The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[LusterFlare]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Still that does not change the fact: his action is out of selfish and super risky. He only escaped that mess thank to Itsuki (and maybe later self-revision). What set me off is how people still feel it's better if Kyon can punch Haruhi that moment, and think that would teach her more or some sort.

Haruhi can escape anything by herself(unconciously), while Kyon can't. That's why he should watch out his own action

Once again i will say: Kyon knows about the situation much better than many of us here. He knows Itsuki may not be there to aid him out the next time (just like how he thought he won't be around to stop Haruhi). The next time he get into that situation he will have to restrain himself against Haruhi, just like how Haruhi will have to learn restraining herself when dealing with people.

Hm? I felt that the destruction of the world never crossed Kyon's mind when he finally popped. It seems like he was dealing with an immature kid and just acted on his rage. He never considered the consequences of what might have happened if he really smashed Haruhi's face in. It is NOT fact that his actions are selfish, it is merely subjective depending on what Kyon was thinking. It is most logical that he never even thought about the results (for me at least) because he himself didn't even realize he raised his fist; he was simply blinded by indignation.

If Kyon had thought about how his actions would be world-altering, you can slap on the label "selfish" justifiably. Though I strongly doubt this is the case.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by LusterFlare

Hm? I felt that the destruction of the world never crossed Kyon's mind when he finally popped. It seems like he was dealing with an immature kid and just acted on his rage. He never considered the consequences of what might have happened if he really smashed Haruhi's face in. It is NOT fact that his actions are selfish, it is merely subjective depending on what Kyon was thinking. It is most logical that he never even thought about the results (for me at least) because he himself didn't even realize he raised his fist; he was simply blinded by indignation.

If Kyon had thought about how his actions would be world-altering, you can slap on the label "selfish" justifiably. Though I strongly doubt this is the case.

His act was for his self-interest but it can cost the others’ well-being. Can we say that's an selfish act?

If we can agree up to there, then please tell me if you think a person who consciously perform selfish act can be considered as selfish or not. You may argue he unconsciously rose his fist, but if he ever slam his hand down, will it still be unconscious?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

[crack]Because she's jealous that Kyon and Mikuru tend to pay attention to each other rather than herself. Yes, I fully meant the italicized addition. We all know that Haruhi's equal-opportunity where that is concerned, IYKWIM.[/crack]

So... Haruhi's the bi-sexual Tatewaki Kuno... "I will have them both!!!"

IYKWIM... that's a new one for me. I hate coming across as dense yet again, but... what does that acronym mean.

To be more precise, it means Brigade Leader. Notice the congruence between SOS-dan and Danchou?

I see. Thanks for pointing that out. Japanese honorifics is something I haven't really bothered to learn much about. But since they're used heavily here on Anime Suki, it's nice to know.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Haruhi doesn't make things happen not because she can't, but because she doesn't want to.

In short, she's not willing to brainwash the entire SOS Brigade. Not having some resistance is boring.

This is all subconscious, of course.

... If Haruhi was able to subconsciously mind control others, why did the CCP not hand a computer over voluntarily, as she wished? You can't tell me that she particularly cares about the CCP.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of a free will limitation on Haruhi's powers. Such a limitation adds drama and suspense, imo.

Originally Posted by Bri

"She's exceptionally assertive, quite courageous, very theatrical..." aka puberty. Obessive behaviour about interests is nothing uncommon. Heck we're even on a board with mostly obessed fans. The personality is really not that strange.

Like I said to Jintor - it's not the fact that she's obsessed, it's what she's obsessed about. Her interests are quite unique.

Most of the more outrageous actions of Haruhi are only possible due to the powers she has.

Haruhi doesn't need any special powers in order to have the interests she has, or the activities that she engages in. You don't need any special powers to dress yourself and a friend up in fetish clothes, and then go walking around school in bunny outfits straight from the Playboy Mansion while passing out club promotions. How many 15 year old girls would go walking around school grounds dressed like that, and for this reason?

Even within fiction, this is unique.

The strength of the anime is that it uses very common yet somewhat exaggerated character archetypes in a new refreshing way.

Which character archetype is Haruhi?

Tsundere?

Genki Girl?

One of the ones that I mentioned in this post?

No, Haruhi is not an archetype. She may have different archetypes as elements of her character, but she's far more than either of them alone.


And Koizumi and Kyon don't strike me as archetype characters either, honestly.

Yuki... Might be an archetype.

Mikuru... Yes, she is an archetype.

Haruhi is not really unique can be called a trickster according to the archetype classification of Jung. Similar characters are for example Ferris Bueller and Star treks Q.

I strongly disagree. Haruhi is unique. She's far more than just a trickster, just like she's far more than just a genki girl or a tsundere.

This longing to label Haruhi or reduce her to boring normalcy... boggles my mind.

Do you know what made this character (and hence this franchise and anime) popular to begin with?

It was how different and unusual both this franchise and its titular character are. Episode00 etched that into stone, and took the anime world by storm because of it. Back in 2006 and 2007, this is what people hyped over and fascinated about and joked about: Just how refreshingly different and unusual Haruhi was and is. This is what got me into this anime fandom.


Read some blogs; Haruhi's eccentricity is precisely what people look for in this anime, and take enjoyment from. It's her antics and hijinks. If those were normal, why would people even care?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

His act was for his self-interest but it can cost the others’ well-being. Can we say that's an selfish act?

If we can agree up to there, then please tell me if you think a person who consciously perform selfish act can be considered as selfish or not. You may argue he unconsciously rose his fist, but if he ever slam his hand down, will it still be unconscious?

Self interest? Kyon wanted to punch Haruhi because she is abusing MIKURU. Kyon was trying to act on Mikuru's behalf because she would jump into a pool full of sharks if Haruhi told her to.

There was no self-interest in that punch. If Kyon wants self-interest, he would just LEAVE. But he can't, not leaving Mikuru like this.

Your attempt at trying to make Kyon look selfish is ridiculous. Haruhi is the selfish one, and as such she was going to get punished for it. Sure, a punch is excessive, but explainable under the circumstances.

Kyon, in this episode, took the lead. For the first time, he made a decision that the rest of the team is either uninterested in or unwilling to make. Haruhi will NOT get her own way without resistance.

You know why Haruhi assumed everyone will do what she say? Because they always did. But not any more.

Gods don't get a free pass on morals; they get judged more strictly.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

If we can agree up to there, then please tell me if you think a person who consciously perform selfish act can be considered as selfish or not. You may argue he unconsciously rose his fist, but if he ever slam his hand down, will it still be unconscious?

The message you quoted said very clearly : "because he himself didn't even realize he raised his fist", and yet you argue about "consciously performing a selfish act".
You seriously either have severe reading comprehension problems, either make a habit to only reading half of what you answer to...

Additionnally, it's not "in one's own self-interest" to punish someone. You don't really gain anything by it. It's more a point of principle.

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

His act was for his self-interest but it can cost the others’ well-being. Can we say that's an selfish act?

If we can agree up to there, then please tell me if you think a person who consciously perform selfish act can be considered as selfish or not. You may argue he unconsciously rose his fist, but if he ever slam his hand down, will it still be unconscious?

He's not being selfish. If Haruhi is allowed to do as she likes with no consequences because of her powers, it's going to hurt her as a person in the long wrong. Obviously, punching her would have been wrong (if he felt physical action was necessary, a slap would have sufficed), but doing nothing would have been even more wrong.

Originally Posted by Bri

"She's exceptionally assertive, quite courageous, very theatrical..." aka puberty. Obessive behaviour about interests is nothing uncommon. Heck we're even on a board with mostly obessed fans. The personality is really not that strange.

Most of the more outrageous actions of Haruhi are only possible due to the powers she has. The strength of the anime is that it uses very common yet somewhat exagerated character archetypes in a new refreshing way. Haruhi is not really unique can be called a trickster according to the archetype classification of Jung. Similar characters are for example Ferris Bueller and Star treks Q.

I don't think this is necessarily the case. Consider how she acquired the Brigade-room's computer. That was all her, for good or ill. Haruhi is an attractive, intelligent, assertive, and occasionally unscrupulous girl living in a culture that encourages passivity and conflict avoidance. So it isn't surprising that she's able to get her way.

And on a side note, I don't really think Haruhi fits the archetype of a trickster at all. Because unlike Ferris Bueller or Q or Loki, Haruhi is always completely upfront about what she's after, and she gets what she wants by taking it, not by trickery. The only times when she is deceptive is when she's also deceiving herself (as when she tells Kyon that she has no interest in love). If Haruhi fits an archetype, it isn't that of a Hermes, but of Ares---she's not a god of tricks but a god of war.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So... Haruhi's the bi-sexual Tatewaki Kuno... "I will have them both!!!"

IYKWIM... that's a new one for me. I hate coming across as dense yet again, but... what does that acronym mean.

If You Know What I Mean. It's used to refer to certain suggestive situations....if you know what I mean.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

I don't think this is necessarily the case. Consider how she acquired the Brigade-room's computer. That was all her, for good or ill. Haruhi is an attractive, intelligent, assertive, and occasionally unscrupulous girl living in a culture that encourages passivity and conflict avoidance. So it isn't surprising that she's able to get her way.

And on a side note, I don't really think Haruhi fits the archetype of a trickster at all. Because unlike Ferris Bueller or Q or Loki, Haruhi is always completely upfront about what she's after, and she gets what she wants by taking it, not by trickery. The only times when she is deceptive is when she's also deceiving herself (as when she tells Kyon that she has no interest in love). If Haruhi fits an archetype, it isn't that of a Hermes, but of Ares---she's not a god of tricks but a god of war.

That's a very interesting way of looking at Haruhi, mokuseimaru, and I definitely see where you're coming from here.

For me, Haruhi has the upfront-ness of a god of war but the tricky maneuvers of a god of tricks. Simply put... she cheats. Of course, you could just consider that good tactics.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

If You Know What I Mean. It's used to refer to certain suggestive situations....if you know what I mean.

Thanks for that. IYNWIM... I'll have to try to remember that. It really saves you a lot of typing!

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Haruhi doesn't need any special powers in order to have the interests she has, or the activities that she engages in. You don't need any special powers to dress yourself and a friend up in fetish clothes, and then go walking around school in bunny outfits straight from the Playboy Mansion while passing out club promotions. How many 15 year old girls would go walking around school grounds dressed like that, and for this reason?

Even within fiction, this is unique.

Plotwise Haruhi needs those powers to escape consequences. A real girl would have to deal with the reaction to dressing that provocatively. Doesn't mean that walking around in provocative clothes in public places is not an uncommon erotic theme. Some things are just best left to fantasy.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Haruhi doesn't need any
Which character archetype is Haruhi? [...]

The limits of fiction make it that virtually every character can be described by an archetype. It's just a way of describing the key traits of a personality. Don't confuse archetype with sterotypes, which the show avoids.

I strongly disagree. Haruhi is unique. She's far more than just a trickster, just like she's far more than just a genki girl or a tsundere.

This longing to label Haruhi or reduce her to boring normalcy... boggles my mind.

Do you know what made this character (and hence this franchise and anime) popular to begin with?

It was how different and unusual both this franchise and its titular character are. Episode00 etched that into stone, and took the anime world by storm because of it. Back in 2006 and 2007, this is what people hyped over and fascinated about and joked about: Just how refreshingly different and unusual Haruhi was and is. This is what got me into this anime fandom.

Read some blogs; Haruhi's eccentricity is precisely what people look for in this anime, and take enjoyment from. It's her antics and hijinks. If those were normal, why would people even care?

Haruhi tries to be unique and find her own place in the world, it's that struggle which is a universal human theme. That makes the character recognisable and sympathetic to anime audiences while her methods sometimes are not. Also people love to see a daredevil that gets away with anything.

TMHS is a fantastic and fun anime as it is a combination of quality animation, great characters and very well written sci-fi stories but it is hardly unique or different. The core plot device of haruhi being unaware of reality(unbelievable as this reality may be) is powerfull but not new. See for example "La vita e' bella" for a similar concept.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

I don't think this is necessarily the case. Consider how she acquired the Brigade-room's computer. That was all her, for good or ill. Haruhi is an attractive, intelligent, assertive, and occasionally unscrupulous girl living in a culture that encourages passivity and conflict avoidance. So it isn't surprising that she's able to get her way.

And on a side note, I don't really think Haruhi fits the archetype of a trickster at all. Because unlike Ferris Bueller or Q or Loki, Haruhi is always completely upfront about what she's after, and she gets what she wants by taking it, not by trickery. The only times when she is deceptive is when she's also deceiving herself (as when she tells Kyon that she has no interest in love). If Haruhi fits an archetype, it isn't that of a Hermes, but of Ares---she's not a god of tricks but a god of war.

Deception is only one of the traits of Jung's trickster (what's in a name), as you can see the other elements are pretty close on the mark.

Fondness for sly jokes and malicious pranks
Unpredictable behavior
Not really evil, but does the most atrocious things
Can be a destroyer and a creator
Impulsive, selfish, grotesque character.
Duality of character – half animal, half divin or human
Does not recognize the rules of society
Appetites dominate behavior
Cruel, cynical and unfeeling.
Collective shadow – dark part of people’s psyche

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Bri

Plotwise Haruhi needs those powers to escape consequences. A real girl would have to deal with the reaction to dressing that provocatively.

... Haruhi does deal with the reaction to dressing that provocatively. The only people who know about Haruhi's powers are the rest of the Brigade (and the the organizations/Data Entity lying in the shadows behind three of them). All of Haruhi's other fellow students don't know about those powers, so their reactions aren't affected by them.

Doesn't mean that walking around in provocative clothes in public places is not an uncommon erotic theme.

Precisely my point. A normal girl wouldn't be interested in such activities.

The limits of fiction make it that virtually every character can be described by an archetype.

I strongly disagree. Most characters can not be comprehensively and effectively defined by an archetype.

And, in Haruhi's case, there's no one archetype that fully captures her, or even comes remotely close to fully capturing her.

Haruhi tries to be unique...

And succeeds. In flying colors.

and find her own place in the world, it's that struggle which is a universal human theme.

This I'll give you.

That makes the character recognisable and sympathetic to anime audiences while her methods sometimes are not. Also people love to see a daredevil that gets away with anything.

TMHS is a fantastic and fun anime as it is a combination of quality animation, great characters and very well written sci-fi stories but it is hardly unique or different.

I strongly disagree. TMHS is unique and different.

The core plot device of haruhi being unaware of reality(unbelievable as this reality may be) is powerfull but not new. See for example "La vita e' bella" for a similar concept.

The core plot device is far more complex than that. Plus... comparing an anime to a live-action Italian film?

Good grief... the differences in background culture and entertainment medium alone are enough to make Haruhi distinct from that, even before I watch a second of the Italian film (I've never seen it before, but an IMDb search tells me all I need to know there).

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I more or less felt the same about this episode as I did about Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, so it gets the same rating BLR did from me.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Precisely my point. A normal girl wouldn't be interested in such activities.

You'd be surprised...As an example, in my old high school there is a tradition that the graduate classes pull an end of year prank before leaving. In my year the prank consisted of one of the girls going up in lingerie to the principal. She stripped in front of the shocked man and gave him a lapdance during the send off ceremony in front of 1100 students. Reality is often more crazy then fiction (ah the memories)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I strongly disagree. Most characters can not be comprehensively and effectively defined by an archetype.

And, in Haruhi's case, there's no one archetype that fully captures her, or even comes remotely close to fully capturing her.

I just did in the previous post. Again stereotype and archetype are not the same thing. It's an outline not a full description.

I strongly disagree. TMHS is unique and different.

Go back 2 decades and take a look at the Urusei Yatsura movies. I'm sure the people at Kyoto animation have.

Good grief... the differences in background culture and entertainment medium alone are enough to make Haruhi distinct from that, even before I watch a second of the Italian film (I've never seen it before, but an IMDb search tells me all I need to know there).

On an abstract level both plot devices are virtually identical except that the world has to be protected from Haruhi, while the boy in La vita has to be protected from the world. It's just an illustration that the concept of a character that needs to kept oblivious from the reality, be it for different reasons, is a known one.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Bri

You'd be surprised...As an example, in my old high school there is a tradition that the graduate classes pull an end of year prank before leaving. In my year the prank consisted of one of the girls going up in lingerie to the principal. She stripped in front of the shocked man and gave him a lapdance during the send off ceremony in front of 1100 students. Reality is often more crazy then fiction (ah the memories)

I hope she was pretty at least !

But the point is, it was a prank and a one-time thing. I doubt that this kind of prank was her run-of-the-mill day-to-day routine ^^
(if it was, please send me her number)

[chikorita157]

Well, I finally wrote and also listed all the despicable acts Haruhi have done in this episode which pretty much made we want to punch Haruhi's lights out for hitting Mikuru on the head, although toned down in the episode, it's alot worse in the light novel and more violent.

Full Episode 13 Reactions and Thoughts

[Lummie]

I gave the episode a 9/10, merely because he almost punished her. If he'd done it, he'd get a 10/10 from me. Haruhi's personality really got on my nerves because of her abuse of Mikuru and because she can't accept other fellow opinions. Not listening to someone's advice because you think your own action are always right is just = FAIL

[DJ Trouble]

It's too bad this week will probably be the last new episode for awhile.

[StRyKeR]

Did everyone miss the scene where Kyon walks into the club room and Haruhi is seen doing her hair in a ponytail, wondering whether it'll make Kyon like her again?

This episode chronologically happens after the closed-space incident from the last episode of Season 1, so Haruhi knows that Kyon likes ponytails.

By far the best episode of the season, just for this cute scene.

[Garet Jax]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

He's not being selfish. If Haruhi is allowed to do as she likes with no consequences because of her powers, it's going to hurt her as a person in the long wrong.

That's what I wonder about most, especially after this episode. It's kind of hard to plan for someone like Haruhi but they almost certainly need to try, since it's unlikely they'll want to be lifelong Brigade members, constantly appeasing her whims in order to stave off disaster. Can you safely educate a deity/avatar?

On the other hand, the way things are probably makes for more interesting material.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

"Handling things as they happen" is a plan that seems to be working for them. Sure, it could be better, but it's still working.