[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Peroyasha

I recall the same reason Rias mentioned. He kinda had to since he moved back with his father. But then seeing that Ange didn't have to come, then maybe not...? (although she is ill and young).

I was mostly talking about that we don't know why he had to come to the island.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason they were able to tell it's Battler was by the way he talks, right?

[nagare]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

I was mostly talking about that we don't know why he had to come to the island.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason they were able to tell it's Battler was by the way he talks, right?

Spoiler:

I don't recall if that's the only reason.
I need to reread EP 01 especially Jessica's and George's reactions.
But that would be a really cool twist. Something like Battler isn't Battler, but was actually Kyrie's "dead" son who would have been the same age as Battler if he was still alive.

I don't see many things that point in the direction of a fake "Battler" but it's an interesting idea.

[Rias]

@Peroyasha
The 07151128 thing was refering to how 0715 was Battler's birthday, and 1128 might be suggesting someone else's brithday which lead to a bunch of weird speculations that perhaps Battler was the real culprit, or perhaps Battler was fake. Of course, the Matthew theory is also intresting but isn't the point at the moment

Spoiler for Battler's identity:

I think it's a bunch of assumptions. In short, we know that Battler is Battler becuase Rudolph and Kyrie recognizes him as Battler.

We know that after Asumu died, Rudolph remarried, and Battler went to live with Asumu's parents. However, it's unknown as to why he went to live with his grandparents instead. Then Asumu's parents died, and Battler went back to live with Rudolph as he doesn't have much of a choice.

The reason why he attends the annual meeting could be just that he had to, same reason as everyone who shows up. When you parents go, you have to go. Enje was just sick so she misses out. However, it's unknown why he didn't attend during the 6 years when he was living with his grandparents, as he was still part of Ushinomiya family.

[k//eternal]

Okay, next... does anyone remember exactly what sorts of things Beatrice excludes when she talks about closed rooms?

Doors locked, windows locked, no hidden passages, etc., yes? Does the word used for "passages" imply a hallway like the English word? Does she state in red there is no way in or out at all?

Someone mentioned just now that the painting might flip to reveal something, and I'm wondering if maybe a trick wall is actually not excluded.

[Turtleen]

Spoiler for :

Originally Posted by rias

We know that after Asumu died, Rudolph remarried, and Battler went to live with Asumu's parents. However, it's unknown as to why he went to live with his grandparents instead. Then Asumu's parents died, and Battler went back to live with Rudolph as he doesn't have much of a choice.

The reason why he attends the annual meeting could be just that he had to, same reason as everyone who shows up. When you parents go, you have to go. Enje was just sick so she misses out. However, it's unknown why he didn't attend during the 6 years when he was living with his grandparents, as he was still part of Ushinomiya family.

Spoiler for :

I assumed he went to live with Asumu's parents because he was angry that Rudolph remarried so soon after Asumu's death.
Probably went back to the family meetings for a few reasons, he had to because Rudolph and Kyrie were, Kinzo's dying, and he might have wanted to see his cousins after so many years.
I think if he was living with Asumu's parents it would make sense not to go during those years. He didn't have parents to drag him along, and he was probably angry with Rudolph so if he went, he'd have to face his dad. Something like that.

[Klashikari]

Yes, Beatrice defined her "closed room" definition in Episode 2, stating that a "closed room" doesn't have any way out except the Door and the windows, but both are locked, the former with a key, the second from the inside.
She made it clear that there is no concealed way to get out or in.

@turtleen: that is correct: he was angry at Rudolf because he was jumping on the gun, immediately remarrying with Kyrie. This is stated in episode 1 and the tips.
The reason why he came back was because his grandparents died and there isn't much option as result.

I really think there is absolutely nothing wrong with Battler's background.

[chronotrig]

Actually, Beatrice only completed her closed room definition at the beginning of episode 3. In episode 2, she did define several of the individual parts of a closed room, but she only used the red on a room by room basis, and some of her closed room rules don't apply to all of the supposedly closed rooms.

Spoiler for episode 3 closed rooms:

At the beginning of Beato's and Battler's fight in episode 3, she creates 'Beatrice's closed room definition', which covers almost everything imaginable.
Now, not only is it completely impossible for someone to enter the room from the outside when it is locked by any means without a key, but it is also impossible for them to interfere with the inside of the room from the outside by any means, including radio waves (or anything like it), the phone line, and obvious things like sticking a fish line through the door and strangling people (well, Battler thought that one was obvious anyways).

Battler does make Beato admit that a knock on the door or someone's voice could reach inside the room, forcing her to say that it isn't impossible for information to travel between the inside and the outside of the room, but she eliminates that as the cause of death.

But the really annoying part in episode 3 is Battler's and Beato's battle over the first twilight.
Because they spend about 5 minutes talking about this definition of a closed room, and Beato never says any place is a closed room in red. In fact, it's Virgilia that gives Battler a lot of his info, and he never questions anything she says.

Just for the record, here is a list of all the red text that effects these closed rooms, at least from ep3.

There are less than 19 people on this Rokkenjima.
This might not actually count, you can find some theories on it earlier in the forum.
There are only 5 master keys, one for each servant.
Same as the last game.
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal. No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.
This line by itself isn't really important unless you already have a closed room.
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and Shannon are dead!
This is the first time we've heard that any one of the 18 has died in red other than Jessica and Kanon.
There is no one hiding in the six rooms!
Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms.
The 6 people died instantly!
'Instantly' just means that they couldn't do anything after they were attacked and before they died.
The 6 people were not killed by a trap.
None of the 6 people committed suicide!

And since there's no guarantee that the red from ep2 still applies in ep3, if there was a secret passage in any one of these rooms, or even an unlocked door (e.g. boiler room), this isn't a closed room murder at all.

Oh, and in addition, here is a list of the rooms where secret passages were denied in red.
Jessica's room, the servants room, Natsuhi's room, hey, that's all, actually...
If you read between the lines for the chapel, she only says that the six parents didn't go through a secret passage, not that one doesn't exist.
And in the parlor, she only says that
1. the only key other than the master key is locked in the servants room and
2. therefore, it is impossible to unlock the room without a master key.

Of course, if there was a secret passage, you probably wouldn't need one of the normal keys to unlock it.

[Goose Boy]

Mmm.... i have been told about the statements about nanjo´s murder and ( for me ) it is more important than the first twilight...

Spoiler for Nanjo´s murder:

i have been told that beato said "When nanjo´s murder happener, all the people except eva battler and jessica are dead", she said that exactly? also the no tramps.. animals... accidents... and no jessica... means that eva did it with battler.... did ( beato ) ever said SPECIFICALLY that " kinzo, kanon, shannon, gohda, genji, kumazawa, maria, rosa, kyrie, rudolf, hideyoshi, krauss, natsuhi and george are DEAD when nanjo is killed... "?

[Klashikari]

She named all humans that were shown in episode 3, named separately and stated all except eva, jessica and battler, were dead.
There is no way to claim any of them didn't die.

However, it doesn't mean they died at the given time they have been shown dead. But they are definitely dead by the time Nanjo got killed.

[theacefrehley]

The deaths are only confirmed with red text way after Nanjo was killed, not during the murder.
So there are a lot of suspects left besides Jessica, Battler and Eva (and the first 6 ones, of course).

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for last closed room:

Yeah ace, but depending on how you read the red text and how much you trust the white text that comes along with it to set the stage (like how Beatrice defines terms), Eva-Beatrice could be referring to the state of things at the moment Nanjo was killed.

She follows her red text list of dead people with the line: "So, you understand that when the last victim, Nanjo, died, only Battler, Eva and Jessica were alive, don't you?"

Of course, there's plenty of reason to doubt this, but even if it is talking about the moment Nanjo died, it could still work. In other words, if the murderer died after delivering the fatal wound, but before Nanjo was completely dead, then no matter what time this red text refers to, it still doesn't make this closed room impossible.

And anyways, if the murderer was one of the 18, we know that they either died just a few minutes after Nanjo, or sometime before that.

[natyo2]

I'd like to know what 'knox' means, I didn't play EP3 yet but I saw it was in the OP "No dine, No knox"...; searched through the thread too but had no results.
Thanks

[Klashikari]

Actually, it isn't a word and the seemly "engrish" text makes sense only starting from episode 2.
In fact, Knox, Dine and Fair are the names of detective mystery authors:
Ronald Knox, and S.S. Van Dine (Willard Huntington Wright) and A.A. Fair (Erle Stanley Gardner)

[natyo2]

Ok, thanks.

[Goose Boy]

まだあたらしいうみねこのなく頃にのニウスがないか

[blitz1/2]

According to the pattern, are we going to have a new ep on dec?

[chronotrig]

Episode 4 will come out sometime during the winter Comiket, which starts December 28, I believe.
That's assuming Ryuukishi finishes it on time...It sounds like he's behind schedule, but he says ep4 will be longer and will take a very different approach from any of the other Umineko games.

Edit:
And, just now, Ryuukishi posted in his journal saying that he's got a bad fever...damn

[hchuang]

I am sad that the riddle was never solvable by the player to begin with. Though I've never attempted it because I was sure these riddle was going to have some part of the Japanese word play which is not possible without knowledge of Japanese.

[Larrave]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Actually, Beatrice only completed her closed room definition at the beginning of episode 3. In episode 2, she did define several of the individual parts of a closed room, but she only used the red on a room by room basis, and some of her closed room rules don't apply to all of the supposedly closed rooms.

Spoiler for episode 3 closed rooms:

At the beginning of Beato's and Battler's fight in episode 3, she creates 'Beatrice's closed room definition', which covers almost everything imaginable.
Now, not only is it completely impossible for someone to enter the room from the outside when it is locked by any means without a key, but it is also impossible for them to interfere with the inside of the room from the outside by any means, including radio waves (or anything like it), the phone line, and obvious things like sticking a fish line through the door and strangling people (well, Battler thought that one was obvious anyways).

Battler does make Beato admit that a knock on the door or someone's voice could reach inside the room, forcing her to say that it isn't impossible for information to travel between the inside and the outside of the room, but she eliminates that as the cause of death.

But the really annoying part in episode 3 is Battler's and Beato's battle over the first twilight.
Because they spend about 5 minutes talking about this definition of a closed room, and Beato never says any place is a closed room in red. In fact, it's Virgilia that gives Battler a lot of his info, and he never questions anything she says.

Just for the record, here is a list of all the red text that effects these closed rooms, at least from ep3.

There are less than 19 people on this Rokkenjima.
This might not actually count, you can find some theories on it earlier in the forum.
There are only 5 master keys, one for each servant.
Same as the last game.
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal. No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.
This line by itself isn't really important unless you already have a closed room.
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and Shannon are dead!
This is the first time we've heard that any one of the 18 has died in red other than Jessica and Kanon.
There is no one hiding in the six rooms!
Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms.
The 6 people died instantly!
'Instantly' just means that they couldn't do anything after they were attacked and before they died.
The 6 people were not killed by a trap.
None of the 6 people committed suicide!

And since there's no guarantee that the red from ep2 still applies in ep3, if there was a secret passage in any one of these rooms, or even an unlocked door (e.g. boiler room), this isn't a closed room murder at all.

Oh, and in addition, here is a list of the rooms where secret passages were denied in red.
Jessica's room, the servants room, Natsuhi's room, hey, that's all, actually...
If you read between the lines for the chapel, she only says that the six parents didn't go through a secret passage, not that one doesn't exist.
And in the parlor, she only says that
1. the only key other than the master key is locked in the servants room and
2. therefore, it is impossible to unlock the room without a master key.

Of course, if there was a secret passage, you probably wouldn't need one of the normal keys to unlock it.

I am sorry if this question appeared already but can you explain the recite in red beatrice did:6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and Shannon are dead!
Whats the meaning of this?Neither did she list 6 people in summarize nor was it clear since Shannon was titled twice.Explain it to me please=).
However i agree that Beatrice is tricking Battler alot with the red text, which she more likely invented to make him life harder than easier, since she can do any tricky wordorder to make him believe something, which though might literally be correct but from battlers interpretation might poison him in because of a different meaning.

[Proto]

On the translation she mentioned everyone there (including the missing Kumasawa in the quote) except for Godah. Was this omission also in the original text?