.

Let's say I were to make any random closed room, with no idea what the solution is. At first, it would be easy. There are several possible ways to get around it no matter what red I say. So I might say things like The door is locked and That is the only key to this room.

But, the more red I use, the less likely it'll be that there will be an actual solution.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

I should have said what I meant more clearly:

The fact that people can come up with concise answers, proves he at least had a basic idea of his solution. If he was just saying red with no idea what the solution actually was, it'd be a lot less likely that people would come up with an answer that can actually fit with all the red text.

I believe we had a debate before, and we used a puzzle comparison. To use that comparison again: We once again have a puzzle that is missing 20 or 30 pieces. The red text, in this example, are the missing pieces, but the pictures on the front are taken off. If people couldn't fit the missing pieces in, then it would be natural to assume that the pieces are part of a different puzzle and it isn't solvable and the person who gave you the missing pieces doesn't actually know where those pieces came from. But if the puzzle is solved, then it means, obviously, it is solvable, and that the person who gave the puzzle pieces must have known those pieces came from this puzzle.

Indeed we had this very same debate before, and I said that I would wait for the game to be concluded until I decided whether the pieces missing were important or not.

What I think of the series now is that it isn't missing just 20 or 30 pieces, but at least 50 of them. You are right in that it's hard for people to fit in those missing pieces if the puzzle does not have a defined final form.

However, say that the puzzle is more incomplete than complete. In that case, one can fit any solution in there. In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.

But, the thing is, as I said above, there are many people who came up with how 2+2=5.

However, you might be right that he didn't have a complete solution, but I think he had more then just a bare basic idea, at least. This is because, the more red that is given, the harder it becomes to, by chance, get an answer, even with a bare basic idea, eventually there would end up being some kind of impossible murder.

Let's say I were to make any random closed room, with no idea what the solution is. At first, it would be easy. There are several possible ways to get around it no matter what red I say. So I might say things like The door is locked and That is the only key to this room.

But, the more red I use, the less likely it'll be that there will be an actual solution.

Many people came up with how 2+2=5. But what if Ryuukishi wasn't one of those people?

I think that we'll never know how much he had planned in advance and how much he had no answer to.

I think he had a very general idea for them. For example, Eva's locked room in the first game. The solution is that "it wasn't locked" basically. A particularly insane fan might argue that the culprit could have used a screwdriver to take apart the door without ever damaging it or "opening" it.

That's a bad example, but you see what I mean. I think he had basic "hows" ready, but never really had a "who," as he had the excuse of "it's fiction" ready in case one of his fans couldn't come up with a good enough who.

I see what you mean though. Me calling his bluff means that I think he had some serious guts to write a story like that. But I personally think he did it, because he knew full well(from Higurashi) that his fanbase would allow that little gambit to succeed.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

However, say that the puzzle is more incomplete than complete. In that case, one can fit any solution in there. In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.

Sounds as if R07 is Featherine and we're Bern... Wait... OH SHI-

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Used Can

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

Spoiler for My perfect ending:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

Don't worry, I got it XD
Yes, I wouldn't put it past Touya.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

Don't worry, I got it XD
Yes, I wouldn't put it past Touya.

Thanks, I love you.
I really expected anyone to get this one.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Used Can

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

Spoiler for My perfect ending:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

It would be a great ending indeed!

Originally Posted by Used Can

Sounds as if R07 is Featherine and we're Bern... Wait... OH SHI-

The fact you couldn't finish your cursing leads me to the inevitable conclusion that Umineko's true culprit is candlejack. I mean, it explains ev

[LyricalAura]

[Color=Red]Knox's 5th, it is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! So long as Candlejack wasn't introduced, you ca

[crazysjd89]

Clearly you guys don't know what you're talking about, since Episode 8 told us who the culprit is.

If you cheat and get more then 17 medals, you get Tomitake as a prize. This means that Tomitake is a cheater. This also means he can ignore all red text, Knox, and Van Dine.

My logic is flawless!

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Used Can

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

Spoiler for My perfect ending:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

I think it's sad that the Japanese have probably never heard of that joke.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Rias

Having the mystery part naturally becoming some delusional fantasy isn't something new by Ryukishi07. Higurashi has already proven that.

Not necessarily a bad thing tho.

What's a delusional fantasy?

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

What's a delusional fantasy?

Fantasy is fantasy. Delusional is when someone denies certain truth or only believes otherwise. Take ep4 Maria for example.

While it's true that "happiness" is subjective, that it's up to the person to decide if they are truly happy or not, child abuse is child abuse. Sure, it's arguable if Rosa loved Maria or not, but saying that it never happened or what not, is just a delusion on your own part.

[Baru]

Without any spoilers, could anyone tell me how many endings there are for EP8? And if there are any variations of some endings?

[LyricalAura]

There are two main endings, and some extra scenes you can get along the way if you make certain choices.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

There are two main endings, and some extra scenes you can get along the way if you make certain choices.

Say, do these "certain choices" of which you speak add extra scenes to one or both of the endings?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

Say, do these "certain choices" of which you speak add extra scenes to one or both of the endings?

Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't really looked at the code yet.

[Mcjon01]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

Say, do these "certain choices" of which you speak add extra scenes to one or both of the endings?

How you do on the quiz games changes the ending of the game.

Spoiler for end:

It's only one or two completely inconsequential words, but hey, a change is a change, right?