[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[luckyssol]

Well, red definitely symbolizes importance in this game. There a lot of things written in red within the game itself:

Spoiler:

And, of course, my favorite:

Spoiler:

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Renall

For all we know, Lambda got a letter that said "lol watch this, love -Beatrice (for real this time)"

I mean who really knows, right? Maybe there wasn't anything written in red. Or perhaps the solution was there with no red text. What difference does it make?

Agreed. If a valid solution was presented in normal text, that would easily have been sufficient, especially since there's no need for a solution to be a red truth. If it was written in red, rather than being one solution, it would become the only solution, which would have been kind of a silly move on Beato's part. Well, if written red counts, but if not, why are we even having this conversation?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

I think this because Beatrice's character change had noticeable signs since EP 3. In EP 1-4 we only saw Bern at the end of the game (excluding EP 4), so she never got the chance to make a large impression on us. We expected Lambda because she looked like a Takano expy and said outright she was supporting Beatrice, but Bern was rather unexpected. We knew she was somewhat twisted, but not to this level.

about that... Beatrice practically didn't exist in EP1. She only appears in the tea parties and that wasn't enough to get a clear impression on her.

in EP3 she already makes a big change. Yes you learn that in the end she trolled Battler, but it was blatantly obvious that it wasn't "just" a troll. At any rate her wickedness had been already overshadowed by Eva-Beatrice.

The only episode where Beatrice is really depicted as a true villain is EP2.


Regarding Bernkastel it's not like there has ever been any real change. Simply speaking Bern just came out of the closet. Before that point she barely showed any expression. Well I guess it can be said that she changed in that her self-control and detachment suddenly disappeared in EP5.

[Renall]

To note what Jan-Poo said, Beatrice isn't even the magic world killer after ep3's First Twilight. Eva-Beatrice takes over in ep3, and Goldsmith is running the show until the end of ep4. She's basically at her absolute worst moment at the end of ep2, and from there really only gets softer.

[Mercurius]

Wanted to add my own notes about the closed guest room now that I've finished the game. Just to preface, I have read through pages 1-30 and went over most of pages 100-149 of this thread, and will be going back to go over some of the pages in between to see if there were any other theory ideas I missed.

I think it is the result of episodes 1-5, but I was extremely hesitant to believe anything that was presented in Dawn. I spent the majority of the time just waiting to catch the inevitable epic troll / turnabout that would flip the understanding of the events of this episode upside down.

However, that sort of reversal never really came, at least not in the same epic fashion as ep. 3-5, imo.

Spoiler for Closed Guest Room Logic Problem:

The (Alleged) Holes of the Closed Guest Room Logic Problem - (Or, 'How Battler Forgot How to Troll')
I have two main problems with the manner in which the Logic Problem unfolded:

1. Erika does NOT have the Detective Authority. She had duct tape, which is really close to having the detective authority but it was still at most 99% and not 100%. To me, that means that not only was she unable to confirm the death of Battler in the guest room, more importantly, she was unable to 100% confirm that it was Battler that was on the bed in the guest room, meaning he could possibly have never been in the guest room in the first place, or he slipped out after Krauss Rudolf and Hideyoshi inspected the room, before Erika did. The red text and retroactive seal are probably enough to dispute this theory, but I think the lack of the Detective Authority really allows for the possibility that Battler was never actually sealed in the guest room.

2. The Time Stop. Before turning on the light, Erika proposed "For the rest of the fight in this room, the progression of time will be stopped." And Battler agreed to it. This was before Erika entered the bathroom, which was when Battler had supposedly escaped. Unless I'm understanding the translation wrong, it means both Erika and Battler violated this agreement as the following changes occurred:
-Erika reset the chain lock (although this could have been done before the light switched on)
-Erika was 'delayed' by the prank in the bathroom
-Battler allowed his piece to be rescued by Kanon in the interim.
How is it possible for these events to occur if time was not allowed to progress?

3. Erika does NOT have the Detective Authority, part II. If I understand correctly, Erika murdered Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi retroactively, meaning right after the victims and the closed rooms were discovered. And yet during her first time around, she barely had enough time to identify the bodies, and not even confirm their deaths. I think it would be really unfair to state that Erika had barely any time to observe the victims, but then to say she had plenty of time to sever all their heads. Not to mention that means she lied when she and the TIPS initially stated that she couldn't determine their death status. Even if it wasn't retroactive, it doesn't make sense as it stated that Erika went straight for Battler's guest room when she arrived at the mansion. Not to mention the fact that if the victims were not dead to begin with, they were probably not in their original rooms by the time Erika came back to the mansion.

Even though it seems too obvious, I don't think Battler figured out the entire truth. Otherwise, he would have easily gotten out of the Logic Problem, which I don't believe is an actual Logic Problem for the reasons listed above. Unless he really was using his predicament to revive the original Beatrice.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

Wanted to add my own notes about the closed guest room now that I've finished the game. Just to preface, I have read through pages 1-30 and went over most of pages 100-149 of this thread, and will be going back to go over some of the pages in between to see if there were any other theory ideas I missed.

I think it is the result of episodes 1-5, but I was extremely hesitant to believe anything that was presented in Dawn. I spent the majority of the time just waiting to catch the inevitable epic troll / turnabout that would flip the understanding of the events of this episode upside down.

However, that sort of reversal never really came, at least not in the same epic fashion as ep. 3-5, imo.

Spoiler for Closed Guest Room Logic Problem:

The (Alleged) Holes of the Closed Guest Room Logic Problem - (Or, 'How Battler Forgot How to Troll')
I have two main problems with the manner in which the Logic Problem unfolded:

1. Erika does NOT have the Detective Authority. She had duct tape, which is really close to having the detective authority but it was still at most 99% and not 100%. To me, that means that not only was she unable to confirm the death of Battler in the guest room, more importantly, she was unable to 100% confirm that it was Battler that was on the bed in the guest room, meaning he could possibly have never been in the guest room in the first place, or he slipped out after Krauss Rudolf and Hideyoshi inspected the room, before Erika did. The red text and retroactive seal are probably enough to dispute this theory, but I think the lack of the Detective Authority really allows for the possibility that Battler was never actually sealed in the guest room.

2. The Time Stop. Before turning on the light, Erika proposed "For the rest of the fight in this room, the progression of time will be stopped." And Battler agreed to it. This was before Erika entered the bathroom, which was when Battler had supposedly escaped. Unless I'm understanding the translation wrong, it means both Erika and Battler violated this agreement as the following changes occurred:
-Erika reset the chain lock (although this could have been done before the light switched on)
-Erika was 'delayed' by the prank in the bathroom
-Battler allowed his piece to be rescued by Kanon in the interim.
How is it possible for these events to occur if time was not allowed to progress?

3. Erika does NOT have the Detective Authority, part II. If I understand correctly, Erika murdered Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi retroactively, meaning right after the victims and the closed rooms were discovered. And yet during her first time around, she barely had enough time to identify the bodies, and not even confirm their deaths. I think it would be really unfair to state that Erika had barely any time to observe the victims, but then to say she had plenty of time to sever all their heads. Not to mention that means she lied when she and the TIPS initially stated that she couldn't determine their death status. Even if it wasn't retroactive, it doesn't make sense as it stated that Erika went straight for Battler's guest room when she arrived at the mansion. Not to mention the fact that if the victims were not dead to begin with, they were probably not in their original rooms by the time Erika came back to the mansion.

Even though it seems too obvious, I don't think Battler figured out the entire truth. Otherwise, he would have easily gotten out of the Logic Problem, which I don't believe is an actual Logic Problem for the reasons listed above. Unless he really was using his predicament to revive the original Beatrice.

You note upon something I also had a problem with: Ryuukishi's physics slip-up. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not (you can never tell with this guy. Seriously. Never), but the ability to interact with the guestroom would mean that time passed. So, in effect, we get a Logic Error created by Erika herself, as she could only ineract with the room via magic.
For now, I'm going to put it aside as Ryuukishi simply slipping up and forgetting he froze time.
Alternatively, you could argue that since Erika does not exist (if you believe so), she does not actually interact with the guest room, and therefore, never actually was there to break physics.
Still, that's also confusing in itself, so I still think it's best to say Ryuukishi can be an idiot sometimes.
And you say that Erika's moves in the retroactive corpse announcements are not fair. I counter with this. Erika is a bitch. She's not going to play fair. Everything she does are within Battler's rules set out for her, so as unfair as they are, they work. As well, she is an unreliable narrator in this Episode. In fact there is not a single reliable narrator in this Episode. Just because it is implied that she went straight for Battler's guest room does not mean she did. In fact, it might have been Battler writing the game like that, to make it seem like he wasn't aware of the murders that she did while travelling to his room.

[m0h]

How about the 07151129? If we apply the same trick Ange used to spot Featherine, what pops up?

I mean, matching 07 - 15 - 11 - 29 to Japan's syllabes?

[Leafsnail]

It's odd how they keep referring to each other by the names of their vessels. I mean, the Eiserne Jungfrau have been called "scraps of paper", Bern has been called a "black cat" and the Siestas have been slighted as a "rabbit band". Heh. Waiting for Lambda to be referred to as "cheap candy".

I've come up with a solution to Battler's closed room, but I'll play the game to completion before saying it since it'll probably be trampled.

[Auria]

Originally Posted by m0h

How about the 07151129? If we apply the same trick Ange used to spot Featherine, what pops up?

I mean, matching 07 - 15 - 11 - 29 to Japan's syllabes?

Mh I think I tried this before and the only thing that was close to making sense was 15 = ichigo = strawberry XD

[TeeHee]

Hi, it's been a while, everyone... my job has kept me busy, but I finished Ep6.

For now, all I can say is that my general theory hasn't changed (newbies, check my post history). I think the scenes where Featherine picks Ange's brain reinforces my opinion (though not necessarily proves it).

In my opinion, most of this episode was filler. The real meat and potatoes was in Episodes 1-4. Ep5 makes you realize for sure that the mystery is solvable. Ep6 gives you a few minor hints and then adds plot. Amusing plot, but not so useful to me.

Anyone want to pick my brain? (I'm off to work now. I return 5:30 PM CDT.)

[Jan-Poo]

@Mercurius

1) It is Bern and not the detective authority that allows Erika to sublimate a 99% certainty to red truth. Actually that was true for EP5. In EP6 Erika has already become a witch herself, which is why she can use red without the help of Bern.

2)

For the rest of the fight in this room, the progression of time will be stopped. This way, all the moves for both players will be made at the same time, and the first move made will be treated no differently than the last move.

......That might be hard to understand, but that's a rule to protect you and your logic.

......From here on out, you can use all the twisted logic you want to rebuild the trick in this room. ......In other words, it's possible that you might think of a good idea partway through the fight.
......Normally, it's unfair to revise your plot partway through. In order for that to be acceptable, ......you need a world stopped in time, where everything happens at once, ......and where logic that you think of afterwards can counter your opponent's earlier moves.

Yeah I know that according to common logic this makes no sense, but this is how Ryuukishi explained it. Time is frozen however characters are still able to make moves.
I'd like to stress out again... this isn't a real world, this is fiction.

3) TIPS are not reliable. They just tell you how things appear, it's always been like that. Sometimes they give you some good information, but who knows? It's totally impossible to understand which is the hint and which is the red herring. So I wouldn't really rely on TIPS.

[Leafsnail]

Hmm... Battler should have retroactively drowned Erika before she even arrived on the island.

[Mercurius]

@Jan-Poo

1) I was always under the impression that Bern was the one who granted the Detective Authority to Erika? And I thought Bern had pretty much left Erika to her own devices due to her displeasure of her performance the last game. And how can Erika be a witch (or use witch abilities such as invoking red without the DA or the seal) if she represents the human side? Her red only came from the fact that she herself had murdered the survivors, and sealed three of the rooms. It didn't come from being either the detective or the witch of truth.

Basically, we were told in-game that Erika was to be taken as a normal human, who just happened to have superior memory and movement, not perfect. Which means she's still subject to the human side's weakness of being fallible. And the crucial point that I'm attacking is when Erika supposedly discovered Battler in the guest room. Since she is not the detective, I challenge her claim that she saw Battler's body on the bed in the guest room.

2) If Ryuukishi is going to disregard the common perception of 'time being stopped,' then that makes the concept of a 'logic error' very dubious. I don't think it can be explained away by saying it's 'fiction,' as the concept itself is rooted deeply in the logic of reality. Red text, detective authority, heck even magic itself is dependent on the common perception of logic and more specifically the nature of time (see: the game's clock). To make an exception to all that in just this instance would seem a very liberal use of the rules of a fictional world.

Erika(?) states that all moves would occur at the 'exact same time.' I can accept that the bathroom prank and Battler's escape / Kanon's rescue occurred at the exact same moment in time, and that Erika set the chain lock (which is the move I take most exception with) prior to making the proposal. So theoretically all moves can satisfy this condition, however the presentation of these moves seem to have almost zero consideration of that constraint.

3) Even ignoring the TIPS, which I already know are not 100% reliable, both Erika and the narration stated directly that Erika had little more time than to half-ass observe the bodies of the victims in their rooms. So yes, she (and Ryuukishi) lied. That in itself is fine as it's part and parcel of Umineko-verse. I just think this was a rather cheap lie compared to some of the more better laid trolls. There was absolutely no reason or hint given to think that Erika had enough time to do anything more than to quickly glance at each victim. Even more so since I am convinced it was done retroactively.

[Leafsnail]

The headcutting was probably retroactive, since there's no way Battler can show she wouldn't have ended up doing that if she had the tape beforehand... or something like that.

I found the "She didn't have enough time to verify the cause of death" extremely dubious, actually. Even on the first account of the murders we see when Krauss's group is breaking into the parlour, we're told that Rosa has a headwound and Maria is covered in blood. Erika could surely have at least taken a guess at the cause.

[Bluemail]

Sorry but...
# [Request: The six victims of the first twilight are where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva in the honored guest room, Kyrie in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria in the parlor, and you in the guest room!] I'll acknowledge that.

This means Battler must have been in the guest room at some point after the duct tape seals were placed (I think). So no avoiding the issue with no Battler in the room.

About the episode in general, I think there was a lot more potential in the concept of Beatrice finding the how she can become her old self, and Ryukishi could have pulled something more about the presence of two Beatrices. It almost felt like he had written too much and had to cut something from the "Dawn of the Golden Witch" (which I interpreted as the story of Beatrice becoming who she was). It happened however, but it was quite confusing anyway.
I gotta read the part where she disappears after Shannon and Kanon's duel and her talk with Kanon. I think I didn't quite catch everything on first read.

So Beatrice is Battler's ideal woman?
And I so want to see Beatrice crashing the wedding animated.
And somehow Beato calling Battler Battler-san is really cute.

[Jan-Poo]

@mercurius

1) Apparently detective authority isn't something that was given to Erika by Bern. It's not like Erika was deprived of it by Bern, it was Erika herself that give it up following Bern's command.

Erika is a witch the same way Ange was a witch. There's nothing that prevents a witch from playing on the human side. Witches do not have absolutely reliable perspective, detectives do.
So the fact that Erika is a witch doesn't mean at all that she can't be subjected to lies.
Basically for Erika being a witch only means that she can use red from things that are 99% correct. This is a witch's privilege.
The seals are meant to reach that 99% certainty, and this is a detective's privilege.


3) Actually the same applies to EP5. There is absolutely no reasonable time in which she could have placed all the seals around the guesthouse and dried her hairs before anyone would notice.

[LaplaceNoMa]

In that scene where Kyrie confesses to Jessica... why does she keep mentioning 18 years instead of 12?

[Mercurius]

I think Bluemail as echoed my own thoughts that Battler was indeed in the guest room (although possibly not on the bed) at the time of Erika's inspection, due to Battler's red acknowledgment. It's just that Erika herself could not confirm Battler's location without Battler-trice's Red.

1) Again, I think any theory that diminishes the red truth from being 100% true should be highly suspect. If the seals only had 99% certainty, and there was a 1% chance that someone could forge Erika's signature, or someone is capable of removing and reapplying the seal without breaking it, then Erika would not have been able to use the red. If that really was the case, then all seals at all times should be subject to being not 100% certain. And the red text itself in all cases guaranteed that the seals did their job and were not tampered with.

3) Ok, after going through several possible counter-arguments, I agree that the two events are similar. My thought process was that Erika's superhuman actions in EP5 were supported in part by the detective's authority (it's probably the other way around). I am just married to the idea that the absence of the Detective's Authority was presented as a huge distinction between EP5 and EP6, but then was later summarily glossed over as an almost trivial difference.

[Thunder Book]

She didn't mean 18 years ago from the present Laplace.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Originally Posted by Thunder Book

She didn't mean 18 years ago from the present Laplace.

Well... But Asumu have died when Battler was 12 anyway, and Kyrie has waited for her to die for onyl 12 years, not 18, right?