2008-11-02, 16:41 | Link #7841 | |
Zero Requiem
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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2008-11-02, 16:46 | Link #7842 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Thanks. ^^ But I was more thinking about his personality. If his father had... I don't know... just died somehow, would Suzaku have started his own rebellion? |
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2008-11-02, 16:52 | Link #7844 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Hm... what happened there to his father? I only know that I don't like the drawings. xD |
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2008-11-04, 17:48 | Link #7847 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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2008-11-04, 18:25 | Link #7848 | ||||||||||||||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Maybe not the terrorist versions in the first season, but if they took him prisoner cell and all, I don't see him breaking out. Quote:
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Hence it's a much better way of going about it. Quote:
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And the one using the bat is doing the same, one is still worse. Quote:
It means that Suzaku expected Lelouch to call off his attack completely, as in no attacking Japan ever. Suzaku got all put-off because Lelouch went ahead and did it after their meeting went south.
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2008-11-04, 22:33 | Link #7849 | ||||||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Ah, that's right. A couple rebels with an outdated knightmare blew up a black project, killing Japanese and Britannian civilians both, and then made off with goods that they didn't even know. Or rather, thought was a nerve agent... which could really only kill a lot of Japanese, if used in Japan. Quote:
Flawed or not, it worked. Suzaku's path of using the system brought the SAZ, which even Lelouch submitted to. Quote:
In the second rebellion, Britannia has nukes. If you accuse Suzaku of being a hopeless follower of a flawed path that actually succeded, you really should lynch Lelouch for being so stupid as to oppose a military that really can kill everyone else combined. Quote:
Now was that so hard? Quote:
Ah, I'd say more on the comedic gold mine you have here, but alas debating the finer parts of fiction and what a work of fiction shows isn't in my time schedule. |
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2008-11-04, 22:57 | Link #7850 | |||||||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Corruption, however, has nothing to do with this particular incident. Corruption here is how policy is formed, carried out, etc. In this case, Charles is top dog and it is outright law that non-Britannians are scum. The only way that was going to change was through a new Emperor. Quote:
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I can thing of a few examples where they do it intentionally, but doing it while catching another person who definitely isn't is another story.
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2008-11-05, 08:39 | Link #7851 | |||||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Since long quote wars are tiresome and tedious, I'm going to pick a few of these.
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Corruption is the stuff like taking bribes, abusing authority, taking advantage of the weak, etc. There's plenty of that in Britannia as well, but that's largely focused in the lower nobles and authority. Quote:
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Lelouch is just as guilty as Suzaku for putting his own desires and judgements above what everyone else thinks. Do we really need to touch on the Demon Emperor Lelouch and the Zero Requiem, which was a plan built on the very premise that Lelouch and Suzaku knew what was best for the world and how to do it, screw the world's opinion on the matter? Quote:
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2008-11-06, 00:58 | Link #7852 | |||||||
Spinning Lotus
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2008-11-06, 09:20 | Link #7853 | ||||||
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Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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2) Schneizel was already running Britannian diplomacy and much domestic, both de facto and dejure as the foreign minister. Becoming Emperor really would have just cemented what he already did. 3) The SAZ was that sweeping change, and one that could, and if it proved out well (and the anime implications were that it would have) then it could have been copied in other areas. Quote:
If you're trying to negate his gain because Schneizel and Cornelia weren't sincere and eagerly hoping for equality, should I also assume that you do the same for Lelouch and Zero? The man who, in the final turn of S1, admits to Kallen that he saw Japan's liberation as little more than a welcome side-effect of his own crusade, and that she should have no complains? Quote:
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You simply can not honestly dismiss Suzaku for ignoring the opinion of the people and for the potential consequences of his success without doing the same for Lelouch, who not only placed his own judgement above that of every other person in the series, including the sister he started it all for, but as we already established was committed to fighting the world's only nuclear power. Regardless of how skillful Lelouch is at politics, he is also dedicated to crushing Britannia, shown to be as powerful as the rest of the world combined, and Britannia is dedicated to keeping the Geass ruins that were Charles' motivations for invasions in the first place. That's an equally damning set of catastrophe as the dire warnings you raise for if the SAZ succeded. |
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2008-11-06, 14:38 | Link #7854 | |
'Sup Ballers
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Age: 34
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I don't buy that part, there were various instances that was that proved Japanese wasn't equal to Britannians even without resistance. Like the the beatdown of Japanese civilians by Britannian citizens in public, not goveronment personel. Pubilc opinion was that Japanese was inferior to Britannians. It would take decades to change that mindset, not just a parcel of land. And when the only way you can get somewhere in the world in is to sign up to be an Honorary Britannian over being Japanese, that is not equal. And I wonder about Charles, he may not have been a racist, but he was a strong believer of Darwinism. Had he actually taken notice that Euphie was giving the Japanese land back, and it started to show success, how hard unbelievable would it have been if he did something about it? Chances are he would have flexed his power over Schneizel and Cornelia(who didn't give Suzaku respect until after the Massacre). And of course, soldiers would have followed Charles since they still believe Japan was inferior, just look at how eagerly they followed Euphie when she randomly ordered the massacre of civilians. I'm not saying that SAZ couldn't have worked, it may have been pretty likely. But to say it would have worked was just absurd. It's all specualtion, it was, is, and will always be. Last edited by Dilla; 2008-11-06 at 15:05. |
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2008-11-06, 17:16 | Link #7856 | |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
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As for the SAZ, it as been mentioned but one of the major reasons it was even allowed was because the Britannians needed to undermind Zero's support. So really Zero had more to contribute to the formation of the SAZ then Suzaku himself. The way I see it, Euphie formed the SAZ because of what she believed in and the kind of person she was. In fact when Nunally tried to reform the SAZ, Suzaku was not behind the idea until Euphie was mentioned. Euphie influenced Suzaku much more then the way around as up until Euphie gave him the speech about loving her he was still looking to die a martyr. Euphie gave him a new wish and gave him her ideals as well. |
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2008-11-06, 17:36 | Link #7857 | |
Zero Requiem
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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2008-11-06, 18:15 | Link #7858 | ||||||||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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The SAZ has been covered by others before me, but I'll reiterate a few points. The SAZ was not a sweeping change. It was a gimmick used by the higher-ups to fuck over the rebels. It wouldn't have been copied in other areas, because it would go against Charles' policies of discrimination. Hell, the only reason he didn't put a stop to it is because he outright knew Lelouch would ruin it. You see this in his happy laugh during the massacre. He may have been happily surprised, but he knew something would happen. Quote:
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As for Suzaku, I can dismiss him, because Lelouch is giving people what they want and working toward the same goal in an effective manner, while Suzaku's method, in addition to simply telling everyone who disagrees to shut up and play nice, would still leave Japan a conquered nation, assuming he even managed to become Knight of One. Finally, to the part about fighting Britannia in general, just because a nation has better resources does not make them unbeatable. In fact, they were pretty much even with the UFN once it was formed, and even in single engagements only so much military force can be used in one place. The bigger army is not always the victor, and Lelouch fought them because he has the skill to beat those odds.
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2008-11-07, 17:50 | Link #7859 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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So Suzaku always was idealistic and flawed.
I think we already established that. I still adore him, just like I adore Lelouch and Clovis. Neither of them is a saint, but they are all very intriguing characters who just couldn't get it right. Sure, Lelouch always tried to give people what they wanted, but he never bothered to ask them first. And how many lives did he destroy on the way? Her murdered women, children, abandoned a whole country for the sake of his personal happiness (which, of course, equals Nunally), ...yep, definitely not a saint. But he was too kind for this world, so I really don't blame him. Quite the opposite, in fact: I think he deserved much more happiness in his life. Now, that may seem a little bit off-topic, but I think it's rather hard to talk about either Lelouch or Suzaku without mentioning the other. (And I'll never get how you can love one of them and hate the other like some people do/did, but that's just me.) Suzaku, in my opinion, is the same as Lelouch. He was much too kind for the world he was born into. His childhood was not much less traumatic than Lelouch's, and just like his best friend, he was only trying to do the right thing. They have a different way of thinking, but that what makes their friendship so much more interesting. They complement each other. If Suzaku hadn't been consumed by his guilt, if Lelouch had known about his friends pain, if they hadn't been sperated or done things just a little bit differently... I wonder what would have happened. But even though we can only speculate about that, I'm pretty sure things would have went a lot more smoothly. |
2008-11-07, 17:59 | Link #7860 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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I don't think they could have worked together at any point before when they did. Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were and Lelouch needed to lose everything before finally dealing with Suzaku.
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