Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Jazzrat]

Ranka and Sheryl is like the opposite spectrum of an anime girl. Ranka is the cute and shy young girl while Sheryl is the feisty, outgoing and umm... developed girl.

Both camp have their share of fans.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

Ranka and Sheryl is like the opposite spectrum of an anime girl. Ranka is the cute and shy young girl while Sheryl is the feisty, outgoing and umm... developed girl.

Both camp have their share of fans.

Except as far as Ranka fans are concerned in Japan... ... ...

The less we know, the better.

- Tak

[Tabris]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I prefer Sheryl.

Just saying that Ranka was the adorable sister type character.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Just saying that Ranka was the adorable sister type character.

Adorable sister type does not long-term relationship make!

Considering their relationship, it was short-lived and a good thing Alto moved on with someone far far far more reliable. Really, what does Ranka offer in a stable relationship? Plus, having her brothers as in laws is just too much even for Alto to handle.

- Tak (Yoda... leave me...)

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Oh, don't get me wrong, I prefer Sheryl.

Just saying that Ranka was the adorable sister type character.

I said it before. I actually didn't believe that Ranka is a part of the triangle at first. There was even a time during the first episode that I believed the second person was Cathy

Ranka always seemed like a distant possibility. She ended up as a sister type character for the rest 24 episodes for me. She had her ups and downs in my judgement and at some point I even tried to believe she'll become a competition for Sheryl. Oh the painful reality.

[Radik]

Right, I'm just going to reply to TwilightHack and show my view of things. Don't fear, since I don't see what more I could add this is probably my final post on the matter:

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Here we can see Alto's purple trail flying up from behind Quarter. Hopefully you can distinguish Battle Frontier from Quarter.

Hopefully, you notice the purple trail (especially in the frames following this one) shows that the VF isn't heading towards Battle Frontier but rather sets it on a course directly in between BF and Quarter. For Alto to show up right next to Sheryl's stage would mean he had to change that course, but there's no reason to believe he did. In fact, it makes a lot more sense to assume he just stayed on that course.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

And here we have the appearance of Sheryl on Ranka's screen. Take note Battle Frontier is on Ranka's right.

Also take note of the distance to BF compared to the screen above. Something doesn't add up, since Battle Frontier shouldn't be anywhere near that close to Quarter. Ranka then looks to the right, at Sheryl's stage.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Now we have Ranka appearing on Sheryl's screen, to her left. And look! We also have Alto popping up in Gerwalk form in-between Frontier and Quarter!

Notice you can see Ranka standing on the stage, which again shows Quarter isn't that far away. We also know that Ranka is still looking at Sheryl's stage. Now explain to me how Ranka could possibly not have seen Alto in the above screenshot. If you have to, go back to the previous screenshot and then imagine Alto flying in front of Battle Frontier. There's simply no way she could not have seen the VF at that point.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

And now we have Alto in Battleroid mode. Take special note of the positioning of the VF's legs and body facing towards Sheryl. Also take not of what Ranka is doing... oblivious? I think so. She's already looking straight forward before the salute even happened.

You skipped the part where both Sheryl and Ranka turn their head on the exact same moment (and even in sync) as Alto passes by. By saying Ranka didn't see the VF, I'm supposed to assume this is just a coincidence.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Note: Unless the animation team messed up the distance, depth perception in the scene... Given the size of the Battle Frontier, Quarter and Alto's VF... it'd impossible for Alto's VF to remain that visibly large to both crafts if he were actually floating in the between Frontier and Quarter.

They did mess up.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

And the salute. Alto's VF head is turned to the left, which happens to be the side facing Sheryl. Also, take a look at the gif forgottendiary so graciously provided us. Alto doesn't shift around extra to turn to Ranka.

I have to disagree on the VF head being turned to the left, the VF isn't looking to either side and simply looks in front of it. If Alto wanted to salute Sheryl only, then he'd turn towards her.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Here we have the Sheryl and Ranka frame. Sheryl's background shows a partial space battle showing us that she's looking to her left, presumably at Alto due to the scene prior. Now Ranka, her background is the Quarter's bridge meaning she had already been looking directly ahead.

Honestly, how could Ranka have seen something to her far right if she'd been looking straight forward since Alto went Battleroid.

Like I said above, she did already see the VF when she was looking at Battle Frontier. She simply didn't salute and continued with her song.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Take into consideration that the battle is straight in front of them.. if Alto were already floating in the middle to salute both, he'd just fly straight forward. Instead he flew away while drifting to his left... this hints to us that he had to turn a little to get back into the center of the fight... it also implies that he had been close to something on his left, our right.

Who just happened to be on the Alto's left when he was saluting... and then who was on the right when he was flying away? It was Battle Frontier and Sheryl.

Now you're not only assuming the BF is in the exact center of the fight, but you're also assuming Alto is dumb enough to charge in the middle of the battle without joining up with the rest of the squad. He only reappears after Galaxy is destroyed together with Ozma and Klan, which means he first joined up with them.

That is all.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by Tak

What kind? Danish the people, or Danish the cupcake?

- Tak

I LOL'd!

Yep she's pretty sweet and flaky... I guess she could be either.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Kawamori will have a good laugh reading this thread. Honestly, let's wait for the movie to come out and then we can conclusively say anything.

The salute, the earring and other stuff is beaten to death, it is not going to awake anytime soon.

(run from incoming rounds)

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by Radik

...

They did mess up.

Not really picking on you, but this keeps coming up as a mistake when it wasn't. The distance between the Quarter and Battle 25 wasn't a "mess up", it was artistic license. From a purely techincal perspective, the proximity and size of Quarter compared to Battle 25, there is almost no way for this layout to have occurred. This is a show with EXTENSIVE and carefully planned 3D animation. 3D animation has to be forced in an agressive way to get things to appear in the "wrong place", once you establish the positions of objects in the shots. (as was done in the shot where we see Alto fly over to Battle 25 From Quarter... and based on what we've seen of Quarter launching VF's, even this shot was a compromise...) THIS sort of thing doesn't happen accidentally. It is carefully choreographed. The animators have to "cheat the shot" to make something like this even happen.

The staff wanted to keep BOTH girls IN the shot to show the inclusiveness, yet Alto DOES turn more towards Sheryl in order to acknowledge her, since he'd just "completed his mission" to save Ranka as Sheryl admonished him to. Having JUST left Ranka a short time before, he needed to close the loop with Sheryl and saluted HER. BUT by having Ranka present in the shot, the director is not EXCLUDING her from the relationship.

If you have shipper goggles on, you can make the claim it was bolstering your Sheryl ship, but if Kawamori were wanting to throw it off balance again, it would have been easier and cheaper to put generic battle footage behind Alto instead of the Quarter bridge with the tiny Ranka on it. (If the shot were technically correct, at best the whole of Quarter would have appeared a little larger than the size of Alto's VF in the right section of the screen, behind Alto.) In the reverse shot from the Quarter bridge, Sheryl salutes Alto to show she GOT his message, and Ranka turns her back to do her job, because SHE wasn't the one being acknowledged by Alto. They had said their goodbyes already.

There was no "mess up" in the proximity of the Quarter to the Battle 25. It HAD to be done that way by plan in order to keep the balance and not overplay one relationship over the other. If it had, they couldn't have had Alto choose the sky over both girls at the end. People may not be satisfied with this reality, but from a pure animation direction to production POV, that's what was going on.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tabris

I know it's all a bit of fun, but I think you're looking a little be too deeply into things...just a little

As long as some Ranka shippers claim obvious bullshit, devoid of all facts, it´s up to us to try to make them see reality.

Originally Posted by Tabris

Trust me, it may seem like the worst thing ever, but after 18 or so episodes of it, you'll end up singing along with Basara.

Stockholm syndrome. It´s the only explanation. ^^


*edit* And now I am <facepalming> again. God, people like Radik must be claiming that the sky is yellow.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Radik

Right, I'm just going to reply to TwilightHack and show my view of things. Don't fear, since I don't see what more I could add this is probably my final post on the matter:

And since you replied to me, I'll reply back.

Hopefully, you notice the purple trail (especially in the frames following this one) shows that the VF isn't heading towards Battle Frontier but rather sets it on a course directly in between BF and Quarter. For Alto to show up right next to Sheryl's stage would mean he had to change that course, but there's no reason to believe he did. In fact, it makes a lot more sense to assume he just stayed on that course.

The screen shots I posted is the 2nd to the last frame before it cuts out so we can't be definite of his path. Therefore we can only draw assumptions from what we get in the moments after.

But to make it clear, Alto was gliding down past Frontier's shoulder, drifting right, when it cut out. This as opposed to flying just straight forward.

Also take note of the distance to BF compared to the screen above. Something doesn't add up, since Battle Frontier shouldn't be anywhere near that close to Quarter. Ranka then looks to the right, at Sheryl's stage.

I can't dispute if its an animation inconsistency because I'm not the animator.

Edit: Mughi offered some good insight.

Notice you can see Ranka standing on the stage, which again shows Quarter isn't that far away. We also know that Ranka is still looking at Sheryl's stage. Now explain to me how Ranka could possibly not have seen Alto in the above screenshot. If you have to, go back to the previous screenshot and then imagine Alto flying in front of Battle Frontier. There's simply no way she could not have seen the VF at that point.

I don't dispute that Ranka may have seen the VF, I dispute that Ranka saw the salute. There's a big difference between the two.

You skipped the part where both Sheryl and Ranka turn their head on the exact same moment (and even in sync) as Alto passes by. By saying Ranka didn't see the VF, I'm supposed to assume this is just a coincidence.

I did not skip anything. In order for Ranka to have seen Alto's salute she would still need to be facing and looking towards Sheryl... which she clearly is not.

And yes, I do believe it was by coincidence they both looked forward at the same time. It is clear when watching the ep 25 that while Sheryl is clearly fixated on Alto while Ranka is off doing her own thing (singing, closed eyes, hand motion, turning away).

Edit: Mughi has a really good explanation for such.

They did mess up.

Well I can't contest the point either way because I don't know the minds of the animators. So I can only go by what I see and will say that Alto is bigger in Sheryl's scene therefore closer to Sheryl.

Also, for future reference, the "they did mess up" makes for the weakest defense.

Edit: Again Mughi has a really good explanation for such.

I have to disagree on the VF head being turned to the left, the VF isn't looking to either side and simply looks in front of it. If Alto wanted to salute Sheryl only, then he'd turn towards her.

If you can't see that his head is turned towards Sheryl, then I can't help you.

Also I believe you just happened to overlook my comment about taking note of the the VF's leg positioning... which also shows us Alto is facing more towards Sheryl.

Like I said above, she did already see the VF when she was looking at Battle Frontier. She simply didn't salute and continued with her song.

And like I said, I don't dispute she saw the VF. I dispute she saw the salute. In order for Ranka to have seen the salute with her positioning, she'd need eyes on the side of her head.

Why? Again, Ranka turned away from Alto and Sheryl and looked forward before the salute happened.

Now you're not only assuming the BF is in the exact center of the fight, but you're also assuming Alto is dumb enough to charge in the middle of the battle without joining up with the rest of the squad. He only reappears after Galaxy is destroyed together with Ozma and Klan, which means he first joined up with them.

The entire fight BF has been right in front of Island 1, which is heading straight for the Queen and the spiral. That being said it's not too much to assume they're in the middle of the entire fight.

I'm not assuming Alto is dumb enough to charge into battle alone, but we do know that from the position they reappeared they had been fighting relatively close to Frontier and Quarter.

But arguing the positioning is Battle Frontier is besides the point. The main point is that he's flying away, away from Battle Frontier and Sheryl.

That is all.

Yes truly that is all.

Edit: @Mughi that was actually a nice analysis of the situation. Though I don't fully agree on some points (blame ship opinions for such)... it offers a fresh view on things.

Also, as much as I hate to take a neutral opinion and turn it towards a ship. Wouldn't Ranka's turning away because it was "none of her business" Ranka acknowledging Alto and Sheryl's close relationship?

[justavisitor]

A Question:

If Ranka cannot see the salute, why the director bother showing us Sheryl saluting in the screen? Just show a direct Sheryl respond without Ranka in it would get the job done

Now I don't even know how many gesture Alto is making, and Ranka seems she gives a nod when Sheryl salutes back too...I don't know if Ranka gives a nod because of Alto or Music

Besides, I don't know if Japanese audience would analyze it frame by frame (it's still a TV show after all) Now all the audience sees Alto making one/two gesture, Sheryl responds salute and Ranka gives a nod (music or Alto) at the same time during this TV show It would be natural for ppl to assume both see Alto at the same time. Right??

In summary, thanks to the power of internet, we are thinking too much about it lol...Just to watch it like you are watching in TV without stopping frame by frame prehaps would give ppl another perspective

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Besides, I don't know if Japanese audience would analyze it frame by frame (it's still a TV show after all) Now all the audience sees Alto making one/two gesture, Sheryl responds salute and Ranka gives a nod (music or Alto) at the same time during this TV show It would be natural for ppl to assume both see Alto at the same time. Right??

If you want the Japanese reaction, its actually not that complicated. Or should I say, nowhere near as complicated as we are making it out to be. Older fans on the BBS spotted the Misa homage right away, and that was that. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody even bothered including Ranka into the equation, we are the only ones doing it, really.

Besides, both Minmei and Misa were also present when Hikaru saluted Misa, and he just was not saluting Minmei, even when they were both facing him directly. In this case, Alto faced Sheryl, not Ranka. Its already been said and done, and I really don't know how much more we are going to beat this topic to death. Its getting silly.

- Tak

[forgottendiary]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

A Question:

If Ranka cannot see the salute, why the director bother showing us Sheryl saluting in the screen? Just show a direct Sheryl respond without Ranka in it would get the job done

Now I don't even know how many gesture Alto is making, and Ranka seems she gives a nod when Sheryl salutes back too...I don't know if Ranka gives a nod because of Alto or Music

For that, I shall point you here:

Originally Posted by Mughi

The staff wanted to keep BOTH girls IN the shot to show the inclusiveness, yet Alto DOES turn more towards Sheryl in order to acknowledge her, since he'd just "completed his mission" to save Ranka as Sheryl admonished him to. Having JUST left Ranka a short time before, he needed to close the loop with Sheryl and saluted HER. BUT by having Ranka present in the shot, the director is not EXCLUDING her from the relationship.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

In summary, thanks to the power of internet, we are thinking too much about it lol...Just to watch it like you are watching in TV without stopping frame by frame prehaps would give ppl another perspective

You can watch it however you fancy. You don't have to think, really. You can leave that to others who are bothered to exercise their mental capacities ranging from pure sense to pure delusion.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

A Question:

If Ranka cannot see the salute, why the director bother showing us Sheryl saluting in the screen? Just show a direct Sheryl respond without Ranka in it would get the job done

To troll us and add to the air indecisiveness. Also, in the original scene Minmei was in the shot as well.. even Hikaru's salute if it wasn't meant for her.

Now I don't even know how many gesture Alto is making, and Ranka seems she gives a nod when Sheryl salutes back too...I don't know if Ranka gives a nod because of Alto or Music

Alto salutes once and its was because of the music. In order to see the salute, she'd need eyes on the side of her head.

Besides, I don't know if Japanese audience would analyze it frame by frame (it's still a TV show after all) Now all the audience sees Alto making one/two gesture, Sheryl responds salute and Ranka gives a nod (music or Alto) at the same time during this TV show It would be natural for ppl to assume both see Alto at the same time. Right??

If anything Japanese fans are more fanatical than we are.

I don't get this 1/2 gesture you're talking about... but again, Ranka, facing the direction she is, would need eyes on the side of her head.

In summary, thanks to the power of internet, we are thinking too much about it lol...Just to watch it like you are watching in TV without stopping frame by frame prehaps would give ppl another perspective

Not quite, the homage is there between Sheryl and Alto. People just don't want to see it. Downplaying a homage that pays clear homage to the original couple of Macross (Hikaru x Misa) will ALWAYS draw fire.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

If anything Japanese fans are more fanatical than we are.

They certainly are, although as of right now, nobody is making this situation complicated. They noticed its a Misa/Hikaru homage, and left it at that. I have not seen a single post, a blog or an article analyzing it frame by frame. It is only we are really trying to confuse ourselves in a very simple situation.

- Tak

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Tak

They certainly are, although as of right now, nobody is making this situation complicated. They noticed its a Misa/Hikaru homage, and left it at that. I have not seen a single post, a blog or an article analyzing it frame by frame. It is only we are really trying to confuse ourselves in a very simple situation.

- Tak

Yes it is a very simple situation... and here the many are forced to explain it in an even simpler way.

[justavisitor]

Originally Posted by forgottendiary

For that, I shall point you here:

Fine, I am just stating that for the audiences who only sees this once in TV, it's really easy/natural to assume that both girls see Alto since they are both in the scene (Sheryl responding salute, Ranka gives a nod). (Now I am not suggesting watching frame by frame would give ppl a different answer, I am not going to that mess lol)

I know ppl would recongize the salute homepage immediately, but I doubt ppl watching in TV would say that Ranka is looking at the wrong direction, or knowing the Alto is closer in Fronter than Quarter etc. I think ppl see it in TV would think Alto flying in the middle

That's all

Offtopic, forgottendiary, since you are online. I am new to here, are you the one who made gif request?? Did you see my request??

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Fine, I am just stating that for the audiences who only sees this once in TV, it's really easy/natural to assume that both girls see Alto since they are both in the scene (Sheryl responding salute, Ranka gives a nod). (Now I am not suggesting watching frame by frame would give ppl a different answer, I am not going to that mess lol)

I know ppl would recongize the salute homepage immediately, but I doubt ppl watching in TV would say that Ranka is looking at the wrong direction, or knowing the Alto is closer in Fronter than Quarter etc. I think ppl see it in TV would think Alto flying in the middle

That's all

Only a retard or blind person would not see it, sorry.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Only a retard or blind person would not see it, sorry.

That was harsh

- Tak