Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[whiteferrero]

i have a question! I've read the tips, pieces, q's and the poems. watched the anime, trying to find the manga, well anyway... i can't search this whole thread if the question's already been asked. anway...

my question:

Who was the Rena that the police said was spotted near the granaries?

I read in the Qs about Keiichi being covered by his friends in Tatarigoroshi for his absence at the festival, but what was the Hinamizawa credo that was mentioned?

Why is SAtoko freakishly strong? (She pushed keiichi to a wall, or when she throw em off the bridge)

What triggers Rina being killed and thrown in a river? What triggers her to appear at the Ryuguu ousehold? Is it just luck that it happens in some worlds and not all? Random event much?

Just to clear things up, the needle in the ohagi is a delusion by Keiichi right?

Finally, it seems the death of Rika does not cause an outbreak of hinamizawa syndrome, when she dies in Watanagashi-hen and Maekashi-hen, people from Hinamizawa even live past the year 2000. So I assume that this theory on the Queen Carrier's Death is false. But since people that move out of Hinamizawa g go crazy, I assume that the presence of the Queen Carrier is true, and it suppresses the disease. If it really supresses the disease wouldn't Rika's death cause an outbreak? Then perhaps Rika is not the Queen Carrier????? HELP!

[Annannith]

Originally Posted by whiteferrero

i have a question! I've read the tips, pieces, q's and the poems. watched the anime, trying to find the manga, well anyway... i can't search this whole thread if the question's already been asked. anway...

my question:

Who was the Rena that the police said was spotted near the granaries?

I read in the Qs about Keiichi being covered by his friends in Tatarigoroshi for his absence at the festival, but what was the Hinamizawa credo that was mentioned?

Why is SAtoko freakishly strong? (She pushed keiichi to a wall, or when she throw em off the bridge)

What triggers Rina being killed and thrown in a river? What triggers her to appear at the Ryuguu ousehold? Is it just luck that it happens in some worlds and not all? Random event much?

Just to clear things up, the needle in the ohagi is a delusion by Keiichi right?

Finally, it seems the death of Rika does not cause an outbreak of hinamizawa syndrome, when she dies in Watanagashi-hen and Maekashi-hen, people from Hinamizawa even live past the year 2000. So I assume that this theory on the Queen Carrier's Death is false. But since people that move out of Hinamizawa g go crazy, I assume that the presence of the Queen Carrier is true, and it suppresses the disease. If it really supresses the disease wouldn't Rika's death cause an outbreak? Then perhaps Rika is not the Queen Carrier????? HELP!

1: There was no Rena at the granaries, that was a piece of false information spread by the Sonozakis. Mion thought the police were after Rena as a suspect for Rina and Teppei's murder, and this way she was trying to protect Rena from the police.

2: The Hinamizawa credo is a slogan used during the Dam War to promote solidarity between the villagers. The basic idea is that if a Hinamizawan is being picked on, the other villagers must defend him or her.

3: Rina is going out with Mr. Ryuuguu in all worlds. In fact, that's probably one of the reasons Rena goes treasure hunting, since she feels uncomfortable around Rina and so she wants to spend time away from home. In some worlds Rina tries to steal a large sum of money from the yakuza, but she gets caught and killed for it (see this TIPS).

4: Yes. Mion and Rena just tried to play a prank on K1 by putting spicy sauce in one of the ohagis. Unfortunately for them, Keiichi was so paranoid by then that he interpreted the stinging sensation as a needle put in there as a punishment/warning for lying to his friends.

5: The Queen Carrier theory is false, and in fact Rena and Natsumi could live peacefully away from Hinamizawa for years. What triggered the Hinamizawa Syndrome in both of them was in fact a stressful situation (for Rena, it was her parents' divorce and the guilt for not being able to avoid it; for Natsumi, it was the "witch hunt" against Hinamizawans that happened all across Japan after the Great Hinamizawa Disaster).

[Eryops]

The Hinamizawa Syndrome makes little sense from a biological point of view. Of course, Ryukishi07 tailored it to fit with his story, so I suppose we can't expect too much from that. He never really specifies what it is even after Irie detects it in the foreman probably because he's aware that it conflicts with real pathogens.

The pathogen is probably only found in Hinamizawa, otherwise it would have been detected in soldiers from outside the village during WWII. Why it doesn't spread is never explained. Its mode of infection and the way it stays in the host undetected from years until stress triggers it reminds me of latent double-stranded DNA viruses such as Herpes simplex. It too infects neurons and then incorporates its DNA in the host's genome, which enables it to remain inert for years before some kind of stress reactivates the infection and causes a resurgence of the virus.

The reason that the Hinamizawa Syndrome is absent from dead individuals is never adequately explained. You wouldn't expect all the virions to be able to leave the host after his death and if the virions degrade this rapidly, then the disease wouldn't be able to infect other individuals.

Presumably the pathogen is airborne, since even Tomitake who only visits Hinamizawa for a few days and appears to stay in Okinamyia is infected. How a virus that is so sensitive that it degrades rapidly even when in the host's body is able to survive in the air, which is extremely harsh on viruses, is never explained. Due to the brief nature of Tomitake's visits, it seems unlikely to be an enterovirus as well. Maybe it's a pathogen that's spread via mosquitoes like malaria? I suppose that would explain why the SDF drains the Onigafuchi swamp.

The fact that the pathogen causes the host to go crazy and kill themselves is somewhat similar to Rabies. If the disease is a zoonosis (i.e. a disease normally infecting an animal) then it wouldn't be unusual for it to kill an accidental host such as a human.

In conclusion, the Hinamizawa Syndrome pathogen's behavior is too self-contradictory to be able to provide an adequate explanation for what it is and I doubt that Ryukishi07 has ever come to a conclusion for its nature, since its traits are tailored to fit the story rather than biological verisimilitude. If I had to call it something though, I'd say it's a latent dsDNA virus that produces a zoonotic disease in humans and is carried by an insect vector such as a mosquito.

[ganbaru]

By the way, the Hinamizawa Syndrome pathogen is said to be a parasite.

[Klashikari]

it isn't even confirmed.
Irie said there were evidences that the syndrome is generated by a parasite.

However, there isn't any proof that Takano didn't change some data and/or didn't influence Irie's judgment on it.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

By the way, the Hinamizawa Syndrome pathogen is said to be a parasite.

I suppose that the disease could be caused by something such as Toxoplasma gondii, which is an protozoan parasite that normally infects cats but that can also infect humans. It too can remain inert for long periods of time within nerve cells. Interestingly, this organism is thought to cause behavioral changes to humans that carry it (such as making men more antisocial and women more promiscuous) and it's estimated that up to one third of the world's population is infected by it.

Of course that still doesn't explain its limited distribution and you'd expect a protozoan to be more robust and much easier to detect and work with than a virus as well.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

it isn't even confirmed.
Irie said there were evidences that the syndrome is generated by a parasite.

However, there isn't any proof that Takano didn't change some data and/or didn't influence Irie's judgment on it.

You need to indentify the pathogen if you want to find a cure, or to create a bioweapon with it, no?

[Klashikari]

Not necessarely. If they were able to identify it completely, they would find out this "pheromone" story is just crap and completely irrelevant.
I'm not exactly sure they could really pint point the pathogen, however, they most likely found a way to determine what kind of substance might have a specific effect on it.

[SeventhHS]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Why it doesn't spread is never explained.

Wasn't it mentioned as something to do with climate (which is why people who leave the Hinamizawa region more frequently go L5?) I only vaguely remember this, though, and don't know whether it was someone's theory or a fact. It also seems implausible that a pathogen so sensitive to climate that it won't spread beyond one village wouldn't be stressed out simply by the natural change of seasons and such.

Originally Posted by Eryops

Presumably the pathogen is airborne, since even Tomitake who only visits Hinamizawa for a few days and appears to stay in Okinamyia is infected.

Didn't Takano infect him deliberately? (Of course, that would be hard to do if the pathogen were never isolated...)

In any case, symptoms of the Hinamizawa Syndrome reminded me vaguely of two real afflictions- a complication of syphilis called general paresis (that I mentioned half in jest back here) and ergotism (caused by eating grain infected with a certain fungus, and fairly infamous for causing psychotic outbreaks through history.) But neither of them fit the bill in their manner of transmission, obviously. The Hinamizawa Syndrome doesn't seem to much resemble any real disease and is likely just engineered to tie up all the loose ends left by chapters 1-6; it strikes me as a bit of a cheap plot device that way.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

Wasn't it mentioned as something to do with climate (which is why people who leave the Hinamizawa region more frequently go L5?) I only vaguely remember this, though, and don't know whether it was someone's theory or a fact. It also seems implausible that a pathogen so sensitive to climate that it won't spread beyond one village wouldn't be stressed out simply by the natural change of seasons and such.

Yes, that is said but they never really specify how the climate of Hinamizawa can be so distinct that the disease won't spread at all. I suppose that the vector or pathogen could be limited to the Onigafuchi swam, but considering that its so easily transmissible that seems a bit hard to believe.

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

Didn't Takano infect him deliberately? (Of course, that would be hard to do if the pathogen were never isolated...

In the anime she only states that she sent him some fake prophylactic medicine before his latest visit and then simply injects him with H173, which causes the pathogen to go out of control. Presumably she can be confident that he'll be infected just by being in Hinamizawa for a few hours.

Also, don't they manage to isolate the pathogen from the construction foreman?

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

The Hinamizawa Syndrome doesn't seem to much resemble any real disease and is likely just engineered to tie up all the loose ends left by chapters 1-6; it strikes me as a bit of a cheap plot device that way.

I agree that its attributes are too convenient but I suppose it wouldn't work very well if the Hinamizawa Syndrome was a global epidemic. Maybe if Ryukishi07 runs out of ideas he could make a sequel where that happens.

[Rias]

It was explained that Hinamizawa Syndrome disappears from a corpse in matter of hours, degrading into components that are easily found in a human body. That's the reason why they wanted live samples to operate on.

I think the thing is that the Queen's Carrier Theory isn't completely bogus. It's true the "if the Queen dies, everyone goes L5 in 48 hours" part is wrong, but we can see that the parts about how the "workers serves the queen" (All villagers are super nice to Rika...contrast can be seen in Saikoroshi-hen when she's not the Queen. Also Rika's mother did express that the attention she had was shifted from her to Rika after she was born), and how the Queen can create chemicals in the brains of people exibiting high level of the syndrome to help them calm down. (As seen when Rika confronts Shion/Rena, just that Dark Rika's attitude/action usually makes things worse )

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Rias

I think the thing is that the Queen's Carrier Theory isn't completely bogus. It's true the "if the Queen dies, everyone goes L5 in 48 hours" part is wrong, but we can see that the parts about how the "workers serves the queen" (All villagers are super nice to Rika...contrast can be seen in Saikoroshi-hen when she's not the Queen. Also Rika's mother did express that the attention she had was shifted from her to Rika after she was born), and how the Queen can create chemicals in the brains of people exibiting high level of the syndrome to help them calm down. (As seen when Rika confronts Shion/Rena, just that Dark Rika's attitude/action usually makes things worse )

I'm pretty sure that the reason everyone in the village worships Rika is because she's considered (correctly) to be the reincarnation of their god. There's no reason to think that she has sway over the pathogen in addition to that. Besides, the fact that the older denizens of the village, who are also the most religious, are the ones who adore her the most indicates that this is tied to religious belief rather than to the Hinamizawa Syndrome. In Saikoroshi-hen Rika isn't the reincarnation of Oyashiro so it's natural that the villagers pay much less attention to her.

Also, considering that Rika fails to prevent any of her friends spiraling into insanity and it's Keiichi that actually succeeds at it in the end, I'm quite unconvinced that she has any inhibitory effect on the illness.

[Klashikari]

It is rather the fashion Rika is worshipped that Takano believes even more in her queen theory.

[whiteferrero]

ic ic. tank you for the answers. one more question!

when keiichi buried uncle houjou, and dug him up the body was no longer there. why? did he just make a mistake in the location?

[Klashikari]

Remember when Keiichi asked Mion if she could "force" the curse to fall on Teppei?
Well, because of that, Mion knew Keiichi will do the same mistake that Satoshi did (with Satoko's aunt).

Basically, just like in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, Mion asked help from her family, and they displaced the corpse elsewhere. That is the reason why Mion and the other club members tried to make an alibi for Keiichi as well.

[ganbaru]

Personally, I still belive than Keiichi did dig the first hole. If someone would want to take elswere the corpse, he would need to know were to search first.

[Don_Don_Kun]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I don't think Rena was carrying a cleaver in that scene, K1 was just seeing things. I think that since Rena had already scarred him before with the cleaver that his paranoid dilusional mind put it there (maybe its really just a school bag or something).

In that scene Rena was trying her hardest to help K1. If you take away all the weird and distorted camera shots and the creepy voice and just pay attention to the dialogue, it seems really normal.

Also, the needle scene was a symptom of K1's insanity, not a cause. There was no needle. With the (also distorted) dialogue he just had with the girls before, he was expecting something like that

1) He manages to find the needle in one small bite.
2) There's no blood.
3) It is gone when Ooshi asks for it as evidence.

Though, it is true it is the first scene that he is completely bonkers.

wow, this arc definitely seems to be the most puzzling and open for speculation and discussion. I'm rewatching higurashi 1st season to clear up some loose ends in Kai, but i still can't find logical answers for some of the scenes. I suppose most of the oddities were simply due to keiichi's hallucinations and growing paranoia, though it seems odd how he could simply halucinate entire conversations into existence.

oh well, thats probably why this arc remains one of the most puzzling, simply because it seems so far from the actual truth. Still, this was one of the best introductions to an anime that i've ever seen, can't wait to see how it looks in live action!

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Don_Don_Kun

wow, this arc definitely seems to be the most puzzling and open for speculation and discussion. I'm rewatching higurashi 1st season to clear up some loose ends in Kai, but i still can't find logical answers for some of the scenes. I suppose most of the oddities were simply due to keiichi's hallucinations and growing paranoia, though it seems odd how he could simply halucinate entire conversations into existence.

Spoiler for Onisarashi-hen:

The Hinamizawa can really twist the sufferer's perspective. Let's not forget the extent of Natsumi's hallucinations; they make Keiichi's delusions in Onikakushi-hen look tame.

[bratchaman]

Originally Posted by Don_Don_Kun

wow, this arc definitely seems to be the most puzzling and open for speculation and discussion. I'm rewatching higurashi 1st season to clear up some loose ends in Kai, but i still can't find logical answers for some of the scenes. I suppose most of the oddities were simply due to keiichi's hallucinations and growing paranoia, though it seems odd how he could simply halucinate entire conversations into existence.

oh well, thats probably why this arc remains one of the most puzzling, simply because it seems so far from the actual truth. Still, this was one of the best introductions to an anime that i've ever seen, can't wait to see how it looks in live action!

If you pay attention to the dialogue between the characters and ignore the mood, most of the conversation is normal.

It is because of K1's hallucination's that they seem more eerie and threatening.

[Don_Don_Kun]

Originally Posted by bratchaman

If you pay attention to the dialogue between the characters and ignore the mood, most of the conversation is normal.

It is because of K1's hallucination's that they seem more eerie and threatening.

thats a good point, i suppose that K1's hallucinations are what makes certain scenes seem alot more threatening than they really should be. I guess its possible that he only began to hallucinate when Rena or Mion did something that might have added to his growing paranoia such as being concerned for his safety.
The fact that Keiichi already suspected both of them as being key suspectes in the consecutive murders and the fact that were both hiding secrets from him caused him more anxiety.

although i'm still wondering how valid K1's hallucinations were in this arc, by that, I mean were they really that different from what was really going on?

Heres some examples of what I mean

1) After Rena's famous "USODA!" scene, a numerous amount of birds in the tree behind her flew away, obviously due to the sudden loud noise. another hallucination?

2) The white van. Surely K1 could not hallucinate the fact that he was almost run over by a van.

3) Rika. In ep. 3 after Keiichi starts carrying around Satoshi's bat, Rika tells him that "you must not lose the bat". If K1 was never in danger in the first place, then why would Rika tell him he needs it for defense?


Despite watching both seasons of higurashi, reading the manga, and playing the visual novel, there are still some lose ends in this arc for me. I'd appreciate it if someone could give some insight on this so that I can finally sleep at night (not really)