Toradora! - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Master Chibi]

Huh are you talking about yourself? Since I feel those words can be easily directed to you as well.

See?

Case in point.

lol

Forced is the overreaction towards the problem which also comes out of the blue. There is no gradual creation of the scene just sudden throw emo into us which makes such scene look artificial and forced (yes crying and other things are just as artificial because the tension that generated them looks forced) which makes Kitamura's character just as shallow as it was before.

Now you want things to be explained to you from the get go?

That's no fun at all.

It sounds more like you don't care for Kitamura's character, so you're quick to disregard how they go about it in explaining it (edit- looking back at the replies prior to this, looks like I'm right). Your point would be valid if his entire ordeal was wrapped up this episode, but it's not. The fact that they're devoting more then one episode (maybe up three) is proof that it's not being shallow / forced / artificial. Again, you can dislike him, but to hold that as con against how the show develops him is going offsides.

Again, you people keep sitting at the end of the situation and argue about what the character is doing there, when this show is (and always was) primarily dealt with showing us how they got there. This time they're going backwards, giving us the reaction (end of the situation, which ironically is actually the begining now), and now where' going to find out what lead him to act that way (which then leads to the actual end of this situation). I don't see anything wrong with that.

:P

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

He is an easy character to hate. Look at popularity polls be it here or in Japan... While it doenst tell he is hated, it tells he is not liked. His character is really struggling and the overused cliche of sudden emo being presented as if the character depth that was used in numerous animes really numerous times, doesn't make him any better.

I don't see how "sudden emo" is a cliche.

Nor do I see how popularity polls could be affected by something that, you know, just happened.

And I can't understand the rest of your post...

[Darknemo2000]

So you are saying you are a frustrating guy to talk to? Good we actually agree on something. :P

I mean the whole situation and the tension is made over it is artificial... How many times do I have to repeat it? It is overreaction, even considering him being a teenager.

And the motives behind that is not impressive at all. Thats why this episode doesn't really create deeper character. More info not equals character depth, specially if the whole tension that caused it is artificial and forced. My verdict may be strongly influenced because I do know what happens next as I do read novels.

I don't see how "sudden emo" is a cliche.

How about reading Sadamoto? His stuff reaches us since 1992 already so he really started this. Or any other stuff that tries to be artificially deep but have no time to make it natural. It is a really old cliche, but I guess if you do not watch the shows then it must be a new world for you. Like when you see a first harem you think "Wow, how original."

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

So you are saying you are a frustrating guy to talk to? Good we actually agree on something. :P

I mean the whole situation and the tension is made over it is artificial... How many times do I have to repeat it? It is overreaction, even considering him being a teenager.

And the motives behind that is not impressive at all. Thats why this episode doesn't really create deeper character. More info not equals character depth, specially if the whole tension that caused it is artificial and forced. My verdict may be strongly influenced because I do know what happens next as I do read novels.

You've done absolutely nothing to state why it is what you're saying it is, you're just stating it period as if it was fact, and it's not.

I did the same, but I offered the notion that showing a different side to a character who we haven't actually touched upon at all up to this point is in fact, irrefutable depth.

Even if you want to argue against that (use more of those magical opposite stickers of yours), the problem itself is what may actually be deep, but then I don't know that right now.

All I'm getting here is that:

- You don't like Kitamura (you hate him), and that greatly influences (wrongly may I add) how your opinion of how the show decides to portray his developtment.

- You've read the novels. Hey, guess what? NOONE CARES. This is the thread for the anime.

- You think it's forced, artificial, contrived, and him not being popular amongst fans of Toradora somehow has something to do with it.

:P

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

I mean the whole situation and the tension is made over it is artificial... How many times do I have to repeat it? It is overreaction, even considering him being a teenager.

See, this is your opinion. It isn't a fact, it's subjective.

And him being a teenager is what makes him overreact like that. Kids aren't exactly the most wise of individuals.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

How about reading Sadamoto? His stuff reaches us since 1992 already so he really tarted this. Or any other stuff that tries to be artificially deep but have no time to make it natural. It is a really old cliche, but I guess if you do not watch the shows then it must be a new world for you. Like when you see a first harem you think "Wow, how original."

Okay, see, I have no idea who that is.

And that really isn't a cliche. That's simply bad writing, you're talking about. And this really isn't. It's indirect characterization.

[Caster13]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Forced is the overreaction towards the problem which also comes out of the blue. There is no gradual creation of the scene just sudden throw emo into us which makes such scene look artificial and forced (yes crying and other things are just as artificial because the tension that generated them looks forced) which makes Kitamura's character just as shallow as it was before.

Calling it an overreaction rather defeats the purpose of something being out of the blue. He is, after all, reacting to something. Perhaps he's reacting too drastically, but he's still reacting to something that evokes a change in his behaviour.

I wouldn't say it's entirely sudden either. There have been quite a few hints coming up to this that goes as far back as the summer villa episode. Ami teases out hints of some possible problem between Kitamura and the student council when she tells him that he's surprised Kitamura came along.

At the end of the cultural festival, there's some tension between Kitamura and Sumire as she talks about how she's going to be gone next year. Then in the previous episode, we know that Kitamura and Sumire have a serious discussion that leaves him a dazed stupor when Taiga finds him.

I think you might also be mistaking time (which is restricted in a television show) with actual changes in a person's behaviour.

Consider, for example, the five stages of loss and grief: denial/isolation, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. This is a list of behaviours in stages, not a time line.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

You've done absolutely nothing to state why it is what you're saying it is, you're just stating it period as if it was fact, and it's not.

I did the same, but I offered the notion that showing a different side to a character who we haven't actually touched upon at all up to this point is in fact, irrefutable depth.

While I offer a notion that more info does not equals upon creating a character depth. We are still on the same wheel and doesn't make your opinion better as we both provide our opinions and both provide completely different notions that follow.

You just think you are right, I think I am.

It may be deep or it may be not. Your defending and my defending stands on the same ground of may which amkes yours statement just as invallid as mine or mine, just as invalid as yours . We are just stating our opinions neither giving any support on that but the notions taht are already different.

You keep on using those magical oppose stickers just as much as I do, its just taht you are too full of yourself to admit it, as those stickers are always the statements.

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

- You don't like Kitamura (you hate him), and that greatly influences (wrongly may I add) how your opinion of how the show decides to portray his developtment.

I can say it this way - You like Kitamura, and that greatly influences (wrongly may I add) how your opinion of how the show decides to portray his developtment.

Liking and disliking are both perverting ones decision. Juts that you like the character doenst make your opinion better than the one who doesn't.

- You've read the novels. Hey, guess what? NOONE CARES. This is the thread for the anime.

With this one i have to agree. But you have to admit that knowing original source does give you some advantage which may or may not come true.

- You think it's forced, artificial, contrived, and him not being popular amongst fans of Toradora somehow has something to do with it.

Not really. You are just incapable to read carefully. Or maybe I am incapable to express myself clearly (its 6 am in here after all and i still ahd no sleep, busy writing papers) :P

I am saying that his character is shallow already and the fact that his popularity do not rise after the said "depth" creation just shows that 'depth' creation may be not so deep at all. Well In anime discussion it still has to happen though as the depth only brought out recently. But you have read yourself that some people still do not like him, and actually started to dislike him more after this one, rather than liking.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

See, this is your opinion. It isn't a fact, it's subjective.

And whose opinion isn't? Yours?

Our both opinion are equally subjective. And yours is biased just as much as mines. We are both sharing two opinions that are both subjective. And this where we will always stop as there cannot be an objective opinion as long as it is based on individual understanding.

[Master Chibi]

I don't use the stickers buddy, I just have to take them off your replies whenever we end up butting heads.

Fortunately other people actually agree with me at this point~

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

While I offer a notion that more info does not equals upon creating a character depth. We are still on the same wheel and doesn't make your opinion better as we both provide our opinions and both provide completely different notions that follow.

You just think you are right, I think I am.

It may be deep or it may be not. Your defending and my defending stands on the same ground of may which amkes yours statement just as invallid as mine or mine, just as invalid as yours . We are just stating our opinions neither giving any support on that but the notions taht are already different.

You keep on using those magical oppose stickers just as much as I do, its just taht you are too full of yourself to admit it, as those stickers are always the statements.




I can say it this way - You like Kitamura, and that greatly influences (wrongly may I add) how your opinion of how the show decides to portray his developtment.

Liking and disliking are both perverting ones decision. Juts that you like the character doenst make your opinion better than the one who doesn't.




With this one i have to agree. But you have to admit that knowiong original source does give you some adbantage which may or may not come true.



Not really. You are just incapable to read carefully. :P

I am saying that his character is shallow already and the fact that his popularity do not rise after the said "depth" creation just shows that 'depth' creation may be not so deep at all. Well In anime discussion it still has to happen though as the depth only brought out recently. But you have read yourself that some people still do not like him, and actually started to dislike him more after this one, rather than liking.

Okay.

All you are doing is trying to prove that he's just as biased as you are.

You're doing it wrong.

You're also using thiny veiled insults to attempt to make a point. This makes you look unintelligent.

[wistfulloner]

People, lets not argue about this. The main focus of your argument, how Kitamura is viewed, has been lost already, and has given way to bashing each other. Lets stay on topic.

[Darknemo2000]

Well the point is that we are all biased in here, and you try to prove my opinion to be wrong... based on your opinion. Which is what it will be and neither will prove it to be right.

But this is what discussions are about , sharing opinions even if they end up in clash. But in general we will never find a consensus as in the end these are always our opinions you state my opinion being wrong I state yours. And so to the eternity, simply because it is an opinion.

And how it is wrong?

Ogh yeah, it is your opinion about it being wrong. But does it make it wrong?

Well the insult was unintended as only later I noticed that I missed part of the sentence (and was editing while you quoted me). Or at least I did not meant to be one-sided but two sided (directed on me as well).

When you try to talk about subjectiveness and say the person is wrong because of that, you have to remember that what you talk is most probably subjectiveness as well so your criticism stand on the same ground.

On our forums the only objectiveness is moderators and admins. Why? Because their subjectiveness have the power. When subjectiveness has the power it becomes objective.

Since neither yours nor mine can overpower each other we are bound to be always subjective. Its a cruel truth about the objectiveness in human world. Even rules or laws are actually subjectiveness which has the power. But it can be just - it can apply to each and every equally. Bit on the whole it is subjective in the morals it supports or defends.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

People, lets not argue about this. The main focus of your argument, how Kitamura is viewed, has been lost already, and has given way to bashing each other. Lets stay on topic.

Nothing's been lost, it's just that noone else has bothered to reply.

I'm just trying to squeeze actual reasons out of darkenemo, but if it bothers you so I will stop.

;p

[Darknemo2000]

The attempt is two-fold I am trying to do the same with you. it is just our reasons appareantly seem to be unreasonable for each other.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Well the point is that we are all biased in here, and you try to prove my opinion to be wrong... based on your opinion. Which is what it will be and neither will prove it to be right.

But this is what discussions are about , sharing opinions even if they end up in clash. But in general we will never find a consensus as in the end these are always our opinions you state my opinion being wrong I state yours. And so to the eternity, simply because it is an opinion.

And how it is wrong?

Ogh yeah, it is your opinion about it being wrong. But does it make it wrong?

Well the insult was unintended as only later I noticed that I missed part of the sentence (and was editing while you quoted me). Or at least I did not meant to be one-sided but two sided (directed on me as well).

When you try to talk about subjectiveness and say the person is wrong because of that, you have to remember that what you talk is most probably subjectiveness as well so your criticism stand on the same ground.

On our forums the only objectiveness is moderators and admins. Why? Because their subjectiveness have the power. When subjectiveness has the power it becomes objective.

Since neither yours nor mine can overpower each other we are bound to be always subjective. Its a cruel truth about the objectiveness in human world. Even rules or laws are actually subjectiveness which has the power. But it can be just - it can apply to each and every equally. Bit on the whole it is subjective in the morals it supports or defends.

Sigh.

Objective: Kitamura dyed his hair blonde.

Subjective: Kitamura's development is forced and artificial.

Objective: Kitamura is behaving in an angsty, emo fashion.

Subjective: Kitamura's character has no depth.

See the difference?

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Sigh.

Objective: Kitamura dyed his hair blonde.

Subjective: Kitamura's development is forced and artificial.

Objective: Kitamura is behaving in an angsty, emo fashion.

Subjective: Kitamura's character has no depth.

See the difference?

You 'conveniently' forgot to mention another out of which (or more so collision with afore mentioned subjectiveness) it all steamed:

Subjective: Kitamura's development is well build.

Subjective: Kitamura's character has depth


Or are you saying that we all argued about Kitamura's hair being blond and not?

[Tyabann]

-_-


...I... I just...

There's no point in arguing with you. No point at all.

[Darknemo2000]

Of course, since you understand that both opinions are subjective. Thus making your one-sided (when you mention only one subjectiveness - mine, not mentioning the other sides) comment bit embarrassing.

[Vexx]

Personally, I don't mind the head banging on interpretation until someone starts calling names or accuse the other person of being incapable or stupid.

Dark, you really didn't refute Kaisos subject : object post, you just added to it. The objective part would be a list of actions that relate to the subjective statements you listed.

The only thing I have to say is that currently, by the anime, Kitamura's actions are a bit inexplicable ... therein lies the mystery. The arc isn't over. If it ends without clarifying why he acts the way he does (by flashback or whatever) then we can probably reach some consensus the execution was crapped.

*Appearances* are that he's an over-reactionary emo kid hiding in a popular mature student council VP who likes the prez ..... like all the other characters, there are probably some secrets behind the shields.

[wistfulloner]

I don't know how you always seem to appear with something smart and to say, Vexx.

Not that it bothers me, but if this goes on for a couple more posts, you can expect a visit from one of the mods very soon.

[Darknemo2000]

The greatest problem with this is that both statements (positive and negative) about Kitamura's character depth are subjective.

The core of this would be as I understand two different original positions regarding of how we treat character's depth:

Chibby: Any information, that was not given before, provided about character creates a character depth.

Me: Information about the character does not necessarily create character depth.

In Kitamura's case I commented that the situation that was created is artificial, thus making the build up attempts artificial build ups.

Chibby believes that there is nothing artificial in this, thus the info really lead to deepening the character.

Both of the opinions are opinions and what is worse, both are based on difference stances of the starting position (A: Info necessarily creates character depth, B: Info does not necessarily create character depth) and both are valid and invalid at the same time.

Which means that the the collision, and most likely fruitless, is unavoidable.

Kaisos just started emphasizing my part of being subjective (which I never argued it to be) yet did not mention that the opposing opinion is just as subjective, which I believe to be intentional.

P.S. If we were to go bit into philosophy, then even what Kaisos listed as objective is not objective at all, in a sense that seeing of color is not enough, it still has to be recorded and interpretative by our brains, which makes even the information that we get from our sensors ultimately is subjective as well. So even the statement 'Kitamura has dyed his hair blond' becomes subjective. Of course this leads to the eternal cycle of solipsism, thus probably it is better to avoid such theme since we would never be able to break it, unless we, like Descartes, would use demiurg (god) to break it.