Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

than we will have idol Lacus sending whisper here and there to some people like shin (are you sure what you are doing is the right thing), Rey(your future is your own and not anyone else) ....etc
and next BAAM
Shin, Rey, Lunamaria, Minerva... and every ace pilots/ships has joined together to from new Clyn alliance under the lead of ice queen

In that case we would not have an interesting story; thus Destiny would not occur.

[Aquaman OS]

Really, everything was just stacked against Cagalli and stacked for Lacus in Destiny.

Cagalli: Couldn't really have a relationship with Athrun after Seed. He leaves once the story picks up. Has no support base outside of the AA crew and they didn't help her at the political table. Orb forces won't obey her. Most of her assets are stuff left over from the previous war. When AA is hunted by Zaft they barely escape with their lives, and have to go into hiding for awhile afterwards. Yuna pretty much goes against her wishes to his end. Has to sit out at the end and basically let everyone save the world for her.

Lacus: Got two years of living with Kira in peace undisturbed. Still has Kira with her for nearly all of the series. Her previous supporters are not only still alive, she gets even more people like Terminal and the Dom pilots. The Zaft forces hestiate when she speaks to them. Get's SF IJ and the Doms built from scratch. When Eternal is hunted by Zaft Kira saves the day and gets them out of there and in time to go help Orb. Meer submits to her entirely once they meet. Helps save the world in person.

Come to think of it it's the same for Athrun and Kira.

Athrun: Struggles to help Cagalli at first and can't really spend much time with her. Has no real power in Orb, has to accept a Gundam bribe from Durandal. His old friends in Zaft Yzak and Dearka are far from his side for the whole story. His plan to help Orb by being is Zaft is almost immediately ruined when Orb allies with EA. Is on a ship where he's uncomfortable, and unwelcome. None of the Minerva crew really give him any respect despite his status and fame. Loses Heine, the only real friend he made on Minerva. None of the Minerva crew like his CF way of doing things, and want him to change to their ways instead. Totally breaks down in the face of fighting Orb and Kira. Is defeated twice, and both times he's down for large chunk of episodes as a result.

Kira: Gets to live with Lacus uninterrupted for two years. Still has Freedom and AA, can stay with the side he wants from the start. All his old friends from AA are still there and with him from the start. His plan to help take back Orb for Cagalli eventually works. Is on a ship where he's with friends and essentially in charge. All of the Orb defectors practically worship the ground he walks on and respect him immensly because of his reputation. Not only doesn't lose anybody else, but a supposed dead friend turns up alive again. Everybody is on board with the CF mentality. Is unwavering in his resolve, and easily defeats Athrun when they have to fight again without stress from it. Is defeated once, and back on his feet almost immediately afterwards.

[The American Average]

Aquaman OS i agree with every word you put down, the writers seemed to really favor the Lacus and Kira, but i don't think they ever said anything to disapprove that though.

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Really, everything was just stacked against Cagalli and stacked for Lacus in Destiny.

Cagalli: Couldn't really have a relationship with Athrun after Seed. He leaves once the story picks up. Has no support base outside of the AA crew and they didn't help her at the political table. Orb forces won't obey her. Most of her assets are stuff left over from the previous war. When AA is hunted by Zaft they barely escape with their lives, and have to go into hiding for awhile afterwards. Yuna pretty much goes against her wishes to his end. Has to sit out at the end and basically let everyone save the world for her.

Lacus: Got two years of living with Kira in peace undisturbed. Still has Kira with her for nearly all of the series. Her previous supporters are not only still alive, she gets even more people like Terminal and the Dom pilots. The Zaft forces hestiate when she speaks to them. Get's SF IJ and the Doms built from scratch. When Eternal is hunted by Zaft Kira saves the day and gets them out of there and in time to go help Orb. Meer submits to her entirely once they meet. Helps save the world in person.

Come to think of it it's the same for Athrun and Kira.

Athrun: Struggles to help Cagalli at first and can't really spend much time with her. Has no real power in Orb, has to accept a Gundam bribe from Durandal. His old friends in Zaft Yzak and Dearka are far from his side for the whole story. His plan to help Orb by being is Zaft is almost immediately ruined when Orb allies with EA. Is on a ship where he's uncomfortable, and unwelcome. None of the Minerva crew really give him any respect despite his status and fame. Loses Heine, the only real friend he made on Minerva. None of the Minerva crew like his CF way of doing things, and want him to change to their ways instead. Totally breaks down in the face of fighting Orb and Kira. Is defeated twice, and both times he's down for large chunk of episodes as a result.

Kira: Gets to live with Lacus uninterrupted for two years. Still has Freedom and AA, can stay with the side he wants from the start. All his old friends from AA are still there and with him from the start. His plan to help take back Orb for Cagalli eventually works. Is on a ship where he's with friends and essentially in charge. All of the Orb defectors practically worship the ground he walks on and respect him immensly because of his reputation. Not only doesn't lose anybody else, but a supposed dead friend turns up alive again. Everybody is on board with the CF mentality. Is unwavering in his resolve, and easily defeats Athrun when they have to fight again without stress from it. Is defeated once, and back on his feet almost immediately afterwards.

After reading that, all I can feel is pure disgust. Just pure disgust. What the heck were the writers thinking. Aftter reading all of this, I wished the antagonists had won.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by wredsa

In that case we would not have an interesting story; thus Destiny would not occur.

All the better if it never occurred.....but thats just me (though I would regret the loss of some of the nice MS designs)



Just watched the latest episode......did the writers/directors even know anything about special forces? Not coordinated (HA), No suppressors? No charges/explosives for clearing doors? Getting into MOBILE SUITS of all things on FOREIGN SOIL and losing ALL elements of stealth? DA FUQ? I mean, its not hard to watch a Hollywood movie to get the idea of hows its done. OR Durandal went with the most dirt cheap group he could find.....whatever........

Anyways looking forward to the glorious dick move next week of crashing your sister's wedding in a MS and causing thousands of $ worth of repairs in MS damage. ALL IN HD

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

After reading that, all I can feel is pure disgust. Just pure disgust. What the heck were the writers thinking. Aftter reading all of this, I wished the antagonists had won.

Originally Posted by The American Average

Aquaman OS i agree with every word you put down, the writers seemed to really favor the Lacus and Kira, but i don't think they ever said anything to disapprove that though.

What do you expect. Its been stated that the two are supposed to be the mary sues of the series and a match for the director and his wife.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

After reading that, all I can feel is pure disgust. Just pure disgust. What the heck were the writers thinking. Aftter reading all of this, I wished the antagonists had won.

Oh, but Durandal and Shinn were just as bad.

Who slaughters everything in his way from episode 1 until....43? Shinn. People complain Kira pwns everybody, but enemy grunts are just as incompetent when fighting Shinn. The only difference is that instead of sitting there waiting for Kira to disable them, they sit there waiting for Shinn to kill them.

And Durandal? The world practically hands itself to him. His enemies do such obvious stupid things that let him carry out his plans while still looking great because they are so stupid. Like with Shinn he has a flawless victory until 43.

They are actually worse than Lacus and Kira, because at least they fail to do anything mid series. For all of Kira's flashiness he fails to save the Orb fleet, gets no credit for Destroy, and is defeated by Shinn. All the while making himself and his allies look bad, so Durandal can have them all killed while still claiming the moral high ground.

Really, the writers just had it out for Athrun and Cagalli. Everything goes wrong for them, and unlike Lacus and Kira they don't at least look cool while failing.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Get's SF IJ and the Doms built from scratch.

We don't know the origins of SF, IJ, and the DOM's.

I've read conflicting reports. Some say ZAFT was building them( makes sense given how Durandel wanted to rebuild the iconic figures of the last war Athrun+Lacus, etc) and Terminal stole them mid-construction. Others say they stole the data on them from ZAFT and then built them on their own.

I think to this day, we don't have an official statement about their origins.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

the point of this was what if in a scenario, like Cagalli, no support from friends/groups, all head leaders against her.

That depends on how the Council is run. If everyone has a say in the matter, than it wouldn't be a matter of peer pressure. But if the Chairman has final say on everything, then Lacus would listen to everybody and will decide on what she thinks is best based on what she has heard and whatever information is available to her.

Originally Posted by Skye629

Getting into MOBILE SUITS of all things on FOREIGN SOIL and losing ALL elements of stealth?

They already lost any element of surprise the moment Haro noticed them.

Anyways looking forward to the glorious dick move next week of crashing your sister's wedding in a MS and causing thousands of $ worth of repairs in MS damage. ALL IN HD

A "dick move" would be worrying over repair cost over your sister's future.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Skye629

Just watched the latest episode......did the writers/directors even know anything about special forces? Not coordinated (HA), No suppressors? No charges/explosives for clearing doors? Getting into MOBILE SUITS of all things on FOREIGN SOIL and losing ALL elements of stealth? DA FUQ? I mean, its not hard to watch a Hollywood movie to get the idea of hows its done. OR Durandal went with the most dirt cheap group he could find.....whatever........

I assume Durandal prioritized loyal guys that would be willing to assasinate Lacus Clyne (and help keep the Meer thing secret) and would be willing to kill themselves than get caught over people more skilled or people that he couldn't expose himself to.

That being said they actually didn't do all that badly. The Haro alarm ruined everything. Obviously they weren't expecting that to give them away, and until Andy took that one guy by surprise they were still very quiet. They only go in shooting after one of them dead (which meant they were exposed and the people there knew they weren't there for a friendly visit) and despite all that one of them still manages to sneak perfectly into a place to snipe Lacus while the other guys were distracting them (again, the magic Haro alarm gave him away).

Bringing in the MS was obviously a last ditch effort to flatten the place after they got into the shelter. The leader clearly wasn't happy about it but he'd made it clear they HAD to take her out rather than leave empty handed. And of course they weren't expecting Freedom to be there.

So really, they just weren't expecting Haro to give them away, and Freedom to be there, and kind of paniced and overreacted when they found them. If not for Haro they'd have crept in, killed everyone in their sleep, and gotten away clean.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by quagmire

We don't know the origins of SF, IJ, and the DOM's.

I've read conflicting reports. Some say ZAFT was building them( makes sense given how Durandel wanted to rebuild the iconic figures of the last war Athrun+Lacus, etc) and Terminal stole them mid-construction. Others say they stole the data on them from ZAFT and then built them on their own.

I think to this day, we don't have an official statement about their origins.

Well the end result is all the same....they were being built/started production/blueprints were done, then they got stolen and completed. It was also never said when exactly they started the project so I believe that at the time of their appearance in the show it was acceptable (more so if they stole them while they were partially built)

Originally Posted by monster

They already lost any element of surprise the moment Haro noticed them

My point was that they could have triggered hostilities with Orb forces due to them using MS's and blowing stuff up on foreign soil, of course any element of surprise is lost when an alarm goes off next to the target....

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I assume Durandal prioritized loyal guys that would be willing to assasinate Lacus Clyne (and help keep the Meer thing secret) and would be willing to kill themselves than get caught over people more skilled or people that he couldn't expose himself to.

That being said they actually didn't do all that badly. The Haro alarm ruined everything. Obviously they weren't expecting that to give them away, and until Andy took that one guy by surprise they were still very quiet. They only go in shooting after one of them dead (which meant they were exposed and the people there knew they weren't there for a friendly visit) and despite all that one of them still manages to sneak perfectly into a place to snipe Lacus while the other guys were distracting them (again, the magic Haro alarm gave him away).

Bringing in the MS was obviously a last ditch effort to flatten the place after they got into the shelter. The leader clearly wasn't happy about it but he'd made it clear they HAD to take her out rather than leave empty handed. And of course they weren't expecting Freedom to be there.

So really, they just weren't expecting Haro to give them away, and Freedom to be there, and kind of paniced and overreacted when they found them. If not for Haro they'd have crept in, killed everyone in their sleep, and gotten away clean.

Any special force team should be prepared for the "when the shit hit the fan" scenario, the Haro going off was just something that could always happen in that sort of scenario. An alarm should not hinder their effectiveness other than the loss of surprise (which is sort of moot as with their numbers and "profession" they should have been easily been able to handle two adults, two teens, who on top of that are slowed down by a bunch of children, whose noise I may add helped give away their positions)

Ok suppressors are a bit moot due to their isolated location...but why not have them for the sake of looking professional? They're a part of any special force loadout anyways

If they were more "professional" its should have gone down like this:

Approach house, haro alarm, etcetc.....everything proceeds like in the show until Lacus and co escapes into room. Use high powered explosives (C4?). blow the damn door, toss a grenade in, GG, cleanup, leave on a BOAT, then transfer into a STEALTH SUB farther out in the ocean, get away. DONE, way more proficient, and less resources. And less risk of triggering Orbs notice, and if they really did want to go the route of blowing up the place, they could easily have the sub launch some ballistic missiles

If shit really goes down, swallow some cyanide pills and now there is no links (ZAFT MOBILE SUITS) to ZAFT other than the fact they are Coordinators


Of course though this is all moot in the end due to PLOT ARMOR :P, and the directors needed MS's for FREEDOM to go and make a dramatic reappearance

EDIT: Hmmm but them having MSs may suggest Durandal may have anticipated a hidden MS, but then if he did that was a really bad mis-judgement as the suit most associated with Lacus were the Freedom and Justice (which Im assuming everyone assumed was destroyed, which is sorta bad as most things can be rebuild, excluding Justice of course lol)....perhaps he was expecting an Astray or something.........

[monster]

Originally Posted by Skye629

My point was that they could have triggered hostilities with Orb forces due to them using MS's and blowing stuff up on foreign soil

They probably have taken that into account, including whether the island is isolated enough.

If shit really goes down, swallow some cyanide pills and now there is no links (ZAFT MOBILE SUITS) to ZAFT other than the fact they are Coordinators

ZAFT still has plausible deniability considering it has a history of stolen mobile suits. Beside, as Orb was already going to be their enemy due to the Seirans, it doesn't really matter, and Durandal probably knows that already.

a bunch of children, whose noise I may add helped give away their positions)

Murrue probably gave away their position. The children were actually pretty quiet most of the time.

Use high powered explosives (C4?). blow the damn door, toss a grenade in, GG, cleanup, leave on a BOAT, then transfer into a STEALTH SUB farther out in the ocean, get away. DONE, way more proficient, and less resources. And less risk of triggering Orbs notice,

That's assuming any high powered explosive they could carry would be able to destroy the shelter fast enough and quietly enough.

and if they really did want to go the route of blowing up the place, they could easily have the sub launch some ballistic missiles

They would still have to move in to make sure that Lacus died. It's probably easier to use the mobile suits to do that and then be able to move out quickly.

[Aquaman OS]

Remember they had to kill Lacus and then make sure her remains were taken from the scene as the leader says (presumably because Durandal sent them to get rid of Lacus so nobody could expose Meer). MS's were probably the best way to have useful equipment to search through the rubble in case they had to level the place.

Regarding Zaft forces being spotted there, I don't think Durandal really cared if THEY were seen. What he didn't want was for Lacus to be seen, as that would expose Meer, who was needed to endorse his plans. Hence the MS's to quickly remove her from the scene and shoot down any Orb MS's that showed up (hoping they'd be gone before anything other that a few scouts showed up). He doesn't care if people know they were there so long as they don't know why. He could just claim they were more Junius Seven Terrorists, and even if Orb didn't believe him, what does he care? They were about to become his enemy anyway and his master plan would have eventually had Orb conquered or destroyed regardless so its not like Orb's good graces matter to him. At worst it might have made Athrun suspicious, but he didn't even hear Freedom had taken Cagalli and left Orb until Luna told him so its not like he was good at keeping tabs on his friends back there.

Meanwhile C4 wouldn't have worked. That shelter was strong enough to withstand repeated beam barrages from mobile suits. It would have fallen eventually after a few more hits had Kira not launched Freedom, but I doubt they would have carried enough C4 to match the kind of firepower it withstood.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by wredsa

In that case we would not have an interesting story; thus Destiny would not occur.

doesn't matter.

He ask what if Lacus was in Cagalli shoes.
Leader of country without any supporter.

Will she break down like her?
Or find away to win even though she was alone?

Not if will we have an interesting story or not

[Destined_Fate]

Considering Lacus is a super mary sue that's "perfect" and has no real emotions they would find a way to BS things so everything goes according to plan for her.

Destiny would have been better if Lacus, after killing Durandal, reveals her true colors and Kira remains her knight til the bitter end while Athrun rallies the rest of humanity to kill the two monsters that ruined Destiny in the first place.

Happy end.

[gordol]

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Destiny would have been better if Lacus, after killing Durandal, reveals her true colors and Kira remains her knight til the bitter end while Athrun rallies the rest of humanity to kill the two monsters that ruined Destiny in the first place.

Pffttt.... The only one who can ruin a fictional story and held responsible for it is the writer. Fictional characters like Lacus & Kira have no power to alter Destiny’s story to their liking. Frankly, you blaming fictional characters for a lackluster story is eye-rolling at best and a ridiculous expression of hating at worst .

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Pffttt.... The only one who can ruin a fictional story and held responsible for it is the writer. Fictional characters like Lacus & Kira have no power to alter Destiny’s story to their liking. Frankly, you blaming fictional characters for a lackluster story is eye-rolling at best and a ridiculous expression of hating at worst .

In this case though it is actually true. One of those instances of fans having way too much (if it wasn't already very present) influence over an entertainment production.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

In this case though it is actually true. One of those instances of fans having way too much (if it wasn't already very present) influence over an entertainment production.

In that case, it would be both the fans and the writer’s fault (and probably some other outside factor), not the fault of fictional characters within the story like Lacus & Kira.

[wredsa]

It still bother me how did Murrue Ramius outcoordinate the coordinator elite squadron.