AnimeSuki Forums

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-20, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

But he could have theoretically done just as well against Bills at that point by not going SSJ. We don't know.

Also, he was likely SSJ2. They don't know how to animate SSJ2 unless they're specifically told to (ie: only when Goku explains what each level is).

By deductive reasoning, if SSJ1 enhanced with the God boost was only able to roughly match Bills at 70%, then the base form with the same augmentation wouldn't do as well. We even see that base Goku was struggling moreso than when he went SSJ1.

He was definitely SSJ1. There's a clear and distinct difference between those 2 forms (especially for Goku).

GDB · 2013-09-20, 18:48

He was only base form for like 15 seconds. And he didn't really do THAT much better as SSJ (1 or 2). And no, he was not "definitely" SSJ1. In case you haven't noticed, they haven't differentiated between SSJ and SSJ2 since the Goku vs Majin Vegeta outside of 2 distinct instances, both of which were when Goku was explaining the forms and counting them off.

However, the exact same scenes in the manga will show a distinct SSJ2 electric aura. A key example of this is Vegeta vs Kid Buu. The animators are just lazy as hell. They don't even do the tiny bit of research required to know that Gohan can't go SSJ, yet had him do it twice in the movie, and when called out by the writer (after fans pointed it out to him), they still only changed one of the two scenes.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-20, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

He was only base form for like 15 seconds. And he didn't really do THAT much better as SSJ (1 or 2). And no, he was not "definitely" SSJ1. In case you haven't noticed, they haven't differentiated between SSJ and SSJ2 since the Goku vs Majin Vegeta outside of 2 distinct instances, both of which were when Goku was explaining the forms and counting them off.

However, the exact same scenes in the manga will show a distinct SSJ2 electric aura. A key example of this is Vegeta vs Kid Buu. The animators are just lazy as hell.

We don't need to have everything explicitly told to us all the time. I've read the manga in its entirety so I know exactly what you're talking about. But it's bright as day that Goku is a SSJ1 when fighting Bills (this isn't like Vegeta or Adult Gohan where their hair is very similar to their SSJ1 forms). Goku's hair is that of SSJ1, which is noticeably different than his SSJ2 hair. And it's not that the animators are lazy, but it's that they simply don't know what they're doing sometimes (this is Toei we're talking about here).

GDB · 2013-09-20, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

And it's not that the animators are lazy, but it's that they simply don't know what they're doing sometimes (this is Toei we're talking about here).

Same thing. They can research, but they don't.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-20, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

Same thing. They can research, but they don't.

In that sense, I totally agree with you. But I mean, if they're putting in all this effort to animate something, why not draw something correctly? It's incompetence, really.

But you may be right in that base Goku augmented with SSJ God could have done just as well as SSJ1 with the same boost. After all, Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku in this movie

.

Mad Pierrot · 2013-09-20, 19:50

I don't get why is Vegeta so happy. Didn't he already surpass Goku like two other times? This time it lasted like forty minutes since Goku's regular Super Saiyan form got stronger in after losing his God energy

GDB · 2013-09-20, 19:56

The first time he probably surpassed him, but it was hard to say for sure since Goku was dying. Then he got bested by an artificial woman. The second time it turned out he hadn't really surpassed him, since Goku had SSJ3 up his sleeve but had refused to use it.

hamazura · 2013-09-21, 06:32

i just watched it!
its pretty funny, exciting and interesting

vegeta dance

and i always laugh or smile whenever dat god of destruction hunting for earth food

-i dont get the pudding so i will destroy the universe- type plot so funny

the animation is swuper good and dat pillaf girl subordinate, trunks girlfriend

and dat revelation of bills power level was very nice, he is just one of 12 god and even super saiyan 3 (or god) are nothing to him. and his suppose-to-be-handmaid is actually his teacher and stronger than him o.o
but i still think ssj4 gogeta is still stronger (well sadly its non-canon

)

im a dbz huge fanboy from childhood, but i would give it 10/10 even if im not fanboy

Blaat · 2013-09-21, 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

The first time he probably surpassed him, but it was hard to say for sure since Goku was dying. Then he got bested by an artificial woman. The second time it turned out he hadn't really surpassed him, since Goku had SSJ3 up his sleeve but had refused to use it.

The second time was during his 'Super Vegeta' ego tripping, of course he had a year/day advantage over Goku.

Oh god I'm still talking about powerlevels after all these years.

ChainLegacy · 2013-09-21, 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

The second time was during his 'Super Vegeta' ego tripping, of course he had a year/day advantage over Goku.

Oh god I'm still talking about powerlevels after all these years.

Super Vegeta vs imperfect Cell is still one of my favorite parts of the series. His arrogance makes him a fool, but damn he is a badass when he's in control of the situation.

GDB · 2013-09-21, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

The second time was during his 'Super Vegeta' ego tripping, of course he had a year/day advantage over Goku.

Oh, that time. Technically, yeah, but like you said he got to go first in training. Then after Goku's training, he had been surpassed again. And even after another year of training still hadn't caught up. So I don't really count it.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-21, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

The first time he probably surpassed him, but it was hard to say for sure since Goku was dying. Then he got bested by an artificial woman. The second time it turned out he hadn't really surpassed him, since Goku had SSJ3 up his sleeve but had refused to use it.

Piccolo is very astute, so if he was of the belief that Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that time it's probably true. The second time was more about getting on equal footing with Goku. He knew that Goku was stronger, so he resorted to getting the Majin upgrade to even things out. But like you said, Goku still had SSJ3 up his sleeve.

Essentially, Vegeta surpassed Goku twice in the Android/Cell saga.

sky black swordman · 2013-09-21, 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Piccolo is very astute, so if he was of the belief that Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that time it's probably true. The second time was more about getting on equal footing with Goku. He knew that Goku was stronger, so he resorted to getting the Majin upgrade to even things out. But like you said, Goku still had SSJ3 up his sleeve.

Essentially, Vegeta surpassed Goku twice in the Android/Cell saga.

Is that including the time when Vegeta came out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber after using it the first time?

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-21, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky black swordman

Is that including the time when Vegeta came out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber after using it the first time?

No. He was still weaker than Goku by that point.

GDB · 2013-09-21, 16:40

No, Vegeta was stronger than Goku by that point. Goku hadn't gone in yet, but Vegeta manhandled Cell.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-21, 16:58

Oops. I accidentally mistook that as after Vegeta had gone in for the second time, in which case he was weaker than Goku.

saravis · 2013-09-22, 12:56

Finally got around to watching it, it was fun. I disliked the overuse of CG, but what can you do. I like this Bills, he seems an interesting character and I hope there's more with him. I'm also hoping that there ends up being more to this SSG, I found the look and performance to be rather disappointing. Perhaps it could be an incomplete form to allow for further development.

Gundamx · 2013-09-23, 17:31

just watch it
first Goku power up was same as Broly movie but it look like even that power was not enough

and it interesting how Bill always hold back
he used power just enough to defeat his enemy buy not to kill them
( bulma slap was a lot weaker than gotenks slaps which was weaker than gohan kick...etc)

edit: I like how they used a lot of battle background from dragonball (city, jungle, mountains(where he fought with Vegeta), space)

edit 2: goku used his head!
not attack with it but used strategy > simple one > he didn't jump on fight while everyone else was fighting Bill but keep watcing it from far away to know his fighting style
(though he forget most it and receive 100 slaps from Bulma thanks to it

)

LuckyCat · 2013-09-23, 19:57

I just watched it too!

Best things:

1. Vegeta undergoes a serious character development securing his title as the franchise's second most popular character. Oh and BINGO!

2. Chibi Mai.

3. Goku's Super Saiyan transformation after becoming God. Just beautiful.

Lamest things:

1. Gohan and Piccolo are worthless fighters

2. Many scenes were basically copy-paste animations from the series. For example, Goku slowly walking towards Bills in their second meeting was straight out of Goku's entrance when fighting Freeza.

3. The climactic fight didn't really have any animosity in it. Goku and Bills were pretty much buddies.

Overall very enjoyable in terms of nostalgic Dragon Ball awesome. There's plenty of room for sequels too. Not to pour gas on the fire here, but there's no way Goku was fighting in SSJ2 or 3 during that final battle. It makes way more sense to save that for another movie, and besides one of Z fighters would have pointed it out.

GDB · 2013-09-23, 20:03

The Z fighters couldn't even tell what was going on by then. There's no way they would've pointed it out. Not only that, but it wasn't an important plot point so they wouldn't have even cared to do so.

2013-09-21, 06:32	Link #808
hamazura whatever Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: wherever	i just watched it! its pretty funny, exciting and interesting vegeta dance and i always laugh or smile whenever dat god of destruction hunting for earth food -i dont get the pudding so i will destroy the universe- type plot so funny the animation is swuper good and dat pillaf girl subordinate, trunks girlfriend and dat revelation of bills power level was very nice, he is just one of 12 god and even super saiyan 3 (or god) are nothing to him. and his suppose-to-be-handmaid is actually his teacher and stronger than him o.o but i still think ssj4 gogeta is still stronger (well sadly its non-canon ) im a dbz huge fanboy from childhood, but i would give it 10/10 even if im not fanboy __________________

2013-09-21, 16:58	Link #816
Blackbeard D. Kuma Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007	Oops. I accidentally mistook that as after Vegeta had gone in for the second time, in which case he was weaker than Goku. __________________ Speed is weight. Have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?

2013-09-22, 12:56	Link #817
saravis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006	Finally got around to watching it, it was fun. I disliked the overuse of CG, but what can you do. I like this Bills, he seems an interesting character and I hope there's more with him. I'm also hoping that there ends up being more to this SSG, I found the look and performance to be rather disappointing. Perhaps it could be an incomplete form to allow for further development. __________________ So people understand that I do not take these discussions seriously, its all good fun.

2013-09-23, 17:31	Link #818
Gundamx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	just watch it first Goku power up was same as Broly movie but it look like even that power was not enough and it interesting how Bill always hold back he used power just enough to defeat his enemy buy not to kill them ( bulma slap was a lot weaker than gotenks slaps which was weaker than gohan kick...etc) edit: I like how they used a lot of battle background from dragonball (city, jungle, mountains(where he fought with Vegeta), space) edit 2: goku used his head! not attack with it but used strategy > simple one > he didn't jump on fight while everyone else was fighting Bill but keep watcing it from far away to know his fighting style (though he forget most it and receive 100 slaps from Bulma thanks to it ) Last edited by Gundamx; 2013-09-23 at 18:03.

2013-09-20, 18:48	Link #802
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	He was only base form for like 15 seconds. And he didn't really do THAT much better as SSJ (1 or 2). And no, he was not "definitely" SSJ1. In case you haven't noticed, they haven't differentiated between SSJ and SSJ2 since the Goku vs Majin Vegeta outside of 2 distinct instances, both of which were when Goku was explaining the forms and counting them off. However, the exact same scenes in the manga will show a distinct SSJ2 electric aura. A key example of this is Vegeta vs Kid Buu. The animators are just lazy as hell. They don't even do the tiny bit of research required to know that Gohan can't go SSJ, yet had him do it twice in the movie, and when called out by the writer (after fans pointed it out to him), they still only changed one of the two scenes.

2013-09-20, 19:50	Link #806
Mad Pierrot Corrupted fool Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: I'm everywhere Age: 33	I don't get why is Vegeta so happy. Didn't he already surpass Goku like two other times? This time it lasted like forty minutes since Goku's regular Super Saiyan form got stronger in after losing his God energy

2013-09-20, 19:56	Link #807
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	The first time he probably surpassed him, but it was hard to say for sure since Goku was dying. Then he got bested by an artificial woman. The second time it turned out he hadn't really surpassed him, since Goku had SSJ3 up his sleeve but had refused to use it.

2013-09-21, 16:40	Link #815
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	No, Vegeta was stronger than Goku by that point. Goku hadn't gone in yet, but Vegeta manhandled Cell.

2013-09-23, 19:57	Link #819
LuckyCat Wise Kitty Cat Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: San Diego, CA	I just watched it too! Best things: 1. Vegeta undergoes a serious character development securing his title as the franchise's second most popular character. Oh and BINGO! 2. Chibi Mai. 3. Goku's Super Saiyan transformation after becoming God. Just beautiful. Lamest things: 1. Gohan and Piccolo are worthless fighters 2. Many scenes were basically copy-paste animations from the series. For example, Goku slowly walking towards Bills in their second meeting was straight out of Goku's entrance when fighting Freeza. 3. The climactic fight didn't really have any animosity in it. Goku and Bills were pretty much buddies. Overall very enjoyable in terms of nostalgic Dragon Ball awesome. There's plenty of room for sequels too. Not to pour gas on the fire here, but there's no way Goku was fighting in SSJ2 or 3 during that final battle. It makes way more sense to save that for another movie, and besides one of Z fighters would have pointed it out.

2013-09-23, 20:03	Link #820
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	The Z fighters couldn't even tell what was going on by then. There's no way they would've pointed it out. Not only that, but it wasn't an important plot point so they wouldn't have even cared to do so.