Schniezel's viewpoints on war and how to obtain peace

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by azul120

Schneizel always seemed like a pretty cynical person willing to do anything for his idea of peace though.

Which is why I link him with early Lelouch. Except Lelouch was only using peace as a fascad for what he really wanted... revenge. Later on he started to actually believe in it, and went to get it done, no matter what the cost to his soul or those around him. Doesn't mean that they don't have people they care about though.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Which is why I link him with early Lelouch. Except Lelouch was only using peace as a fascad for what he really wanted... revenge. Later on he started to actually believe in it, and went to get it done, no matter what the cost to his soul or those around him. Doesn't mean that they don't have people they care about though.

Actually, Lelouch already did believe in peace at the same time, even though it took a backseat to his desire for revenge at times. Notably early in episode 7, there was the flashback to the moment he confronted Charles about Marianne's death, and in response to Charles' Social Darwinistic platitudes, Lelouch declared that he didn't want anything to do with it, or the familial struggles for the throne.

Lelouch did want revenge, but said desire was rooted in his abject disgust over what his father had done to him and what he stood for in his eyes.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually, Lelouch already did believe in peace at the same time, even though it took a backseat to his desire for revenge at times. Notably early in episode 7, there was the flashback to the moment he confronted Charles about Marianne's death, and in response to Charles' Social Darwinistic platitudes, Lelouch declared that he didn't want anything to do with it, or the familial struggles for the throne.

That isn't as much a call for peace as it is as separating himself frm Britannian policies on the matter.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Orga777

That isn't as much a call for peace as it is as separating himself frm Britannian policies on the matter.

In episode 5 of S1, there was that rumination of his, concurrent with Suzaku's, over what was going on due to the occupation.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Now I can understand this opinion well, and it is believable, but for some reason, I don't seem to buy into it fully. Could that have been a big reason for it? Sure, and he probably took that into consideration when he made his decision, but I still see it as being a little more than that. He isn't overtly cruel for no reason after all.

I like the idea. Actually the logic in this view is quite solid, but I still feel a bit uncomfortable. What I wonder about are his goals, his ideas, motivation. I ask and the answer I get - he had no motivation, or close to it, just did what was useful at the time and then came to that idea of "peace" through terror.
But I cannot understand how a straregist of his level could not actually have any serious plans, all his life. I feel like what Lelouch's been doing was thinking, thinking every avaliable moment about possiblities, ways, strategies - and that's why he could pull everything out. Shneizel didn't have the necessity to do all that - but if he didn't, I don't believe he could have been such a good strategist. Making plans is also a work that becomes better through training, getting better understanding of environment, of what certain people are capable of doing etc.
And that all should lead to thinking about the situation in general and ways to change it. Lelouch did it from the position of hating Britannia (in the beginning). Shneizel should have done the same from the position of Britannia.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Oh I agree that he changed from S1 to R2. I personally think that whole Euphie thing was a big cause. (His shocked face is a good point towards that... since when is Schneizel EVER shocked?) That whole incident, and then the mess with the Black Rebellion and the death of his sister could have just made him give up on hope. Lelouch almost did that too actually, but Kallen brought him back to earth (before he used Refrain) Schneizel really didn't have the luck there or the same experiences with people Lelouch had the fortune of having.

You might be right, although I'm not sure it made a greater impact than instant surprise, well, that would surprise anybody who knew Euphie even a little.
His problem was he didn't understand the feeling of valueing something, like even Cornelia did, and Lelouch. He didn't really care about anybody, enough for it to affect his plans, and that meant he rode on idea alone, cold logic mind without a heart, and that end up not leading anywhere (anywhere good at least). That was the imcompleteness that led to all his strategic mistakes. He couldn't have fully counted the feeling he didn't know himself. He did count it quite birlliantly in several occasions (listed somewhere above for example, Nina etc). But not always.
I even feel sorry for him in a way. He couldn't have the experiences Lelouch had, and mostly because of his own position he certainly couldn't back on.
But in a way, I also feel some vibe from him similar to Light. Isn't it just like this, putting criminals (well, in his case, less noble and more general thoughts) in check by terror. The same idea and same inability to treasure something.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Lelouch. He became governor of Aera 11 because he saw it as a puzzle left by Lelouch.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Lelouch, of course. xD

Edit: Ah... too slow.

How... co-operative)))) I do like the idea, really, but... any proof?))) *hope*
Since I've never even thought about it... And I tend to count all the possibilities... I'm interested)

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Orga777

lol. Sorry about that. XD

I think I can forgive you. xD

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

How... co-operative)))) I do like the idea, really, but... any proof?))) *hope*
Since I've never even thought about it... And I tend to count all the possibilities... I'm interested)

Wait... does that mean you haven't listened to the Sound Drama? O_O
Omg. How can you write Clovis so well if you haven't done that yet? xD
Uhm... just some quotes:

Spoiler:

"How many years has it been, I wonder, since the day I first saw the flame (dance?) of Marianne?"
"37 matches... 36 losses. (...) The result of our chess matches. I don't really want to admit it, but I've never won against him... against Lelouch."
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch."
"(...)The Elevens who let Lelouch die are utterly despicable, but now that I hear he had a friend, perhaps I'll have to go easy on them."
"I appreciate your advice, but first, take a good look at what I'm capable of. After all, that is Lelouch's resting place - and a place I'd like to have made as peaceful as possible."

Not to mention that he designed the garden on the top of the government building after the one from Aries' Imperial Villa, where he always used to argue with Lelouch (epsiode... 16? Omg, I actually forgot).
So... yeah, full-blown obsession. xD

Edit:
Oh, and it's Sound Drama 0.884, by the way.

[azul120]

Yes, very true. I thought about comparing Schneizel to Light Yagami as well, due to the lack of soul in both their approaches. (Except of course Light was a bit more unhinged.)

[Eleonore Magilinon]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Wait... does that mean you haven't listened to the Sound Drama? O_O
Omg. How can you write Clovis so well if you haven't done that yet? xD

Not to mention that he designed the garden on the top of the government building after the one from Aries' Imperial Villa, where he always used to argue with Lelouch (epsiode... 16? Omg, I actually forgot).
So... yeah, full-blown obsession. xD

Edit:
Oh, and it's Sound Drama 0.884, by the way.

Em... Wow? Yep, actually what I've written has been based on the parts of first two episodes plus my imagination that extended that to the maximum and filled the gaps with most probable solution) Thanks again)))
And you don't even imagine how much you helped me. I heard about it, but i never knew it has parts about Clovis... Thank goodness I found it before Clovis came into picture again. I will find and examine Sound Drama through and through. Although I do see slight contradictions in his behavior the way it is now, I feel I'll connect it soon.
And I love how his new info is falling into place perfectly (in my ff I mean), it explains some parts I was worried about being improbable.
But I feel uncomfortable for being so desicively offtopic(

About similarities in Light and Shneizel, the idea came to me just now, but it the way it fits amaze me. Like FLEIA and Damocles came into his hands just like Death Note to Light. Better to say, the possibility to create those, of course I wouldn't try to say they just came to him as he invested in their development.

However, in Light's case it was also the inner readyness for something like this as well as clearly shown "curruption" while using it. I wonder if that too can be extended to Shneizel. He does seen to be way more calm. But is it enough to assume he didn't have any "global" plan like Lelouch before coming across such projects? After all, the tendency for great and quite absurd world changing plans runs in this family.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Em... Wow? Yep, actually what I've written has been based on the parts of first two episodes plus my imagination that extended that to the maximum and filled the gaps with most probable solution) Thanks again)))
And you don't even imagine how much you helped me. I heard about it, but i never knew it has parts about Clovis... Thank goodness I found it before Clovis came into picture again. I will find and examine Sound Drama through and through. Although I do see slight contradictions in his behavior the way it is now, I feel I'll connect it soon.
And I love how his new info is falling into place perfectly (in my ff I mean), it explains some parts I was worried about being improbable.
But I feel uncomfortable for being so desicively offtopic(

*cheers*
Well, Stage 0.884 also has Schneizel in it, so I'd say it's not completely off-topic. I mean, we have to compare him to his awesome siblings, no? xD
And he even agreed with Cornelia that Clovis was "too kind" to rule after he had suggested him as a gouverner. Which tells us that... errr... Schneizel sometimes fails to take those things into account when making spontaneous plans, even though he is somewhat aware of them? xD

But somehow, I really can't compare Schneizel to Light - not any more than Lelouch. They're both sociopaths, have power and pursue great goals, but that's about it.
Light is a lot more ambitious, narcissistic and childish. I also don't think they'd get along very well, especially on Light's part. xD

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But somehow, I really can't compare Schneizel to Light - not any more than Lelouch. They're both sociopaths, have power and pursue great goals, but that's about it.
Light is a lot more ambitious, narcissistic and childish. I also don't think they'd get along very well, especially on Light's part. xD

Actually Lelouch is a lot more personable than either, even if he does go through extremities to achieve his goals. I will agree that Light is more sociopathic than Schneizel though.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually Lelouch is a lot more personable than either, even if he does go through extremities to achieve his goals. I will agree that Light is more sociopathic than Schneizel though.

Well, I was actually talking about Schneizel and Light there.
Lelouch only fits the bill because Light is also a student and a genius, gets an awesome power from a piz-... errr... an apple obsessed creature and sets then out to change the world.
I agree that personality wise, they're not very alike, though.

[azul120]

Not to mention that Lelouch acknowledges that his means aren't always noble, whereas Light is constantly self-rationalizing.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that Lelouch acknowledges that his means aren't always noble, whereas Light is constantly self-rationalizing.

Yep.
Light wants to be the epitome of justice, an infallible God. Lelouch is all right with becoming the devil instead.
And Schneizel... Schneizel simply couldn't care less what people think about him.

[Bonzo]

This isn't the right topic, but when V.V killed Marianne, after he called a person with cell phone.

Who?

Nobody know it, I doubt for Schneizel, maybe the knight of one?

[Eleonore Magilinon]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, I was actually talking about Schneizel and Light there.
Lelouch only fits the bill because Light is also a student and a genius, gets an awesome power from a piz-... errr... an apple obsessed creature and sets then out to change the world.
I agree that personality wise, they're not very alike, though.

Lelouch and Light are similar in age, this great idea to change the world, but they are completely different since Lelouch has a sister (for whom he would do anything possible and impossible, she was probably the main reason he started whole thing (in his opinion at least), he had "the important person" in his life) while Light did not. Lelouch could and did care about many people despite using thousands as pieces in his plans. He was human.
Light didn't value any life (but his, here they are different) while following his idea, he was obsessed with one view he had of the world and never cared for anybody enough to alter his plans. Shneizel is the same on this point. He did shot Cornelia without a second thought. Yes, he probably figured that she won't die, but... He didn't stop the shot of Avalon or how it was when Euphie was too close not to be damaged. He never shown any real care for anybody. And finally his idea of rule through terror.
There are differences, of course. He didn't value his life as Light did, actually, he cared less for everything, how others viewed him etc (as pointed out before). But there's one striking similarity.
Btw, the latter part could be explained by his origins. As a part of royal family, he wouldn't care about what people who're below him would think.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Yep.
Light wants to be the epitome of justice, an infallible God. Lelouch is all right with becoming the devil instead.
And Schneizel... Schneizel simply couldn't care less what people think about him.

Exactly. Light was interested in his own idea of justice and believed himself to be a god, which ultimately got in his own way. Lelouch didn't care about what happened to himself or what he came across as as long as he accomplished his goals. He had a narcissistic streak to be certain, but Lelouch didn't let himself get in the way as Light did.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

This isn't the right topic, but when V.V killed Marianne, after he called a person with cell phone.

Who?

Nobody know it, I doubt for Schneizel, maybe the knight of one?

I'm not sure it was anybody of importance (the Knight of One is loyal to the Emperor rather than V.V, and we know V.V. kind of believed Charles didn't know it was him who killed her since he lied). Maybe just some loyal underling or such. I've heard something about it being Shneizel who carried the body out under Emperor's orders, but I'm not sure and seems like it was after "set up" rather than original murder.
Although both possibilities does open a way for Schneizel if not to know, but to feel somethin fishy going on. Maybe it was the original reason for his research? Trying to reveal something he felt was there?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Btw, the latter part could be explained by his origins. As a part of royal family, he wouldn't care about what people who're below him would think.

I think it's more an essential part of Schenizel's basic personality. He doesn't care about other people's opinions in the same way he doesn't care about innocents getting hurt if it serves the greater good.
It's why I think you can't really compare him to Light... what you said is true, but their motives are much too different. One of the things that define Light is his ambition and perfectionism. Schneizel makes it a point not to be "greedy".
Light is "childish" and always has to win, even if it doesn't achieve anything. Schneizel doesn't really care and would deliberately risk to lose an official competition with something at stake just to get a better understanding of the person he is dealing with.
Also, Schneizel still seemed to care a lot more about people's lives than Light. Considering he has no attachments, that says something.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I think it's more an essential part of Schenizel's basic personality. He doesn't care about other people's opinions in the same way he doesn't care about innocents getting hurt if it serves the greater good.
It's why I think you can't really compare him to Light... what you said is true, but their motives are much too different. One of the things that define Light is his ambition and perfectionism. Schneizel makes it a point not to be "greedy".
Light is "childish" and always has to win, even if it doesn't achieve anything. Schneizel doesn't really care and would deliberately risk to lose an official competition with something at stake just to get a better understanding of the person he is dealing with.
Also, Schneizel still seemed to care a lot more about people's lives than Light. Considering he has no attachments, that says something.

You're right, I meant it as an addition))). And we've been discussing that about Shneizel's personality for pages now... I just wonder why he is the way he is, and that's a really stupid thing to do.

And as I'm starting to contradict myself and see things when they're clearly not there I think it's time to go to sleep...

[Schneizel]

K, I can't do this anymore without punching something.

I see a "Schneizel and Light Yagami" comparison and some "Schneizel is hurt on the inside hurr durr he changed after the Euphinator" stuff. I thought we hit peak facepalm at "Zero is comparable to Jesus" but I guess not. Sometimes I wonder what series I was watching because it's totally different from whatever you saw. It's like you guys are inventing scenes in your head to get the implications you want to make statements like these...