(L) Vivid Red Operation

[totoum]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

You're exaggerating, there do exist recent anime that aren't moe at all, even if they are centered around girls : Madoka

Here's your 2011 saimoe winner
Look at the quarter finals,3 out of 4 girls are from madoka.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

^ erm, without trying to be slightly off topic or rude, isn't Unicorn the living example of the good real robot genre coming back to our age? O.o Even though it's probably at the current date the only one, (and considering you're not a fan of the Code Geass genre either that is) it better than nothing ... I'd even say it's really worth praising.

It's like Unicorn isn't selling better than every real robot show before it or something! If only it could be the best selling OVA series ever or something, than it would show mecha is saved! Mecha is dead didn't you hear? Slice of life dominates it even though the 2 Code Geass, 2 Gundam 00 and Macross Frontier TV series were incredibly successful over the last 6 years.... Not to mention the 2 Frontier Movies as well as Gundam 00... those Evangelion movies... total flops.

No one wants to watch mecha, look @ Gundam AGE it flopped all because of the genre and nothing else! Not like we have a set of Code Geass OVA's lined up that could potentially be similar to Unicorn in sales! Eva 3.0? pfft. You would have to be crazy to think that the mecha genre was the best selling genre of the last decade or something! I mean it's not like mecah anime being more expensive to produce in an industry that's notoriously cheap has anything to do with the lack of mecha output!

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by totoum

Here's your 2011 saimoe winner
Look at the quarter finals,3 out of 4 girls are from madoka.

^ hoy hoy, just because they won it, doesn't mean there's actual "moe" in the series, it's just the result of the Otaku's obsession over a massively popular show ... or would you say K-on!'s the best anime of 2009-2010 because it won several prices two years in a row?

Originally Posted by Westlo

It's like Unicorn isn't selling better than every real robot show before it or something! If only it could be the best selling OVA series ever or something, than it would show mecha is saved! Mecha is dead didn't you hear? Slice of life dominates it even though the 2 Code Geass, 2 Gundam 00 and Macross Frontier TV series were incredibly successful over the last 6 years.... Not to mention the 2 Frontier Movies as well as Gundam 00... those Evangelion movies... total flops.
No one wants to watch mecha, look @ Gundam AGE it flopped all because of the genre and nothing else! Not like we have a set of Code Geass OVA's lined up that could potentially be similar to Unicorn in sales! Eva 3.0? pfft. You would have to be crazy to think that the mecha genre was the best selling genre of the last decade or something!

Eh I don't really get where you're going O.o. Are you guys talking about sales or the quality of the show itself? From my part, I was talking about quality saying UC and the others are good shows, not that they were incredibly successful. And if we're talking about Sales and all, it's not like I don't know which genre dominates the market since 2006 ... but how can you say Eva was a flop with 2 and 4 Billion respectively in the box office and 900K in sales?! O.o

Edit : I forgot the discussion was about the real robot genre coming back in the sense of good Gundam like mecha fighting and not mecha musume or the mecha-sub genre Evangelion created ... or I might have gotten it wrong >.>

[totoum]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

^ hoy hoy, just because they won it, doesn't mean there's actual "moe" in the series, it's just the result of the Otaku's obsession over a massively popular show ... or would you say K-on!'s the best anime of 2009-2010 because it won several prices two years in a row?

Ok let's start over,basically the thought of Madoka not having moe characters in it seems so strange to me that I really have a hard understanding why you'd say that so could you explain?

And to tie this back to Vinto de Pint,we know this is going to have a few female protagonists so what would the anime need to do for them to be moe or not moe?

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by totoum

Ok let's start over,basically the thought of Madoka not having moe characters in it seems so strange to me that I really have a hard understanding why you'd say that so could you explain?

And to tie this back to Vinto de Pint,we know this is going to have a few female protagonists so what would the anime need to do for them to be moe or not moe?

For me, I always call Madoka moe because of the artstyle, but I know moe is used for cute females' emotions and have the will of being protected with cutesy. As for Vinto de Pint, since the characters are most likely drawn in a cute artstyle, I'll expect the moe overdose for them.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by totoum

Ok let's start over,basically the thought of Madoka not having moe characters in it seems so strange to me that I really have a hard understanding why you'd say that so could you explain?

ok : Madoka doesn't have the usual trait of trait "moe character" that incite the viewers to have the specific reaction of finding them really "cute" or having some kind of attraction or desire to hug and cherish them as the usual moe character would, because :

1. the hidamari sketch-ish design of course makes them look like some children that would attract the attention of casual lolicon(s) who'd them cute (and probably is the main factor why people think it's moe). Alas, it gives the impression their design aren't drawn with the "best quality there is" ... and is in a very low level of cuteness compared to the usual bishoujo or cute young female character nowadays. (and no need to say that it was done on purpose, leading to the conclusion the show actually have an unique charm with it ... see 4)

2. On top of that, the total absence of the usual moe personality tropes, the nonexistence of real fanservice (barely the innocent ones ... at best if you really try hard with the BD version you can add up to a total of "subjective fanservice" 45s for their transformations and 1m30s for ep 12 ) and their nigh-realistic personality interfere more than often with any probable moe-trait of the show.

3. the story is just too dark, and the viewers are globally shown the tragic side of the show and the characters' sufferings ... and it's not innocent tears that would accentuate their cuteness that you'll get, but tears of despair that make them look pitiable (or do you find it's cute and moe seeing sayaka snapping? ... and it's not even on the same scale as yangire or yandere who at least doesn't really suffer that much when they kill and are really cute/attractive in their dere mode).

4. The cherry-like character design hits backward (from the cuteness) in the dark and complexe universe the story is set, and their constant suffering doesn't make it look better (moe-wise that is) ... creating an Happy tree friends-like effect combined with the deception/surprise of previously expecting a moe-blob show and getting a break-the-cutie parade instead (the trolling of Urobutcher)

Originally Posted by totoum

And to tie this back to Vinto de Pint,we know this is going to have a few female protagonists so what would the anime need to do for them to be moe or not moe?

As Misaofan said : cute character design (they are cute ^^), "14 year-old" : the age that most of the time otaku think to be where girls last conserve their "innocence", 5 MC (innocent yuri scenes?), the story is set on Islands ... and nowadays island always connote swimsuit and beach episode (for it fanservice + cute 14-year-old shy girl = super cute). And finally the eventuality of having a Mecha musume anime induce a high probability of breast, butt and pantyshot (though most of them might be pettanko)

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

I see, well It's just like how One swallow does not make a summer, is it?

Exactly.

You're exaggerating, there do exist recent anime that aren't moe at all, even if they are centered around girls : Madoka (believe it or not ), Un-go, Gundam Age (if you consider being a loli itself is not moe though), Eden of the east, most Ghibli and other Production IG movies ... if you're seeing something that can be called "moe" or "fanservice" in them it might have been unintentional.

They're very rare, and I don't think your examples are necessarily the best. Madoka (as evidenced by many other responses) is generally considered fairly Moé. Many dark series contain a lot of Moé, a great example being Higurashi. Madoka is fairly subtle though. However the basic idea of Moé is to elicit a "loving/protective" sensation in the viewer, which Madoka certainly does. Likewise, ghibli actually originated a lot of Moé elements, for instance Nausicaa is actually considered one of the first Moé characters, as is Sheeta in Laputa. The difference is that Ghibli never conciously went out to make Moé the way many current producers do. A good example of a show without much Moé would be something like the Tatami galaxy, or Mushishi. But most recent "mainstream" anime contains some Moé.

Seems like the moe is settled, then, ...about the other one ... I wasn't born yet at the time so I don't really know (I watched Diebuster though) but I still believe you made a very good point, that's for sure.

I'd definitely reccomend Gunbuster, it's a lot better (and less fanservicey) then Diebuster, though Diebuster isn't bad either.

But, even so, it's not impossible for a not-so impressive female lead to fit in a good mecha anime. After all, "burning passion" isn't actually that essential for any mecha series in the first place, say most successful Gundam series (that doesn't have Char and Armuro as leading roles >.>), as well as Evangelion, and the some of the Macross series all have half backed MC but are still very good series and unforgettable references (well that's what deconstruction are for).
I assert the plot and the mecha battle themselves can make a Mecha series a good one (but not certainly epic though) without having " stunning guys armed with guts and unshakable feelings" as the tip of the sword, just being interesting on their own way and fitting their own context is enough, isn't it? ^^

Personally I think the Guts and Passion are a big part of what makes Mecha what it is. Some shows are more subtle about it then others (for instance very few shows are quite as blatant as, say, Gurren Lagaan). And that goes for both Super and Real Robot. About the only exception I can think of is Evangelion, and the shows like it, but those shows are meant to "anti- mecha" type shows anyway.

If we look at Gundam, Kira Yamato(Gundam Seed) was passionate, and Setsuna F Seiei (Gundam 00) also became rather passionate, likewise Amuro Ray and Char as you noted. If we look at Macross, it's generally quirky, as Mecha goes, but Macross as always contained a fair dose of melodrama, and fairly passionate dudes. The original Macross had Maximillian Jenius, and Roy Focker, while Hikaru came through in the end. Likewise Macross Frontier's Alto was generally pretty gutsy too.

If we look at Real Robot in particular, while it's certainly more realistic then a super robot show, it's still not that realistic. Part of what a Mecha setting is all about is to make conflicts a lot more personal. Rather then millions of faceless peons shooting each other on a nameless battlefield, you have the modern equivalent of Samurai Warriors, or Knights, facing off with each other. A Genre that consists of men piloting 50 foot tall man sized robots facing off in single combat to determine the fate of civilization is not one based on subtlety (and I wouldn't have it any other way ). The whole point is that it's Romantic (in the medieval sense). When their best friend dies, characters don't brood in the corner feeling shellshocked, no, they cry buckets, and go on "revenge" sprees! When they're fighting their enemies, they don't quietly focus on winning the battle, no they have long speeches talking about why they're right, and why their enemy is wrong, all the while trading blows from their lazer swords!

It's notable that most Real Robot Mecha share a lot of similiarities with Chinese epics like Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and other epics. I don't think this is a coincidence. Mecha is all about heroism. Super Robot draws from "man vs. beast" type stories, where the Mecha replaces the heros amazing sword and shield. Real Robot draws from more realistic (but still heroic) epics like the Iliad or RoTK, again, where the emphasis is more about heroic men fighting one another. but a lot of the story telling elements of Mecha shows can be seen in old style epics. For instance, lest you complain about Mecha pilots stopping mid fight to make speeches, in the Iliad, they stop midfight to tell each other all about their ancestors, and why they were so amazing! All the heightened melodrama in Mecha is in a very similiar style.

In addition, because Real Robot mecha are frequently unglamourous mass produced models (except in Gundam ), the focus has to be much more on the pilots personality in order to make him stand out. That's why I think Larger then Life personalities (which often entails Burning Passion) is such a big part of Mecha. Mecha is all about being BIG, and that goes for personality too.

The reason that female protagonists often fail in Mecha, is that in Anime girls are not usually endowed with these kind of big traits(largely for Japanese cultural reasons, Yamato Nadesico are prized for their steadyness and caring disposition, not their bombast), so the saga lacks it's centre, it's hero(es). But it certainly can be done, but the leading lady needs to be played as a hero, not a glorified supporting character (which is what often happens).

[totoum]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

ok : Madoka doesn't have the usual trait of trait "moe character" that incite the viewers to have the specific reaction of finding them really "cute" or having some kind of attraction or desire to hug and cherish them as the usual moe character would, because :

I'm pretty darn sure there's plenty of viewers that feel like huging and cherrishing them,that's why seeing their tragic fate got so much emotional responses from the viewers.

In answer to:

1. The level of cuteness of the design is a subjective thing,there's people that find them extremely cute ,I'm one of them and I'm sure the staff thinks so as well, I honestly don't think they went with these designs because they thought they were low level cuteness.

2. There's plenty of moe characters that show up in animes that lack fanservice,animes like Azumanga Daioh's fanservice consists of swimsuits,shows like Sketchbook or Tamayura are even more tame.So to me discussing fanservice is totaly off topic.

3.The overall tone of a story has no impact on whether or not a character is moe or not,Neon Genisis evangelion's tone doesn't stop Rei from being moe.
I don't find it cute to see Sayaka snap,I find it tragic to see the cute genky tomeboyish girl from episode 1 snap.

4. you can't break the cutie unless you create the cutie first, Madoka Magica used moe to quickly get viewer attachment to the girls and their fates.

As Misaofan said : cute character design (they are cute ^^), "14 year-old" : the age that most of the time otaku think to be where girls last conserve their "innocence", 5 MC (innocent yuri scenes?), the story is set on Islands ... and nowadays island always connote swimsuit and beach episode (for it fanservice + cute 14-year-old shy girl = super cute). And finally the eventuality of having a Mecha musume anime induce a high probability of breast, butt and pantyshot (though most of them might be pettanko)

Again you bring fanservice (with breasts,butts,panty shots) into this which to me is off topic.

Whether Vinto de Pint will go for a setting similar to Rinne no Lagrange or a more distopian setting like AKB0048 isn't going to have an influence on if the characters in it are moe or not.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

1. the hidamari sketch-ish design of course makes them look like some children that would attract the attention of casual lolicon(s) who'd them cute (and probably is the main factor why people think it's moe). Alas, it gives the impression their design aren't drawn with the "best quality there is" ... and is in a very low level of cuteness compared to the usual bishoujo or cute young female character nowadays. (and no need to say that it was done on purpose, leading to the conclusion the show actually have an unique charm with it ... see 4)

As a general rule, I’d say if it’s seinen and it has cutesy character designs reminiscent of shoujo works, you can assume that the show is prima facie (“on the face of it”) moe. Because it almost always is.

Moe is pretty much slang for blooming or budding. And moe art is impressionistic – it’s meant to convey the sensation of a girl “blooming” – or, let’s try a synonym, “flowering”. You need to capture a certain girlish kind of vitality.

Mami definitely has it. As powerful as she is, there’s always a sort of feminine elegance to everything she does, even in combat. (The most memorable Mami cosplay I saw at Sakuracon – which, having Gen Urobuchi in attendance, had a lot of Madoka cosplay – was a young woman with a lot of dance background. She had a way of bringing the character to life with her poses that really stood out.)

Madoka and Sayaka are even more obvious IMO because of their costumes. Those colours. And all those frills.

(I’m very tempted to see how far I can stretch this “flowering” analogy. Sick girl characters are like the single flower in a wasteland – kind of a delicate beauty. While someone like Hitagi Senjougahara is more like a rose – beautiful, but prickly, especially to the unwary.)

Originally Posted by desrtsku

2. On top of that, the total absence of the usual moe personality tropes, the nonexistence of real fanservice (barely the innocent ones ... at best if you really try hard with the BD version you can add up to a total of "subjective fanservice" 45s for their transformations and 1m30s for ep 12 ) and their nigh-realistic personality interfere more than often with any probable moe-trait of the show.

Several of them are meant to evoke moe archetypes, with Madoka herself being the most obvious. “Clumsy but good natured” is practically the default personality for protagonist girls in moe shows assuming the lead character is female, the only real question is how much fighting spirit they have thrown in. Seriously, the archetype is everywhere… K-On, Hanasaku Iroha, Strike Witches, and Sora no Woto all have lead characters that fit it, to name just a few.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

-snip-

Well you also have "Moemura" as the clumsy girl, but then again those archetypes were never that highlighted in the series, they were given those traits not for the usual fan pleasing goal, but to give the show either a semblance of softness in the context (in regard of what one would expect for those kind of show) or to emphasize with character development. This is even more effective since Madoka steps on a very popular genre "mahou shoujo" which has been touched like that more than often and got every possible kinds of sub-genre but still maintain a stereotype, so using very common traits for the characters is inevitable ... but they aren't left there as they are. >.>
Past a certain point in the series, you can always observe the disappearance of certain traits in favor to other ones, for instance Madoka's clumsiness is the result of Homura overprotecting her, or Homura loses her clumsiness in exchange of a stronger personality (even if she's still in the hot-&-cold class) ... as they show respective sense of sacrifice in the process ; same for Sayaka who revert to a colder personality, while Kyoko got softer instead ... and both of them having an issue about how to behave in this dark world ; and Mami who usually strong and protective became a friend killer when she snapped. As you can see, none of the popular idom you mentioned never got this kind of manipulation of their personalities ... To put it bluntly, while you have some tropes that's recurrent in moe/popular shows each character has another personality darker and more realist in contradiction to it => that's why I said it's not so smart to call this show a moe one
Same goes with their design, this cute and cherry design is what one would see in usual Mahou Shoujo, light hearted magical stuffs, etc ... while the universe is as dark as Saya no Uta's. As such, they also have a totally different design (real Eldritch abominations) representing their witches ... strange to say that the two obvious ones are the ones who became witches in the anime/manga, while the other 3 don't have witches (not counting the PSP game where they have a witch version when you lose) Homura had a physical change as her personality grew colder, Mami got the most drastic change of personality among them (but nothing about her appearance, and Kyoko has a present and past version one with a normal design and one with a psychedelic one.

[MisaoFan]

Even though it's going to be a mecha musume show, they at least show fanservice prominently during fight scenes, since the main heroines will wear skimpy yet armored bodysuits.

[desrtsku]

oh dammit!! I forgot what the thread was about again ... sorry for being off topic ^^

To Totum : sorry I didn't see your reply previously. Well, that's some good counter argument. Though I'd like to precise by fanservice I didn't mean to speak about pervert stuffs but innocent fanservice (eg : seeing a cute girl blush, saying a cute phrase, shipping, wearing cute clothes, mahou transformation/even the non-partial-nude one etc ... yep they are fanservice too) or like wise using these moe traits to entertain the fan even if it's just for a few seconds (though I did mean it that way for Vinto-de-pint). Well it's true, the story doesn't have impact on how moe a character should be but unlike these girl Ayanami didn't get this kind of character development (rather her slenderness and seeing her getting attached to a certain somebody made her cute), she's still a light within this darkness. On the other hand, the characters from Madoka never had any real chance to make this sort of appeal to begin with.

you can't break the cutie unless you create the cutie first, Madoka Magica used moe to quickly get viewer attachment to the girls and their fates.

*think hard and make some research for 1 about hour*
...
ok I lost, please forgive me , I really don't know how to answer that, so let's say Madoka isn't that moe instead ^^"

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

-snip-

sorry I didn't see your reply either ^^"
Yeah, that's right, I also mostly liked Gurren Laggan because of how charismatic and appealing Kamina was (and latter on Simon too) though I think those traits are more present with Gainax shows than any others (who are more other the top that what's already other the top ... minus Demonbane). But, reading your comment (which was super long BTW >.>) also makes me think of how much of an impact Evangelion has on the mecha and the dark genre, and makes me think of either the mecha show reminiscent of Eva can be put in the same deconstruction category or in the general category (but let's forget that).
As for Gundam, I didn't think Kira had that much of passion at first he was too irresolute and emotive (certainly he got better as time goes on, but it still takes some 20~25 episode before arriving at that point ... nonetheless we always welcome character developments ) ; however in Seed Destiny Shin was far from being impressive and interesting from the beginning to the end (thank god the cool guys were still there). Gundam 00 ... no comment. Macross no comment. But let's just precise that Melodrama is more abut the plot then the characters.
3 Paragraph explanation : globally, you resumed Gurren Laggan in a respectable amount of words . Well firstly, many components are to be taken in account if I follow you : spectacular fights, story of an epic and fabulous quest, and and the guy. But through using the same line of reasoning, if everything must be big then everything is just as important; like I said average characters can somehow fit in an excessively other the top mecha show as long as the writing, action, etc fill the blank left by the epicness of the character ... though the show might be not as complete as it should be, but it will still be a very good mecha series. Examples have been cited already, so let's keep it there. Though you're right on one important point, the perfect mecha show one that really deserves to be called a masterpiece of the genre must have a superb lead (not count the special exception we already know).
Madoka thing : after being lectured about it by 3 people in 2 days, I think I got the lesson
As for, the Ghibli thing, Nausicaa, Sheeta, probably Kiki, Shihiro and limit Arrietty too are ok, but the others are just too straight to be moe I think O.o

I'd definitely reccomend Gunbuster, it's a lot better (and less fanservice) then Diebuster, though Diebuster isn't bad either.

Ok I'll try it , but please don't make it sound like I watch anime for that reason, ... even though it's not far from the truth >.>

Back on TOPIC :

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

Even though it's going to be a mecha musume show, they at least show fanservice prominently during fight scenes, since the main heroines will wear skimpy yet armored bodysuits.

thanks for appeasing the tension. But we have to confirm who the staff is to be totally sure. ^^" (though we're 60% sure at this point)
Also there's something that bugs me about the two Island thing ... are they at war or just two different part of the same prefecture?

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

thanks for appeasing the tension. But we have to confirm who the staff is to be totally sure. ^^" (though we're 60% sure at this point)
Also there's something that bugs me about the two Island thing ... are they at war or just two different part of the same prefecture?

I always think the two islands are on the same prefecture, but the second island should be created by the academy's director for evil purposes.

EDIT : 15th mystery revealed : The series' composer is also a mangaka.

[duckroll]

The second last hint is that the main writer also works as a writer for original manga works. (This does not mean the writer is an artist, because many manga today have both an artist and a writer.)

Edit: I'm going to make a wild guess.

Main Writer - Tow Ubukata
Mecha Design - Range Murata

[desrtsku]

^ and you had to think of the writer of notable dark series (-w-) ...

[MisaoFan]

My wild guess is :
Director : Yasuomi Umetsu
Series Composition : Yasuomi Umetsu, Tow Ubukata
Character Designer : Yasuomi Umetsu
Mecha Designer : Yutaka Izubuchi, okama or Shigeto Koyama
Animation Production : AIC ASTA

[duckroll]

Actually if you think about it, a staff line up like this is pretty believable:

Original Concept: Yasuomi Umetsu
Director: Yasuomi Umetsu
Series Composition: Yasuomi Umetsu, Tow Ubukata
Main Writer: Tow Ubukata
Character Design: Yasuomi Umetsu
Mechanical Design: Range Murata

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by duckroll

Mechanical Design: Range Murata

I thought it was a joke, but I'm very dissapointed by Range Murata being a mecha designer for this show. I prefer when the designs looks like they're drawn by observerz, but I hope the kind of mecha musume would be like this or this.

[duckroll]

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

I thought it was a joke, but I'm very dissapointed by Range Murata being a mecha designer for this show. I prefer when the designs looks like they're drawn by observerz, but I hope the kind of mecha musume would be like this or this.

It's my guess, but Tow Ubukata and Range Murata did work very closely together on the cancelled Mardock Scramble OVA which was being produced by GONZO, remember? That's what made me realize that Range Murata is also a mecha designer who does a lot of original character designs. It also fits the design sense, because I think Range Murata's art style is much better at complimenting Umetsu's character designs.

But who knows, you could be right, and it could be okama. He also worked with Ubukata before, doing designs for Chevalier. (Whoops, it was toi8, not okama.)

[Scarletknive]

Originally Posted by duckroll

The second last hint is that the main writer also works as a writer for original manga works. (This does not mean the writer is an artist, because many manga today have both an artist and a writer.)

Edit: I'm going to make a wild guess.

Main Writer - Tow Ubukata
Mecha Design - Range Murata

Dont take things while I am not around...(I was watching Tasogare Otome and Sket Dance...)

Take all things into account, while we can answer all questions.
-Who done original manga stuffs.
-Who will fit in all the stuffs...

The last one I will do, no one is to steal If steal again, I will kiraboshii you to bits.