Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by Forceflow

That and the fact that with the colony fleets, the fleets will eventually settle new planets, making it vital for the crafts to be able to function under atmospheric conditions as well.

Wonder if there will be underwater craft. Miss the VA-3M just for the sheer fact that it can function underwater.

oh haruhi, the VA-3M was wonderful....

http://www.mahq.net/MECHA/macross/vf-x2/va-3m.htm

But don't forget the konig monster!

watching that thing fly in, transform, smash up the ground, stomp about and then let loose those big boys....oh haruhi... rgasm:





P.S: i bet we can surpass D.Greyman total comments, before even the second TV episode (or even the "first") and still won't get a sub-forum, unless a forum mod likes this series.

D;

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

P.S: i bet we can surpass D.Greyman total comments, before even the second TV episode (or even the "first") and still won't get a sub-forum, unless a forum mod likes this series.

Well, first of all, sub forums are categorized in "current" series.
Until April, this series is not a current series, therefore logically it won't get a sub-forum until the first episode airs. It makes sense.
Once April hits, this series is guaranteed to get a sub-forum, trust me.
AS mods aren't THAT silly.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well, first of all, sub forums are categorized in "current" series.
Until April, this series is not a current series, therefore logically it won't get a sub-forum until the first episode airs. It makes sense.
Once April hits, this series is guaranteed to get a sub-forum, trust me.

Oh that makes sense!

since this episode is a "editors cut" i wonder how much they left out of the TV episode version then?

its gonna be fun, comparing! Extra frame here!

Oh oh oh! the Missiles are on this side!

Originally Posted by aohige

AS mods aren't THAT silly.

READ MY SIG.

trust me, if that's not considered silly then...i dunno what is.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There's a noticeable difference in the lengths of development cycles during peacetime and wartime designs. Moreover, the American military procurement system is broken enough that it's not the best example for what is and isn't realistic (for example, the V-22 has been in development since 1986!) In comparison, the development cycle for aircraft like the MiG-15 was only three years. Of course, one would imagine that it would have taken decades, if not centuries to assimilate Overtechnology, but that's poetic license for you.

True, although arguably the hottest field in military aviation right now are UAVs, where the development cycles are substantially less drawn out. Look at how fast we went from the Predator to the Reaper, and how drone aircraft have now done things like refueled in mid-air. Kudos to the Macross folks for anticipating UAVs with those unmanned Ghost fighters. And in the previous post, someone mentioned railguns in Macross, which are now on the horizon at least as a plausible military technology--although who knows when a deployable system will be around.

BTW, another question--is there an actual catapult system on the Macross carriers for the Jets in space? In other words, is that row of lights shown on the initial launches more than just guide-markers for the pilot's initial acceleration? Or is their something akin to the new electromagnetic catapults they're developing for the USN to give the fighters extra initial acceleration and velocity in space on launch.

So far, even the command relationships looked vaguely plausible, although we really didn't see any unit dynamics. I sometimes get irrationally irritated when anime series have truly ludicrous portrayals of uniformed personnel.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I find that a fascinating comment to make when the (1) SU-47 is a swept-forward design, (2) the Eurofighter is a delta design (3) the F-22 isn't the normal swept-back design

There are some limitations of he swept-forward design, but it does work for its purposes (super high atmospheric maneuverability) and they certainly have the materials strong enough for it to be feasible. In any case, I wouldn't say it's faded away when all three of the current top of the line fighters have different wing configurations

In any case the needs of our modern air forces are quite different from the Macross future world. Maneuverability seems to be extremely important (which was why the 19 had the swept-forward wings plus canards while the 22 had 3D thrust vectoring plus the composite reconfigurable wing.

(Must draw you in mwuahahaha!)

The thing is that swept forward was supposedly the 'future' of jet fighters, but the trend didn't catch on. Instead with F-22, we see the maximum potential (for now) of a swept back design, though the wing is actually not fully swept back like with the Tomcat for example. Though the F-22 really is unique since its design actually has a slight swept forwards aspect to it too.

That said, I wonder how the Eurofighter would transform if it turned into a VF model. Other than all the excellent American models, my favorite is the Eurofighter. You can say that the Eurofighter is the VF plane of our generation due to its multi-purpose, do-it-all aspect of design.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

That said, I wonder how the Eurofighter would transform if it turned into a VF model. Other than all the excellent American models, my favorite is the Eurofighter. You can say that the Eurofighter is the VF plane of our generation due to its multi-purpose, do-it-all aspect of design.

funny, i was thinking the same thing, my best guess it'll transform pretty much like the VF-22, or VF-171 stealth fighters.

Those types that have solid, delta like wing structure.

I suspect it have a more "bulky" and "sturdy" look to it, compared to the slim conventional ones.

thats due to the frame of the design being more "organic" flowing appearance.

Whether they are actually more "sturdy" at cmech-to-mech/alien hands are a different matter.

But i suspect if you got have a backup with your bayonet, might as well put in an emergency pin-point barrier "punch" alternative.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

True, although arguably the hottest field in military aviation right now are UAVs, where the development cycles are substantially less drawn out. Look at how fast we went from the Predator to the Reaper, and how drone aircraft have now done things like refueled in mid-air. Kudos to the Macross folks for anticipating UAVs with those unmanned Ghost fighters.

It's a little unfair to compare the development cycles of unmanned vehicles like UAVs and manned aircraft. There's two major differences between the two: the first being cost and complexity, the second being that nobody really cares if they crash. All told, the loss rate with Predators is much higher than any aircraft in the USAF inventory; and very little of these losses are attributed to enemy action.

Originally Posted by Aquifina

BTW, another question--is there an actual catapult system on the Macross carriers for the Jets in space? In other words, is that row of lights shown on the initial launches more than just guide-markers for the pilot's initial acceleration? Or is their something akin to the new electromagnetic catapults they're developing for the USN to give the fighters extra initial acceleration and velocity in space on launch.

It's very likely to be a system to boost the Valkyries. From SDF Macross, we can tell that they use the standard runway and catapult system that you'd see on a modern carrier. And from a logical perspective, you wouldn't really want a Valkyrie to accelerate using its engines while it sits at the launch position - thrusting at 100,000kgf+ will cause all sorts of wear and tear that it would be preferable to avoid.

Originally Posted by Aquifina

So far, even the command relationships looked vaguely plausible, although we really didn't see any unit dynamics. I sometimes get irrationally irritated when anime series have truly ludicrous portrayals of uniformed personnel.

If you haven't done so yet, check out SDF Macross. While it's still about hotshot pilots up to their usual hijinks, it still pays quite a bit of attention to the other aspects of military operations (especially command & control).

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

The thing is that swept forward was supposedly the 'future' of jet fighters, but the trend didn't catch on.

While Valkyries may look like modern-ish fighters, they work within military requirements and considerations that are nowhere near that of any modern aircraft. As a concept, there's nothing particularly wrong with forward-swept wings, and it's hardly inconceivable that they may be employed sometime in the future.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's a little unfair to compare the development cycles of unmanned vehicles like UAVs and manned aircraft. There's two major differences between the two: the first being cost and complexity, the second being that nobody really cares if they crash. All told, the loss rate with Predators is much higher than any aircraft in the USAF inventory; and very little of these losses are attributed to enemy action.


It's very likely to be a system to boost the Valkyries. From SDF Macross, we can tell that they use the standard runway and catapult system that you'd see on a modern carrier. And from a logical perspective, you wouldn't really want a Valkyrie to accelerate using its engines while it sits at the launch position - thrusting at 100,000kgf+ will cause all sorts of wear and tear that it would be preferable to avoid.


If you haven't done so yet, check out SDF Macross. While it's still about hotshot pilots up to their usual hijinks, it still pays quite a bit of attention to the other aspects of military operations (especially command & control).


While Valkyries may look like modern-ish fighters, they work within military requirements and considerations that are nowhere near that of any modern aircraft. As a concept, there's nothing particularly wrong with forward-swept wings, and it's hardly inconceivable that they may be employed sometime in the future.

true. thing about technology, is that unless there is a real pressing need for improvements, the military likes to stick to the rule:

"if it isn't broken. don't fix it"

the conventional swept wing, is reliable, and while new version such as the swept-back VF-19 types will keep coming, there must be a very large jump of improvement for it to be introduced.

too many legacy parts from obsolete Valkyries can very well be used for the VF-25, very small modifications have to be made.

however the parts need for a mixed force of swept-back will prove more problematic.

But one thing about future designs, i was always puzzled and disappointed that they have yet to put in at-leased a 180 Degree firing turret, even if its on the back ,so that it can fire backwards.

Sure the thrust-weight ratio is insane on the Valkyries, and to be frank ANYTHING would fly with that power, but in an hectic 3D weightless environment, a turret can be very useful working in tangent with current Macross Active defence systems.

heck, the first VF-1D had four head lasers that more or less a turret, although i was disappointed I've never seen it used as such.

[ChronoReverse]

Many of the VF's actually did have a laser turret. For instance Isamu fired the YF-19's laser turret backwards at Guld during one of their dogfights.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

the conventional swept wing, is reliable, and while new version such as the swept-back VF-19 types will keep coming, there must be a very large jump of improvement for it to be introduced.

It shouldn't be that much more difference than moving from one generation of military hardware to the next.

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

however the parts need for a mixed force of swept-back will prove more problematic.

It shouldn't really be an issue. Usually, when you move from one generation to the next, there's a lot of difference between the parts even if they look the same. Occasionally, military designers try to cheap out by reusing old hardware, and it often (usually?) ends up causing lots of problems. Heck, there's even cases of the same model of military vehicle using incompatible parts if they come from different factories (the Germans are infamous for doing this).

In Macross Frontier, we can tell that UN Spacy is committed to supporting two totally different fighter designs and that SMS is using yet another totally different design, so it would seem that logistical incompatibility isn't really at issue.

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

But one thing about future designs, i was always puzzled and disappointed that they have yet to put in at-leased a 180 Degree firing turret, even if its on the back ,so that it can fire backwards.

All head lasers can be fired to the rear when in either Fighter or Gerwalk mode.
To account for why it's not employed that often: it's not something you want to rely on since 1) the lasers aren't as powerful as the gunpod, and 2) it's best to keep enemies out of your 6. I would imagine that the standard doctrine would be to get out of such a vulnerable spot rather than to stay and take a few potshots.

[ChronoReverse]

Furthermore, modern VF's have an laser-reflective coating the reduces (not mitigates) the damage from laser attacks. However, it's clear the laser turret is effective enough to be retained and useful enough that the squad leader models usually sport 4 cannons as opposed to the standard single cannon.

Not sure how effective that laser-reflective coating is anyways. The Ghost X-9's primary armament is 5 laser guns and that was certainly sufficient to damage the 19 and smash up the 21.

[Atkascha]

http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/x9.shtml

It doesn't explain much about the history of the Ghost's pulse lasers, but suffice to say, it's probably not your average laser pointer at best.

[4Tran]

The X-9's beam cannons are much larger than head lasers, so they're also presumably much more powerful as well. Even if the reflective coating provided a modicum of protection for the former, it likely wouldn't do so for the latter. Then again, if a simple coating could provide much protection from the head lasers, it'd be useless as an offensive weapon, and the UN would likely phase them out altogether.

While we're on the subject of other mecha, I'd love to see either some Queadlunn-Raus or Variable Glaugs (the only thing geekier would be something like a Variable Tomahawk ) in Macross Frontier. It'd be even better if they were piloted by one of the Jenius daughters.

[ktchmeifucan]

when is going to be able the episode number 2?

[4Tran]

Macross Frontier doesn't even air until sometime in April, so we'll all have to be patient. What they showed in December was just a special preview.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's very likely to be a system to boost the Valkyries. From SDF Macross, we can tell that they use the standard runway and catapult system that you'd see on a modern carrier. And from a logical perspective, you wouldn't really want a Valkyrie to accelerate using its engines while it sits at the launch position - thrusting at 100,000kgf+ will cause all sorts of wear and tear that it would be preferable to avoid.

I remember a segment from Macross Flashback that involves the SDF, and it shows the different means of launching and storing Valkyries. There's this method used in space for instance, from which the pilot would just fly off.



They also have an elevator system which they use to bring Valkyries out of storage and onto the runaway, similar to that found in aircraft carriers today.

[SuperKnuckles]

I'm pretty sure the catapult thing wasn't there mainly because that wasn't really in vogue at the time compared to what happened since Zeta Gundam with the catapults.

I don't think it makes too much of a difference in functionality, except obviously with catapults, the pilot doesn't have to lift a finger to fly off.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It shouldn't be that much more difference than moving from one generation of military hardware to the next.

It's definitely not the hardware that is the problem. It's the structure and the problems it can cause. I kept hearing the same story in the History channel stuff about airplane structures that tried to use the swept forward design, but it wasn't economical since it required much more engineering precision than the normal types. That, and there's many reports that on average, aerodynamic tests proved that swept forward design simply is not sturdy and reliable as swept-backs. Basically, the conventional design is still useful for everything while the only true benefits the swept forward has seen is in high altitude crafts. Really, I don' t think there is much of a tactical reason for the wing design other than the sheer aesthetics. I would guess the same in a mecha show. I wouldn't pin it all to be totally realistic.

It shouldn't really be an issue. Usually, when you move from one generation to the next, there's a lot of difference between the parts even if they look the same. Occasionally, military designers try to cheap out by reusing old hardware, and it often (usually?) ends up causing lots of problems. Heck, there's even cases of the same model of military vehicle using incompatible parts if they come from different factories (the Germans are infamous for doing this).

I fail to see how that relates to swept forward planes in the real world because they mostly didn't try using materials that differed much in terms of plane hull and wing designs. If the swept forward designs really were that advantageous, it shouldn't stress the plane to the point of being impractical to use compared to conventional designs.

Maybe in the Macross world, they found new materials to work with, but beyond space and high atmosphere craft, swept forward designs don't seem to me like a next inevitable step. But more of a decided choice for specialized planes. Which is what the individual VF crafts are supposed to be. There is no doubt that the UN decided to go with both designs, though I still don't think it is really relevant to it being realistic or not.

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

funny, i was thinking the same thing, my best guess it'll transform pretty much like the VF-22, or VF-171 stealth fighters.

Those types that have solid, delta like wing structure.

I suspect it have a more "bulky" and "sturdy" look to it, compared to the slim conventional ones.

thats due to the frame of the design being more "organic" flowing appearance.

Whether they are actually more "sturdy" at cmech-to-mech/alien hands are a different matter.

But i suspect if you got have a backup with your bayonet, might as well put in an emergency pin-point barrier "punch" alternative.

Heh, it's fun imagining a fattened Eurofighter. Since the triangle wing will be so prominent, I somehow think it'll transform like Starcream with the wing jutting out like some super robot

[Forceflow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

In Macross Frontier, we can tell that UN Spacy is committed to supporting two totally different fighter designs and that SMS is using yet another totally different design, so it would seem that logistical incompatibility isn't really at issue.

2? Sorry I can only recall seeing the 171 and its ELINT variant. Which other model do you mean?

Originally Posted by 4Tran

All head lasers can be fired to the rear when in either Fighter or Gerwalk mode.
To account for why it's not employed that often: it's not something you want to rely on since 1) the lasers aren't as powerful as the gunpod, and 2) it's best to keep enemies out of your 6. I would imagine that the standard doctrine would be to get out of such a vulnerable spot rather than to stay and take a few potshots.

I think Roy summed up the usage of the head laser best in Macross Zero, using it to shoot down incoming missiles in conjunction with an eye targeter. Heck the only time i've used it in ACE 3 was when my gunpod was recharging. (not very long)

Forward swept wings suffer from instability due to its unique wing designs. If I remember correctly its even greater than that of the F-16 and that fighter requires a computer to stabilize it else it would be rendered unflyable.

Furthermore the last recorded testplane of the USAF to test the forward-swept wing design was the X-29, a modified F-16, and that was back in 1984. I believe it didn't offer enough reduction of aerodynamic drag to fully justify the concept at that point of time and was hence abandoned in favor of more conventional designs.

Any ideas on the linear cat? I'm still trying to figure it out how its all contained on the flight deck since my brain keeps telling me the VF will bounce off the hull vertically...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I remember a segment from Macross Flashback that involves the SDF, and it shows the different means of launching and storing Valkyries. There's this method used in space for instance, from which the pilot would just fly off.
<SNIP Picture>
They also have an elevator system which they use to bring Valkyries out of storage and onto the runaway, similar to that found in aircraft carriers today.

Yup. In SDF Macross, the flight operation aboard Prometheus came straight from that of real carriers. That picture is from Do You Remember Love, which is why it looks different.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

That, and there's many reports that on average, aerodynamic tests proved that swept forward design simply is not sturdy and reliable as swept-backs. Basically, the conventional design is still useful for everything while the only true benefits the swept forward has seen is in high altitude crafts. Really, I don' t think there is much of a tactical reason for the wing design other than the sheer aesthetics. I would guess the same in a mecha show.

Sturdiness and reliability issues are radically redefined when you bring in the totally different materials technology inherent with Overtechnology. The main advantage of such a design, other than aesthetics, is improved maneuverability.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

I fail to see how that relates to swept forward planes in the real world because they mostly didn't try using materials that differed much in terms of plane hull and wing designs.

That's because it doesn't. My statement was a response to "however the parts need for a mixed force of swept-back will prove more problematic"; which was an argument that logistics would be a limiting factor. It shouldn't be surprising that I didn't address materials technology when I wasn't posting about materials technology.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Maybe in the Macross world, they found new materials to work with

They did. Overtechnology includes everything from materials to propulsion to power generation to artificial gravity, and so forth. Macross technology is insanely advanced compared to our own.

Originally Posted by Forceflow

2? Sorry I can only recall seeing the 171 and its ELINT variant. Which other model do you mean?

I was referring to the new Ghost. It's a full-sized fighter, so it'll have similar logistical requirements.

Originally Posted by Forceflow

Furthermore the last recorded testplane of the USAF to test the forward-swept wing design was the X-29, a modified F-16, and that was back in 1984. I believe it didn't offer enough reduction of aerodynamic drag to fully justify the concept at that point of time and was hence abandoned in favor of more conventional designs.

Sukhoi thinks otherwise - they've been trying to shop the Su-47 out for a while now.

Originally Posted by Forceflow

Any ideas on the linear cat? I'm still trying to figure it out how its all contained on the flight deck since my brain keeps telling me the VF will bounce off the hull vertically...

Artificial gravity. To my knowledge, the surfaces of all capital vessels have an artificial gravity field, and mecha can walk on them.

[Forceflow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I was referring to the new Ghost. It's a full-sized fighter, so it'll have similar logistical requirements.

Oh right. Forgot bout the UCVs (Air seems to be redundant...).

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Sukhoi thinks otherwise - they've been trying to shop the Su-47 out for a while now.

With a utter lack of success much to my dismay. Military brains are usually much more resistant to change.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Artificial gravity. To my knowledge, the surfaces of all capital vessels have an artificial gravity field, and mecha can walk on them.

But that would cause the VF to drop right back into the hole it came out of if it was strong enough to negate the repulsive force of the cat. launcher... x.x Aw heck i'll just enjoy it for what it is... =.=;;;