Haruhi Suzumiya - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Haruhi Fans only)

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

You know, I think I finally understand your Haruhi argument, although I still disagree. See, she's no Batman.

Of course Haruhi isn't Batman. Tsuruya is.

[AmyElizzabeth]

I'll take something from it
Haruhi is pretty much a walking calender, isn't she?
I just totally did a play on words >
And yesh, Asakura shiuld have put up a struggle.
Cuz It was technically just like "Okay. I'mma disappear now "

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Of course Haruhi isn't Batman. Tsuruya is.

No, no. She's a Batnyan.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. Mikuru was wrote pretty well here. Both "regular" and "big". Her regular self wasn't terribly useful, but it was touching to see how much she genuinely cares about Kyon.

So basically... Mikuru being Mikuru?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

3. Nagato showed real emotion here. That one line where she said "I don't want to" was a significant turning point for her character, I think. Overall, I liked how Nagato was handled.

Vol7 was really good to Nagato, even if this is pretty much the only real focus she actually gets in it.

If Kyon settles down with Haruhi, he sure as hell better remember the date of the wedding anniversary...

... Can't believe I'm saying this, but... poor Kyon

Some nice bits, but due to the predictability combined with it being a bit hard to follow it times, I didn't find it as enjoyable as the stories that immediately proceeded it (chronologically within the Haruhi universe, I should say).

In Tanigawa's defense, it is just a prologue, and really wasn't meant to be read separately...

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

No, no. She's a Batnyan.

Funny.

[Triple_R]

Amy and Kogetsu - Thanks for the replies. Glad you took something from it.

[AmyElizzabeth]

Literally

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm going to be frank here; both you and Kaisos have been very critical of Haruhi's character...

It's not her negative traits... like I said earlier... without her tsundere qualities (read: relationship with Kyon) she's an incredibly boring and overplayed character type. Hell, she'd just be Tomo Takino, but on less speed.

Thanks to her crush, she's a Tsundere Genki Girl. How many of those do you see around?


Edit: And before you try to defend her as being more than just a label, keep in mind that she IS incredibly well-written. Just, she'd be boring if she was the protagonist, is all I'm saying.

[Bionicman]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's not her negative traits... like I said earlier... without her tsundere qualities (read: relationship with Kyon) she's an incredibly boring and overplayed character type. Hell, she'd just be Tomo Takino, but on less speed.

I'm not the only one who thinks that Yotsuba Koiwai (from the same author as Azumanga) is pretty darn close to what Haruhi would have been at five years old.

[Jintor]

Nope.

Oh god I feel an epileptic tree coming on...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Bionicman

I'm not the only one who thinks that Yotsuba Koiwai (from the same author as Azumanga) is pretty darn close to what Haruhi would have been at five years old.

DON MAI

Originally Posted by Jintor

Nope.

Oh god I feel an epileptic tree coming on...

Oh no. Those always end badly.

So Yotsuba has the power to control the threads of reality? Explains a lot...

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. Mikuru was wrote pretty well here. Both "regular" and "big". Her regular self wasn't terribly useful, but it was touching to see how much she genuinely cares about Kyon.

Wow, I've totally forgot that. Yeah, you aare right, Mikuru(small) certnally cares for Kyon.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

3. Nagato showed real emotion here. That one line where she said "I don't want to" was a significant turning point for her character, I think. Overall, I liked how Nagato was handled.

Another reason for people complaning there is too much focus on Nagato, even tough this is pretty much the only relevant scene for her on this novel. (well, there is a couple of lines, spoken by Mikuru latter)


For the main character discussion, I understand, and even agree,with Jintor when he says there is (usually) only one main character. This person would be, without doubts, Kyon.

This don't mean, however, Haruhi is a secundary character. I believe she could be called "female lead", she is more important then any other character (save for Kyon). Sure, what is important on her is her powers, however, said powers are part of her character, their importance is a reflex of Haruhi's importance.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's not her negative traits... like I said earlier... without her tsundere qualities (read: relationship with Kyon) she's an incredibly boring and overplayed character type. Hell, she'd just be Tomo Takino, but on less speed.

Thanks to her crush, she's a Tsundere Genki Girl. How many of those do you see around?


Edit: And before you try to defend her as being more than just a label, keep in mind that she IS incredibly well-written. Just, she'd be boring if she was the protagonist, is all I'm saying.

Ok... now at least I understand where you're coming from on Haruhi, and on Kyon/Haruhi.

I've always liked the Genki Girl character type - Tomo Takino is probably my favorite character in Azumanga; certainly one of my four favorite characters (and the perverted male teacher is one of the other three, so of the main cast, Tomo is at least top three for me). Ironically, perhaps, I like the Genki Girl character in part because I didn't see a true Genki Girl until after being drowned in tsunderes, lolis, and yamato nadeshikos. So, by the time I saw a Genki Girl, it was like a breath of fresh air to me.

I honestly don't recall seeing a lot of Genki Girl's in anime. Maybe they simply tend to be in animes that I otherwise wouldn't like, and hence haven't watched all of.

From what I can gather, you're not big on Genki Girl's in general, and with out the KyonHaruhi relationship, you think that Haruhi would be a pure Genki Girl.

Hhmmm... it's hard to say. With out Kyon, Haruhi might actually be a very melancholic girl. No Kyon might mean no SOS Brigade might mean a Haruhi with out any close friends at all...

But, like I said, at least I see where you're coming from now.


As you know, I hold Haruhi to be a very complex character that defies labeling, but in fairness to you... her Genki Girl aspects are her loudest aspects, imo; they're the aspects that come across the most vividly.

Originally Posted by Heatth

Another reason for people complaning there is too much focus on Nagato, even tough this is pretty much the only relevant scene for her on this novel. (well, there is a couple of lines, spoken by Mikuru latter)

I don't know if there's too much focus on Nagato, per se, as much as it's a case of Tanigawa keep coming back to that same date/scene over and over again, hence making the scene itself almost take on a mythical character. And Nagato is at the center of the scene, so...

[ijuinkun]

I thought I'd do a bit of speculation into the nature of Data Entities. (wall of text follows)

Now, for chemical-based life such as ourselves, the two primary resources for survival are physical space (to live in and to absorb our waste) and an energy supply. Thus, the actions of chemical organisms are based around getting enough of these things to stay alive.

For data-based life, which are essentially processes running within some processing-capable medium (anything capable of shuffling bits around in an orderly manner--even a nebula could do this, though at a low speed and density), the resources are memory space (to store themselves and their input/output) and processing capacity (to run themselves).

It can be assumed that natural selection would then pressure data life forms to compete for these resources, resulting in those processes best able to steal memory and processing time from others coming to dominate. Thus, an observer would see small, individually weak processes filling out every tiny nook and cranny of unoccupied memory (akin to bacteria or plants), while the predatory programs would "eat" them to steal their resources for themselves. This would lead to typical predator/prey arms races where the prey develop more effective defenses and then the predators develop more effective assaults. Eventually the predators would become smart enough that they would achieve some level of intelligence (I say the predators would develop intelligence first, because breaking data defenses nearly always takes orders of magnitude more processing than creating the defenses--for example, finding the key to break an encrypted file always takes much much more processing than was spent to generate it to begin with).

So then we are left with an anarchy of newly intelligent processes that got to be that way by ruthlessly destroying other processes--much like how humans became dominant on Earth in part by learning to kill anything that would threaten to kill us. In short, they are in the Hobbesean state of nature, wherein life is "nasty, brutish, and short". Their solution to this constant adversity, then, would be to create some form of society--i.e. rules describing how resources should be apportioned and how they may be transferred from one owner to another, along with arbitration for dealing with rogue programs (such as Asakura after she tried to kill Kyon).

However, I see at least two things that make the nature of life as data processes different from life as chemical processes.

First is that data processes can be saved and suspended, to be restarted at a future time. In other words, death is not only fully reversible assuming that one's corpse is completely intact, but it is also without any negative effects other than the dead entity's loss of time while inactive. This has a number of repercussions. It lets processes hibernate almost indefinitely, consuming only storage space and no processing other than that needed to make sure that nobody erases/overwrites them in their sleep. As a result, temporary processing starvation would not result in complete demise as food starvation would in biological animals. This means also that deactivating non-critical processes would be a valid and even common method of dealing with processing shortages. Imagine, if you will, a naval ship where the standard practice is that all off-duty personnel be put in temporary suspended animation solely for the purpose of reducing their need for food and space, and you will see how "alien" the notion of easily-reversible death is to us. This, perhaps, is why Asakura was completely unable to comprehend why Kyon should fear dying--to her, a dead being can simply be resurrected by anybody of her own power level who had the inclination to do so. Likely as not, Asakura believed that if Haruhi wanted Kyon back, she would bring him back to life (and thus possibly become aware of her own power in doing so).

The second radical difference between data life and chemical life is the ease with which data can be copied. To realize the consequences of this, let us say that a data entity (let's use Asakura again) tells a lie. Assuming that the party wishing to expose her lie (and find the truth) has the ability to overcome Asakura's own defenses, then it becomes a trivial matter to copy the relevant part of her memory and examine it. Thus, unless Asakura forgets (deletes) her own memory of the truth, thus in effect coming to believe her own deception as truth, her deception can easily be exposed. This ease of copying thus means that there can be no secrets kept from anybody who has the authority to "read your mind".

Also related to this ease of copying would be equal ease of reproduction. Rather than being an energy-intensive process that takes up about one percent of a lifetime (as with human pregnancy), programs could reproduce themselves much more easily. Furthermore, with their "genetic" code exposed to view, it is easy for programs to create offspring using attributes from any number of parents, and to tweak the offspring's initial parameters however they wish. This would be like being able to have total control over the genome of your child, putting the A, T, C, and G wherever you want. Beyond this, however, is the social implication of this form of reproduction--programs have no need to form lifetime bonds with a single mate, which would mean that they would have no evolutionary need for what we call romantic love as a separate concept from friendship.

Thoughts?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

Thoughts?

Unfortunately, your ideas, though complex, skipped the most important aspect of the Data Entities; they are 4D creatures.

All your assumptions assume the Data entities as creatures trapped in time, that they are stuck on the time stream like the rest of us. But this is clearly not the case.

The limitations you impose on the Data entities, thus, makes no sense from their perspective; past and future are the same thing to them. If you did not put this into account, nothing else would matter.

They have such trouble understanding 3D, they had to send a probe in the shape of Yuki Nagato. They themselves would certainly have trouble understanding anything you described, which does not really exist for them.

[amyjo]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking for awhile and finally decided to write to get some opinions on a question I have...

I've read in other posts about the time period that people believe all the books will cover, and the general consensus (if there is one) seems to be that the books will probably cover the 3 years that Kyon is in high school. Any agreements or disagreements with that statement?

Well, for awhile that assumption has not felt right to me, because I remember reading something in one of the books that made me think that all of the events from the books should have taken place during one year. I did a search translations and found it...
From Live A Live (emphasis added by me):

This happened in my first year in high school.

The year when the humanoid climatic anomaly known as Suzumiya Haruhi began her rampage, and also the most eventful year in my life. A year that gives me enough to fret about just by thinking back on all the troublesome events. When looking through my memory photo album, I found all sorts of jaw dropping things that had happened. One of these little events still makes a deep impression in the back of my mind, so allow me to share it with everyone.

What do people think? Does the above quote make it sound like all (or at least the most significant SOS Brigade events) happened during Kyon's first year of high school?

[Tyabann]

He's looking back at the past 6-7 months in that monologue.

You haven't read Vol. 8 or 9, have you?

[Heatth]

Nice point. This might mean the series will end in the middle of the second year. (as this year has already begum). I would like to point this don't mean mean the book will end at Vol.10. There still has much to be explained.

By the way, this could also mean the author has just changed his mind. Remember this was before Vol.7 and the introduction of the rival factions. Before that, it wouldn't be hard fit all plot points over a single year. Now, with Sasaki and her "friends", things are more complex. This was also before the anime right? The newfound huge popularity may have motived the author to continue.

You could even argue the Endless Eight make the ear more event full thenthe rest of his life.

[amyjo]

Kaisos,

Yes, I've read volumes 8 and 9. I guess I just had the feeling that Kyon was narrating all of these stories as an adult--at some point in the future, not as the events were happening, or even as a high school student.

Did anyone else get that feeling, or am I the only one? :-)

[Heatth]

Not only you for sure. Anyway, I posted my opinion already. I really think it is more probable the author just changed his mind.

[amyjo]

Heatth,

Thanks for the comments. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

If the author did originally intend all of these stories to fit within a year and did change his mind, there are a lot of ways to make the quote above consistent with making the time-frame of the stories longer. Perhaps the most shocking things happened during that first year that they all met? Who knows. I have hope that we'll see the real end of the story at some point--hopefully without too many (more) years of waiting!