|
View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 58 | 41.13% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 47 | 33.33% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 23 | 16.31% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 9 | 6.38% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 2.13% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.71% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
2011-02-21, 02:11 | Link #501 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-02-21, 02:21 | Link #503 | ||
This was meaningless
Scanlator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Not on this site no more.
Age: 36
|
There is a moral disconnect here between the perpetrator(s) of an action and the victim(s) of the action. Thanks to your guys' new "legal team" defense, I remembered this. The people you argue against most of the time seem to view QB from the perspective of the MGs--the supposed "victims" in this case,--and empathize with those characters through their inner turmoil, surprise revelations, and setbacks.
Spoiler for Sisko quotes:
I'm quite sure Sisko would be seen as evil by these Romulans. Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler for examples:
Do you people who defend QB allow the characters to see QB as evil, or do you need them to use some equivalent of evil when describing QB to allow that? Last edited by Decagon; 2011-02-21 at 02:33. |
||
2011-02-21, 02:33 | Link #505 |
~Official Slacker~
Author
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
|
More misery is spread around then just fighting witches, there are emotional pains of the wish you made (examples include Sayaka's wish, and Kyoko's wish) and the fact you might fight other magical girls for Grief Seeds, so you don't exactly have a partner and feel lonely (example includes Mami)
__________________
|
2011-02-21, 02:44 | Link #506 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Quote:
I shall not argue that becoming a magical girl does not suck. It does. But postulating that the miracles are specifically crafted just to make the girls miserable is kinda pushing it. |
|
2011-02-21, 02:48 | Link #507 | |
~Official Slacker~
Author
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2011-02-21, 02:50 | Link #508 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
|
Quote:
We're not talking about the misery from fighting witches themselves. We're talking about the misery that results from those wishes being made. All wishes have been ironically ended up in the WORST CASE possible or close to it. There were no mixed results, but each wish always ended up with their wish backfiring completely on them. 1)Mami wish: wanted to live Outcome: She lived a life of isolation and loneliness. Having no time for friends, herself, or even a crush due to fighting witches, she confesses to Madoka that her wish to live and consequential duty to becoming a magical girl was something she deeply regrets 2)Kyoko: Wished for people to listen to her father Outcome: Her "kind and loving" father snaps after learning the truth and proceeds to murder the family and commit suicide himself as well. 3)Sayaka: Wished for Kamijo's hand to be healed. Outcome: Unexpectedly, despite being Sayaka's childhood friend, and being discharged from the hospital Kamijo did not bother to tell Sayaka about such a joyous occasion and has seem to completely forgot about her, completely engrossed with his violin. Quote:
I really hope to god that you are just pulling our leg with this. |
||
2011-02-21, 03:03 | Link #509 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Quote:
What if after their wish is granted, they did not become a magical girl. 1. Mami: she survives! And she has time for friends, herself, and a crush! 2. Sayaka: Kamijyo's hand is healed! Now she can properly confess to him without reservation! See that in case of both of these girls, the direct cause of their misery is being a magical girl rather than some malicious wish-granting. With Mami having no time to socialize properly and Sayaka having reservations due to her "zombie" status. Also, note that Mami herself said that she doesn't regret her wish. That being a magical girl sucks grand time, but sure still a whole lot better alternative than dying. Last edited by Scrooge McDuck; 2011-02-21 at 03:16. |
|
2011-02-21, 03:30 | Link #511 | ||||
Me at work
|
Quote:
Well Mami says they'd be dead and considering the minions were yelling in german "those are unknown flowers,lets cut them off" while holding scisors it doesn't seem they cared if they were MG or not Quote:
But really it seems to me all witches have their personalities so we can't judge all of them based on one. Quote:
Quote:
In the end (and what this episode showed) is that making a contract with QB is likely a bad idea,especially if you make a selfless wish,wether that makes him evil or not is not really what I care about anymore.
__________________
|
||||
2011-02-21, 03:31 | Link #512 | |
Supreme Ruler of Crowatia
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 33
|
Quote:
Mami says MGs can't date or have friends or do this or that but... she has enough time to go to school. Homura has the time to stalk Madoka/Sayaka, Kyoko has the time to play DDR. Mami was miserable because she didn't try. Sayaka is miserable because she doesn't think of herself as human which is all in her head (she still functions exactly the same as long as her gem is with her). Kyoko, well, she's lonely but I wouldn't say miserable. Homura doesn't seem miserable but time will tell what's really going on with her.
__________________
|
|
2011-02-21, 03:56 | Link #513 | |
Crossdressing Menmatic
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 30
|
Quote:
For me, it is not about how sad the Puella Magi is after they have been contracted, but how sad she is when Kyubey does the contract. Every girl Kyubey has turned into a Puella Magi was miserable at the time of their contraction. Kyoko (father killed whole family, including himself), Sayaka (love interest just about gave up on life), Mami (car crash)... well, we don't know too much about Homura. Originally, I went farther than that and said that all contracted girls were miserable before Kyubey approached them. That would imply that Kyubey has some ability to sense sadness, and that Kyubey is evil for manipulating emotionally scarred girls into becoming his mindless zombies. That may be a step too far, but it is certainly what I think. The only good exceptions, as pointed out by Kyubey defense team, are Sayaka and Madoka. Sayaka wasn't that miserable when Kyubey met them. However, I have a response to that too. I think Kyubey was primarily interested in Madoka, and merely offered Sayaka the contract to influence Madoka's decision. Madoka is an exception because she has the potential to become an extremely powerful Puella Magi (as noted by Kyubey). Kyubey might have thought that by turning Sayaka, Madoka would follow. More evidence of this is seen in episode 5 when Kyubey suggests Madoka use her wish to stop Sayaka from fighting. And Sayaka turned out to be rather miserable anyway, come episode 4. Everything that has transpired fits... so far. |
|
2011-02-21, 04:10 | Link #514 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
|
Quote:
As for Sayaka..... really? You really believe in 100% of your being that Sayaka's main grief stems from the fact that she is a Magical girl? Just... really? If Kamijo didn't exist and she became a MG do you think she was still would be as miserable as she is now? Quote:
I take more faith in her true feelings when she confessed to Madoka than anything she said before that point as the biggest indication that she DID have regrets in becoming a magical girl. Quote:
And the whole confession in the end, it was to point out that being magical girl was not something to regret. But just saying made her feel all the much better, no oblique hidden meaning there. Quote:
What is with the people who blame the girls so much and QB so little, really makes me wonder why they are fixated on human faults we are suppose to be all prone to and yet be the harshest on them. It's like we don't have the ability to empathize or feel sympathy for them as fallible characters and instead use our own higher moral ground to say that it is there own fault for the situation they are in. Rather does no one sees that their lives became much worse, after they made a contract? |
||||
2011-02-21, 04:39 | Link #515 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Folsom, CA, USA
Age: 37
|
Quote:
Where did she say she was contemplating dying? Where did she say it was worse than death? She stated all the ways it sucked, but said neither of those. episode 3, starting at 4:39 and ending at 4:57 Quote:
|
||
2011-02-21, 04:42 | Link #516 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
As Scrooge McDuck said, who in their right mind would expect eternal happiness to come from any wish that wasn't specifically for eternal happiness? Quote:
I don't think that anybody here is ignoring or denying that Mami expressed considerable dissatisfaction with the magical girl role, and with her lonely life after she became a magical girl, but before she met Madoka and Sayaka. But even so, you've never heard an exasperated person say "There's nothing good about my job" or "There's nothing good about my life" during a bad day? Are people not allowed to exaggerate, use hyperbole, or vent? Not saying that's what Mami is doing here, but it is a possibility. Kyoko certainly doesn't seem to think that there's nothing good to being a MG, does she? Quote:
"And we can all have a party to celebrate you and me teaming up as magical girls!" - Mami to Madoka, emphasis mine "It's like my body is floating... This is the first time I've been this happy in a fight!" "I'm not afraid anymore!" "Because I'm not alone!" What was making Mami unhappy wasn't that she was a magical girl, per se. What was making her unhappy was that she was lonely, period. But being a magical girl didn't mean she had to stay alone. Honestly, some of the magical girls have made false assumptions about their own roles. Mami argued that a magical girl has no time for friends or dating boys. But then Sayaka clearly has time to go to school still, and still hang out with Madoka a lot. If Sayaka still has time for that (when I don't think that Mami was even going to school), then Mami had time for friends and dates. Quote:
Quote:
If Madoka had become a magical girl prior to Mami's final fight, maybe the two of them together would have overcome the witch, Mami would still be alive, and Mami would have gone to be very happy in a magical girl partnership with Madoka. Maybe Madoka was wrong for not becoming a magical girl sooner... It's a defensible argument. Quote:
Quote:
Sayaka might yet recover from this. We'll just have to wait and see. Quote:
Quote:
The fact that you feel you need to add in highly questionable qualifiers to your rhetorical questions, in order for them to have the effect that you want them to have, says a lot about how your position is not as strong as you think it is. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Practically all you do is go on and on and on about how bad this is for the magical girls, without considering the harm that they prevent by being magical girls. Quote:
Keep in mind that Kyoko doesn't seem to resent Kyubey for that aspect of the magical girl role at all. She simply became temporarily upset with him over the soul removed and placed in a gem aspect, something that she quickly came to comfortable terms with. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
For your analogy here to be valid, it would be necessary for experienced magical girls to talk about how evil or predatory Kyubey is. And even Homura, of all people, didn't say that. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that Homura's stated take on Kyubey doesn't seem to have shifted the views of the "Kyubey is evil" camp at all. If there's anybody who would want Madoka to perceive Kyubey as rotten and evil, it would be Homura. And yet, her stated take on Kyubey is not terribly dissimilar at all from the defense that Kaijo, I, and some others have made of him. Quote:
There is a difference between holding back pieces of information, and giving out false information. Both are deceptive, but the latter goes a bit father than the former. Quote:
Just because Kyubey knows what humans like (their wishes coming real!) and dislike (their soul being put into a gem) doesn't mean that he understands human morality. Heck, I can understand what another human being likes by simply observing what makes him or her happy, and yet I still might not fully grasp his or her personal moral code in some cases. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But I don't see why the perception of the victims of an action is the only one that should count. In the case of Sisko's actions, there were countless beneficiaries to them as well, which is why I (as an outside viewer, and not a Romulan directly negatively affected by Sisko) would not call Sisko "evil". Countless Federation and Klingon lives were likely saved by Sisko's actions, just like Kyubey's actions have saved some human lives by there being magical girls to combat the dangerous witches. Now, if Kyubey is playing both sides (i.e. intentionally creates both magical girls and witches), then he obviously gets no credit for saving lives that he endangered in the first place. I'm not saying otherwise. But until we have evidence of that (which we currently don't have at all, really), that's not something that can legitimately be factored into a discussion on him, imo. From what we know right now, Kyubey's actions have both victims (just as Sisko's did), but also results in saved lives (just as Sisko's did). Quote:
I doubt that Madoka views him as evil after what Homura said to her. I doubt that Kyoko views him as evil given how easily she got over the soul gem revelation. Sayaka perhaps does view him as evil, though. That I could easily see. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-02-21 at 05:03. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
2011-02-21, 04:42 | Link #517 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
|
No. The SOURCE of the girls' misery is what the MG system is doing to them. Some girls are able to cope better (Kyoko/Homura), some worse (Mami and particularly Sayaka). Of course you can argue that they agreed to become MGs, so it's their own responsibility. But to that I can only point out that so far, no MG seems to have known the full picture when she committed. And some had no choice in the first place.
If all girls would have really known and understood what they were getting into, THEN I'd able to accept this reasoning. But that's quite obviously not how things were. For none of them. |
2011-02-21, 05:08 | Link #519 |
Senior Member
Author
|
Kaijo may have objected to that, but I haven't. IIRC, I said that Kyubey is manipulative, but only on the level of a shady door-to-door salesman.
I don't mind people viewing Kyubey as a bit deceptive and/or a bit manipulative. I just think it's getting blown out of proportion.
__________________
|
2011-02-21, 05:15 | Link #520 | ||||||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
|
Quote:
Okay, then let me ask this way round: Do you think that Sayaka would have formed a contract if she had known that things would turn out like this? Do you think that Kyoko would have formed a contract if she had known that things would turn out like this? Or would both of them more likely think that their wish had backfired? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yet another unfortunate coincidence. Quote:
You're making it sound like being a MG is just like picking up a side job like delivering newspapers, and life goes on normally otherwise. I don't think this is accurate. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So, I'll agree with Homura for the time being: Don't become a MG. You'll lose everyone dear to you and be screwed over. Quote:
|
||||||||||||
Thread Tools | |
|
|