Learning Japanese

[Izayoi]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Then I should say either learn, or don't argue.




I really can't understand your logic

I am not really even trying to argue, but it just...ummm... aren't we discussing? I swear I learned a whole lot about Korean just now. As for logic, I just typed some nonsense just for the heck of it.

edit: for lulz. ROFL

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I will say Hangul is one of the "cooler" looking phonetic scripts just as a personal opinion from my love of languages.

But don't mind me... I have amazing difficulty holding two separate phonetic scripts in my head because my brain insists that only one script is needed for the same language

Understandable.
It is not rare one language uses more than two scripts (Hieroglyph, Hieratic and Demotic in Egyptian, e.g.), but such writing system is quite confusing for learners. I think it is inevitable trade-off of expressing power and easiness. Some poetic expressions of Japanese can exist only in the multi-scripts environment.

[Noyemi K]

Originally Posted by Setsilya~

As for logic, I just typed some nonsense just for the heck of it.

Sh'o tse? A confession? Like most of the stuff I saw on the first post (I swear desu appeared more of a definite article rather than a simple sentence-ender.)

[Quarkboy]

There is almost no relationship between Japanese and Chinese as SPOKEN language, at least structurally.

Originally they were completely separate, the sentence verb placement is totally different, too.
However Japan never developed its own writing system and with the introduction of the chinese writing system Japan basically borrowed (i.e. stole) chinese characters and applied them to their own language.

The earliest "Japanese" in written form is basically ancient chinese except written in a Japanese grammar, so it's all out of order if you try and read it as normal chinese.
In order to write something down you basically had to know the Chinese word equivalents to what you were trying to say, so that the written language was mostly chinese...
This basically persisted as the writing style, and as readings changed for kanji in china and got re-imported into Japan again, the written language evolved a bit, especially with the spread of Zen Buddhism.

However it was still very difficult to write native Japanese words down. Normally if you wanted to write some native japanese word you would either translate it to a chinese equivalent, or you would write chinese characters that sounded kind of like the original word and ignore the original chinese meaning. However at some point this second method developed its own special characters, as simplifications of common chinese kanji used to represent sounds. This became the hiragana. Now finally Japanese had it's own purely phonetic alphabet, and words that were native Japanese could be easily written down.
That's how we have the hybrid writing system that there is today.

So while Kanji did originally come from chinese, and many japanese words that are written with 2 or more kanji originally come from ancient Chinese, the similarities end there.

For someone who knows no Japanese or chinese, it can definitely seem like the languages are related since they use many of the same characters, but it's like using the same type of paint to paint two different pictures.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

There is almost no relationship between Japanese and Chinese as SPOKEN language, at least structurally.

Originally they were completely separate, the sentence verb placement is totally different, too.
However Japan never developed its own writing system and with the introduction of the chinese writing system Japan basically borrowed (i.e. stole) chinese characters and applied them to their own language.

Ah, you're one of those eh? xD
"Theys stoooooles iiiiiiiit!"
- somedays i kinda jazz that up and say:
'they borrowed the writing system from china, some odd thousand years ago and are still "borrowing" it to this day as you can see.
To conclude Quarkboy's post:

Kunyomi (訓読み) is the reading of a word that originates from Japanese prior to the introduction of Kanji characters (and their Chinese readings) from China.

For instance the word east (東) is pronounced "tou" in onyomi (the Chinese reading). Japanese has always has a word for the concept of east and it is pronounced "higashi" or sometimes "azuma". Therefore the Kanji character has had the "higashi" and "azuma" pronounciations grafted onto it.

In this style the Japanese language gains the benefits of the Chinese written language but retains its original Japanese words.

The Kunyomi reading system is characterized by its balanced consonant-vowel structure (similar to that of Spanish).

and

Onyomi (音読み) is the Japanese approximation of the original Chinese pronunciation of a Kanji character.

When the Japanese language was infused with the Kanji character system it also gained many Chinese words for concepts that either didn't exist or could not be articulated as elegantly as in the Chinese language.

Along with this character set came the pronunciation for the characters. Onyomi is characterized by its consonant-vowel-consonant structure. The word Peking(北京lit: north capital) is more appropriately spelled Pekin and demonstrates this structure.

The onyomi reading is usually used when two kanji characters are placed side by side with the exception of surnames, place names, and uniquely Japanese concepts.

Simple example being water:
水= mizu = water (kunyomi)
水曜日= SUI+YOU+BI = wednesday (onyomi)

So when you study kanji, you gotta memorise all readings of it.
Some are 1 like 'den' 電(onyomi only)
Some are two, like the example i gave above. (kunyomi + onyomi)
Some which are "i exist only to fry some brain cells for my masochistic pleasure" have 3 or 4 and at the stage I'm at, i wouldn't be surprised if i've come across a kanji with 5 readings, I'm traumatised beyond help, i can't remember...

日= nichi (kunyomi)
But the onyomi, depending on what other kanji this character is joined with can be read as:
"hi" or "bi" or "pi"

日ごろ = hi+goro
誕生日 = tan+jou+bi
月日 = gap+pi

And for the "piece of resistance"
日曜日 = nichi+you+bi

Fun isn't it...

- Just curious, how is 水　character said in manderin or cantonese, i'm sure it's very very similar...
As i often hear with my chinese friends anyways:

"We can recognise the characters and guess a meaning for them, but we still have to memorise how to say them all in Japanese."

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by Mystique

Ah, you're one of those eh? xD
"Theys stoooooles iiiiiiiit!"

It sounds like "Englishmen stole the alphabet from Italy".
We need distinguish the common cultural heritage and intellectual thefts.

Originally Posted by Mystique

- Just curious, how is 水　character said in manderin or cantonese, i'm sure it's very very similar...
As i often hear with my chinese friends anyways:

"We can recognise the characters and guess a meaning for them, but we still have to memorise how to say them all in Japanese."

I once discussed the topic there. Basically the Chinese-like pronunciation of kanji in Japan, so-called on-yomi, reflects the continental pronunciation at the time of introduction. In general, peripheral dialects often preserve ancient sounds better than paroles spoken in the central area. So I expect Cantonese is nearer to Japanese than Mandarin in that point... (Chinese speakers, help!)

[Doughnuts]

I'm no Chinese Linguist, but I've read the classic "shui hu zhuan" [水滸傳] aka The Water Margin

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

In general, peripheral dialects often preserve ancient sounds better than paroles spoken in the central area. So I expect Cantonese is nearer to Japanese than Mandarin in that point... (Chinese speakers, help!)

Yup, in many cases, I noticed that words in Cantonese and other Southern dialects (ie. from Shanghai) have pronunciations that are VERY close to that of their Japanese equivalents. What you say is pretty much true for Chinese. In the Central/Northern parts, the regional "dialect" really is just Mandarin with a very distinct and heavy accent. In the South, like Hong Kong and Shanghai, the local dialect is incomprehensible to a non-native of the area. Whether those are closer to old Chinese or not, I don't know.

I think it's just a coincidence though. The Japanese already had a spoken language before any Chinese influence had a chance to exert itself.

[ShadowVlican]

can someone help me translate this into japanese (hiragana only):

Hi Teacher,

Sorry for taking up your office hour today, but I really enjoyed talking with you.

i have no idea how to make such a complex sentence i just started learning japanese around 4 weeks ago, so wutever the translation is, i'll be sure to "reverse-engineer" it to see what vocabulary and particles to use

thanks in advance!

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by ShadowVlican

Hi Teacher,
Sorry for taking up your office hour today, but I really enjoyed talking with you.

a word-to-word simple translation:
せんせい
きょう　は　おしごと　ちゅう　に　おじゃま　して　しまい　すみません　でした。
でも　おはなし　できて　ほんとう　に　たのしかった　です。

more native-like one:
先生（せんせい）
本日（ほんじつ）は貴重（きちょう）なお時間（じかん）を賜（たまわ）り，ありがとうございま した。
先生とお話（はなし）できたことを心（こころ）から嬉（うれ）しく思（おも）います。

[waterchan]

What other ways are there to compare one thing to another by means of a simile, such as "It was like a storm"?

The only way I know of doing this is by using のよう, as in 嵐のよう. Are there other ways of doing this that might be more appropriate for certain situations?

[FatPianoBoy]

What about らしい?

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by waterchan

What other ways are there to compare one thing to another by means of a simile, such as "It was like a storm"?

The only way I know of doing this is by using のよう, as in 嵐のよう. Are there other ways of doing this that might be more appropriate for certain situations?

Yes. In a casual context, people often use "みたい", e.g. 「彼のしぐさは猫みたいだ」. In a traditional/dramatic situation, "ごとく" is sometimes prefered, e.g. 「風のごとく すばやい動き」.

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

What about らしい?

Not exactly. A-らしい means that it is suitable for A. For exapmle, 「バカらしい ふるまい」 means a behaviour suitable for an idiot (therefore, foolish).

[waterchan]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

Yes. In a casual context, people often use "みたい", e.g. 「彼のしぐさは猫みたいだ」. In a traditional/dramatic situation, "ごとく" is sometimes prefered, e.g. 「風のごとく すばやい動き」.

I had never heard of ごとく until now. Thank you.

^If I wanted to express that in Japanese, would 今更　be appropriate? As in...　「みたい」が知っていたけど「ごとく」の言葉が今更分かる。　ありがとう。

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by waterchan

If I wanted to express that in Japanese, would 今更　be appropriate? As in...　「みたい」が知っていたけど「ごとく」の言葉が今更分かる。　ありがとう。

「みたい」は知っていたけど，「ごとく」という言葉は今知った。
looks rather smart.

今更（いまさら） in modern Japanese implies either the regrettable lateness or of the feeling of out-of-date.

- 今更悔やんでも，過去は消えない。(However you regret now, you cannot erase your past)

- 今更ながら，きのうPlayStation2を買った。(Though it might be outdated, I bought a PlayStation2 yesterday)

[Mystique]

Was just checking out jgram.org myself for the various uses of 'as if', gotoku, i've not heard of either, but it says JLPT 1 - go figure, i've not got there just yet
Thanks for that.

gotoku
you
rashii

A useful note is to scroll down to the near bottom of the rashii link to the "see also" - there are some notes for the other words that have similar implciations in english.
(gotta love this sensitive-ass language...)

[nikorai]

I'm stopping by for a brief moment.
Noticed discussing the words such as 'you, mitai, rashii etc'.
Thanks for additional info about 'gotoku'. For me it always had a feel of sounding poetic like.

Originally Posted by Doughnuts

I'm no Chinese Linguist, but I've read the classic "shui hu zhuan" [水滸傳] aka The Water Margin

Oh yes, water is always pronounced 'shui' in Chinese (honestly I don't know Chinese at all) like in 'fengshui' (=風水）. And fengshui would be 'fuusui' in Japanese.

By the way, when watching japanese tv (it's online and in awful quality but still) I noticed that when it comes to chinese people the japanese read chinese names simply using 'onyomi' for the kanji (formerly hanzi). Of course onyomi is basically a chinese reading but altered beyond understanding.

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by nikorai

By the way, when watching japanese tv (it's online and in awful quality but still) I noticed that when it comes to chinese people the japanese read chinese names simply using 'onyomi' for the kanji (formerly hanzi). Of course onyomi is basically a chinese reading but altered beyond understanding.

Yes. It has been argued for many times in which way we should pronounce. Today Japanese massmedia accept the following standard.

For Korean names:
Read in Korean way(s). 金正日 is Kim Jong Il, not Kin Shou Nichi.

For Chinese names:
Read in Japanese way. 胡錦濤 is Ko Kintou, not Hu Jintao. It is because you cannot decide a sole correct pronunciation of Chinese words; his name is read as Wu Kamto by Cantonese people. A name is essentially the scripts, not the sounds there.

I've heard the attitude is reciprocal. Korean media pronounce Japanese names in Japanese way, and Xinhua reads in Mandarin way. I don't know Taiwanese affairs.

[Nervous Venus]

Just a quick question (which has probably been asked many times before, and I'm sorry if it sounds repetitive) but what are some of your methods for learning kanji?

Although I understand daily Japanese perfectly, I have problem reading/learning Kanji. I'm trying out flashcards, but it just feels terribly overwhelming to focus simply on the cards. I'm wondering if it's worth the investment to hire a tutor, as I have a few months before I have to visit Japan with family.

I'm also learning for personal reasons (all my favorite comics are furiganaless). Any suggestions would be helpful.

[nikorai]

LiberLibri
Thanks a lot for providing information about reading names. This is a part of japanese that doesn't seem to be in the textbook.

Nervous Venus

The opinion is that kanji are learned automatically as words both standalone and in compounds.
You might want to get a textbook and review the words.

Students are usually asked to dedicate some time to writing individual kanji repeatedly on a piece of paper. I'm self taught and i'm too lazy to do that which results in that i dont remember kanji for many words but can recognize then in text or vice-versa, I remember the kanji but forget the reading.