Ever been discriminated against as an otaku?

[Matrim]

Actually, you infer the majority/minority argument right there: most people (myself included) did not really mind the brief seconds of (implied and colorfully silhouetted) nudity over Macross Frontier's last episode.

Not to mention that it's hard to argue that this fanservicy moment was more, well, fanservicy, than some of the skimpy outfits Sheryl shows in episode one or the fanservice galore known as episode eight. I mean, it's not as if the show was totally puritanical from the start and inexplicably put out of the blue fanservice in the last episode.

I simply used Macross as an example of unnecessary fanservice. I talked about paying customers and purchasing power, and that the paying die-hards for some reason like fanservice irrelevant to the story inserted.

Isn't fanservice by definition irrelevant to the story anyway?

[Ryougi Shiki]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Sorry but lolicon =/= pedo.

I find it amazing how people just have to think that liking a "loli-ish" character automatically makes them hunt for 10 year old girls on the streets. Amazing logic.

As for the OP question.
Never had had discrimination for being an "otaku" and hope it doesn't come anytime soon.

Let's not get into this argument again, I haven't seen actual evidence from either side.

If you think about it from a subjective view, being aroused by underage, underdeveloped girls sounds like pedophilia just from the description. There's no getting around it.

[yoruichi fan]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

But anime is a highly exotic medium and the "normal person" is perfectly happy without any kind of foreign cartoon. Stop your torrents and switch on the TV and you'll see what the normal person (sane or not) requires.

Now how can you say that anyone is normal here. There is no such thing as a normal person because there is no exact match between two people. And i am confused as to why you brought up turning on the tv and watching some stupid crap that i cant see how people enjoy it?? (personal opinion).
here we go again with the generalizations that make you look like an @$$ because you are making people mad by assuming things that arent true or are insulting. (sorry i just hate this kind of thing)

[yezhanquan]

And I get turned on by violence and crapsack worlds. Does that mean I seriously want it to happen to our world?

[yoruichi fan]

dude dont be bagging on people. And it is true most of the time things from tv or movies rarely transfer to real life. Like all the action movies that people watch. people are always getting shot up and you dont see the world degrade into anarchy because they like watching violence. It just doesnt happen. Please think before speaking

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Ryougi Shiki

You just TRY explaining how much you think fictitious underage children are hot to an average person on the street.

42% of people think that pornography (ALL pornography) should be illegal. (1) 55% of people believe they've been helped in their life by a real, honest to goodness "angel"...a supernatural being. (2)

The "average person on the street" is a goddamn idiot. Their uneducated and biased opinions have little value in a serious, intellectual discussion.

(1) Gregory B. Lewis. "Comparing Attitudes of Bureaucrats and Ordinary People." Public Administration Review 50: 220-227
(2) http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...842179,00.html

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom

I never talked about majority, nor the subject of which particular anime deserves more episodes. I simply used Macross as an example of unnecessary fanservice. I talked about paying customers and purchasing power, and that the paying die-hards for some reason like fanservice irrelevant to the story inserted.

Oh, it's that misunderstanding again? Otaku, the "die-hard fans", the people you loathe so much that you liken them to Al Qaida, they are the majority of anime fans. And of course the money they spend ("their purchasing power" as you put it here, or them being "the biggest market" as you put it before) is the only factor that counts here anyway. Getting the anime you want is not a human right, you have to pay for it.

And furthermore, the real otaku are mostly Japanese and anime is a Japanese medium, which gives them a special say in that matter.. Be happy that for once a local (sub-)culture hasn't been steamrolled by the global entertainment industry ... yet.

Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom

Exotic? Not where I live - Hong Kong is a place of Japan-worshippers and adults watch Keroro!

Fine, and most Germans of my age have seen an anime too. But that doesn't make them fans. If in Hong Kong, people spend 25 minutes per week of their lives on anime, it's still an exotic medium. And I'm willing to bet that most of HK were perfectly happy without anime - or at least not any less happy than before. But maybe I'm wrong and Hong Kong is an oasis of raving fans, I have no idea. But globally, and that includes China, anime fans are a small minority.

Also, Keroro Gunso is a kids show if I'm not mistaken. That shouldn't stop adults from watching it but it also shows that it is not the typical anime. The example only proves that you can always find another anime if you're repelled by certain shows.

All in all, anime is an offer to you - for free (even if not legally so). If the benefits don't outweigh the shortcomings then choose your anime more carefully or drop the medium altogether.

Originally Posted by yoruichi fan

Now how can you say that anyone is normal here. There is no such thing as a normal person because there is no exact match between two people. And i am confused as to why you brought up turning on the tv and watching some stupid crap that i cant see how people enjoy it?? (personal opinion). here we go again with the generalizations that make you look like an @$$ because you are making people mad by assuming things that arent true or are insulting. (sorry i just hate this kind of thing)

You can just write "ass". Even if you can't see it, the "normal people" do like the crap on TV otherwise they wouldn't watch it. And no, we anime fans are not "normal" especially not in the eyes of all those "normal" people.

I'm only saying if you want to give the "sane and normal people" a voice over what's not their business then be careful what you wish for. Because the next thing what happens is that the "sane and normal people" will come to you and make a few adjustments to your life.

[KitsuneNineTails]

Originally Posted by Ryougi Shiki

Let's not get into this argument again, I haven't seen actual evidence from either side.

If you think about it from a subjective view, being aroused by underage, underdeveloped girls sounds like pedophilia just from the description. There's no getting around it.

You may have meant "OBjective" view (subjective would mean "biased by the subject", subject being you, me, etc.). Pedophilia is, of course, sexual "love" (philia) for children (pedo). What constitutes "child" varies from person to person, but LEGALLY, it only applies when it's a real person under "legal age" (between 16 and 18 in USA/Japan). Fictional characters don't count, at least in the US (which is still currently protected by the supreme court's rulings). So, I guess it just depends how far you want to go with the definition and label.

EDIT: I stand corrected by Mushi and einhorn below.

I would wager that a lot of people have fantasies (romantic or not) that they would never indulge in in real life. I'm not sure I can buy that having those fantasies means that one will necessarily break the law to obtain them. But, like you said, there is a dearth of evidence to show that watching/reading loli manga/anime leads to actual pedophilia (by the law's definition). So, I would like to see the connection between loli and pedophilia withheld unless backed up by real evidence, not emotion or moral/religious beliefs.

42% of people think that pornography (ALL pornography) should be illegal. (1) 55% of people believe they've been helped in their life by a real, honest to goodness "angel"...a supernatural being. (2)

The "average person on the street" is a goddamn idiot. Their uneducated and biased opinions have little value in a serious, intellectual discussion.

(1) Gregory B. Lewis. "Comparing Attitudes of Bureaucrats and Ordinary People." Public Administration Review 50: 220-227
(2) http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...842179,00.html

A) I have to agree with the conclusion, even though I think I have a different set of givens and logical steps to get there.
B) I'm impressed with the reference citations! Don't usually see that in a topic that usually devolves into a flame fest.

Ciao!

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle

Having a weird deja vu of coming to defend porn again, but where the hell did you pull that 42% from? Women's magazine? Surely can't be an official scientifical objective research

You don't live in the South, do you?

(Though it is from the 90's).

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle

Having a weird deja vu of coming to defend porn again, but where the hell did you pull that 42% from? Women's magazine? Surely can't be an official scientifical...

Um... did you bother to look at his reference cite #1?

[Mirtual]

Nope.
Never.
But as some of my friends tell me it can happen to you as a cosplayer quite often. No miracle considering they thend to walk the streets rather "strange" for an outsider

[Kaze]

Hmm
A year ago when I was still stuck with asshole kiddies as classmates it was pretty brutal, (The average brain of them goes -> Anime = kids cartoons, "har har u r a nub")

But now?
I can't say I am being looked at weirdly,
People actually find it interesting that I watch anime, draw it even.
They seem to be fascinated that I know Japanese to a certain degree.

[Mushi]

Originally Posted by yoruichi fan

Now how can you say that anyone is normal here.

"Normal is just a setting on your dryer." ~Patsy Clairmont

Originally Posted by KitsuneNineTails

Pedophilia is, of course, sexual "love" (philia) for children (pedo). What constitutes "child" varies from person to person, but LEGALLY, it only applies when it's a real person under "legal age" (between 16 and 18 in USA/Japan).

*feels obliged to point out...*

National age of consent in Japan is 13. But, prefecture law can override that and the age is 18 in many prefectures. So, age of consent in Japan is often cited as being 13-18.

Just Google "age of consent japan" for more.

Not saying it's "okay", but if the law specifies that, then the underlying mentality might be that it's not as taboo as some make it out to be.

And, no... never been discriminated against for being "otaku." But then, I don't advertise it. Although, a friend stopped by with a new girlfriend once and she became strangely quiet when she saw my anime figures and wall scrolls.

[anselfir]

so young and naive, and exploitable

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by KitsuneNineTails

Pedophilia is, of course, sexual "love" (philia) for children (pedo). What constitutes "child" varies from person to person, but LEGALLY, it only applies when it's a real person under "legal age" (between 16 and 18 in USA/Japan). Fictional characters don't count, at least in the US (which is still currently protected by the supreme court's rulings). So, I guess it just depends how far you want to go with the definition and label.

Pedophilia is sexual attraction to PREPUBESCENT children, not people of minority legal age.

The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (F65.4) defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age."

This varies from child to child, but usually puberty occures from around the age of 11-14.

So no, being attracted to a 15-18 year old is NOT pedophilia in any psychological, clinical, or legal sense of the word. (Even if it is illegal, depending on which country you live in)

I just want to point that out because the term is horribly abused in the sensationalist media.






Also, the DSM has the following other conditions:
* A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger);
* B. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty;
* C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
So if you just get turned on by lolicon a few times, it doesn't automatically make you a pedophile.

[Vexx]

Thanks, einhorn303 .... I get *really* tired of having to point that out. It is not like it is terribly hard to get the correct information but I know where the misinformation tends to come from. Often it is the very officials who should know better but want to grandstand and then carried forth by the "righteous mob of cluelessness". Eventually even well-meaning reasonable people are misled or confused.

[KitsuneNineTails]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

Pedophilia is sexual attraction to PREPUBESCENT children, not people of minority legal age.

...

Thank you for the clarification. I was thinking more of terms of "statutory rape" I think, which is different of course. I guess using puberty as a rule of thumb for the definition is more consistent.

Also thanks to Mushi for the correction. I thought I had seen 16, but I guess it varies in between prefectures from 13 to 18, like it varies from state to state here. Some states (I think most) are 18, but some are 17 (Colorado, eg.) and some are 16.

I find it interesting that any prefectural law can override national law, which is opposite of the US, where federal law is the last word. Is this an isolated instance? Or is it a general rule that the national laws can be overridden at a prefecture level?

Also, the DSM has the following other conditions:
* A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger);
* B. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty;
* C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
So if you just get turned on by lolicon a few times, it doesn't automatically make you a pedophile.

Einhorn, do all of the above conditions have to be met, or just one? Because I can imagine that the vast majority of the small population of "A" would not fall into "B". "C" kind of sounds like the law for "statutory rape" as well. It SOUNDS like the DSM is saying all three must be met, which I cannot imagine being anything but a "statistically insignificant" percentage of anime viewers, even of those who do have a lolicon interest. And I wonder if the percentage of anime viewers that fall into this is greater or LESSER than the relevant percentage of the society as a whole... Hmmm...

Anyways, sorry for going OT.

On point, no I have not been discriminated against, although I wouldn't call myself "otaku", at least in the widely known definition. In jr. high school I was picked on for being a "computer nerd", but even in high school, being a computer nerd and in the band didn't really have that much of a stigma. Although in my high school, the star running back on the football team often played chess in the lunchroom during break. SO, it may not have been a "normal high school" experience...

Even hanging a couple posters on my wall here at work hasn't drawn any kind of strange glances or uncomfortable questions. But again, I think software developers are almost expected to have these sorts of interests...

Ciao!

[Vexx]

Actually, there are six US states that place "age of consent" under 16. (ref: http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm). 14yrs is the lowest in those states. Some have conditions and some have exeptions that exempt partners within 4 yrs of age). The majority of states place it at 16 with a few outlier states getting more extreme with 17 or 18. The interesting thing is that there's no correlation between a state's "cultural level" and the age-of-consent. Just to make it even more absurd, federal statutes on "child porn" sweepingly define anyone under 18 as a "minor" and prosecutors are aggressively expanding what such a thing might be (i.e. "save the children even when they're not children"). http://www.adultweblaw.com/laws/childporn.htm

ahem, enough wiki-spew...

Personally, I've never experienced any discrimination about anime at the workplace. I'm just careful to only expose "workplace appropriate" materials in my cube. But then, I've usually worked places where the general workforce "gets it" anyway. They're conversation starters - typically I get "oh, do you watch anime?" and I answer "I'm interested in japanese culture and yes I watch some kinds of anime."

If I'm lucky, I'll get a "oh, there's different kinds?" and we have a chat started.

Now in K-12, I was picked on for being an "egghead" or a "sci-fi nerd" but I spent my time mostly with the "other" clique (all the rest of the outliers who also happened to be the college-bound set).

[yoruichi fan]

Originally Posted by Mushi

"Normal is just a setting on your dryer." ~Patsy Clairmont

yes thank you for backing me up.

[Kaze]

Not to butt in or anything, but wasn't this a thread to discuss discrimination against "Otaku" anime fans?
And not a thread about Pedophilia?