Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Justin_Brett]

Whatever - my point still stands. Cypha's main purpose is to be less two-facedly evil than the rest of them, and be a hate sink for the audience.

Kinda redundant for the first point...fairly effective for the second. Mostly because they were as blunt about it as possible.

[Akiyoshi]

I wonder why Hayate of all people seems to be so harsh towards the Huckebein(not that i'm complaining, the guys didn't done anything to erase their image as dastardly killers). It's because she's so compromised with her job and duty that she erases all possible sympathy in order to manage to fight them as criminals or is she just going Mama Bear on them for what they do to her precious children?

Just to cement Justin Brett's and my own opinion about Cypha as a character i think of her like Doomsday from Superman. The monster became world-wide famous(both out and in-universe) for being able to kill the man of steel with his bare hands but then the writers didn't found how to top that and then Doomsday became a very generic and dull villain used very ocassionally in very contrived plots. While Cypha didn't have to worry about being left aside for being one of the regular bosses of the arc, she's also having some problem with her characterization because she wasn't done anything impressive after her big introduction(as Justin pointed out before) thus becoming a generic villain without a true personality and insulting Signum in the process for being unable to living up to the title of being the one who beats the strongest combat mage of the cast. Curren easily takes away the title from Cypha by achieving much more impressive results against a bigger number of better equipped opponents(one of them even tougher than Signum herself) and with a lot less effort. There's also the difference that Doomsday beating on Supes is much more impressive by the fact that he achieve it without exploiting any handicap(Kryptonite, Red Sunlight, etc...) while Cypha on the other hand, well...

[Mirron]

Used a power that she had? It may not have been fair for Signum, but she knew what she was getting herself into. And I'd give the edge to Nanoha as strongest combat mage. Signum may be able to go toe to toe in raw power, but Nanoha is just much more versatile, which really pays off.

And really, we've had so little time as it is, I'm not concerned about Cypha being developed. The majority of the new characters have had only a sparce amount of characterization, it's not that surprising she seems bland.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Mirron

Used a power that she had? It may not have been fair for Signum, but she knew what she was getting herself into. And I'd give the edge to Nanoha as strongest combat mage. Signum may be able to go toe to toe in raw power, but Nanoha is just much more versatile, which really pays off.

The Huckebein's powers, during Cypha's fight in particular, reminds me of an old Superman cartoon where Luthor finds an alien able to turn it's body into Kryptonite and then there was Metallo. But we already discussed that aspect of the fight to no end and i cana gree with you if you want, i won't be justifying Signum anymore, she utterly lost that fight, Anti-Magic is not a valid excuse anymore to deny that permanent truth.

About Signum VS. Nanoha, while the draw is accorded one still can catch who is the one in the better condition to continue the fight at the end(ie. not Nanoha). If not for that, Signum won't get as hyped as she was by the time she faced Cypha and the impact would be much smaller. Nanoha is an undeniable top Ace with a lot of flexibility in all areas but that fight demonstrates what happens when she try close combat against a specialized melee fighter. But still all of that is part of the old magic generation style and is currently meaningless on the new era.

Originally Posted by Mirron

And really, we've had so little time as it is, I'm not concerned about Cypha being developed. The majority of the new characters have had only a sparce amount of characterization, it's not that surprising she seems bland.

Which is sad because again there a lot of potential for that situation wasted, a great number of times what makes a series great is a great villain, someone with a variety of traits, of course being strong or intelligent are some of the requirements but the best villains also have a somewhat charming personality, something that makes them interesting but also a valid target for the heroes to despise and defeat without looking like jerkasses.

Sure, Cypha is a Hate Sink and works just fine at it but her genericness upsets me because i was expecting more from the rogue who beats the strongest fighter of the series. Up until that point i was expecting Signum receiving her first defeat at the hand of "The Dragon" after a tough battle or being curb-stompped by the Big Bad himself. But nope, she falls against one of Curren's sidekicks who didn't even manage to do anything impressive besides beting her. If Cypha will really be the new Signum i expect her to at least do a decent job at it.

[00-Raiser]

The thing with Doomsday is that he was created and introduced for the sole purpose of killing Superman. Doomsday 'died' at the end of that fight too and served no further purpose (until they brought him back whenever they felt like it).

Doomsday didn't exploit a handicap, but he used the powers given to him, mainly his insane strength and ability to adapt. The same applies to Cypha: she used the abilities she had.

Cypha is still alive and kicking so she's got the opportunity to do more. The thing is that there just hasn't been any time to squeeze anything in. Force is still an ongoing manga and from the looks of things there's a lot more to go so you should wait before serving judgement. If after it's over Cypha still is just a cardboard cut out villain who only defeated Signum then you can be critical about it.

[Mirron]

I'm sorry, but what? You want to say Signum is better because Nanoha can't do close-range combat? You may as well say (barring perhaps Unison Signum) that Nanoha is better because Signum won't really be able to compete in long-range combat. To put it even a more ridiculous format, you may as well say Shamal is better than Signum, because Shamal is better at creating barriers and healing than Signum. You can't compare a characters best strength against another character in the same field when that second character is not meant to be good at melee combat. She may be able to do it, but she's much better at long range. And I still feel that, if it came down to it, Nanoha would win, because she's ridiculously good, but it would be a difficult fight.

Further, Signum losing in and of itself is the big deal, not because she's crazy powerful, but because she's Signum. You know... a main character on the show? My first though upon seeing it wasn't how much of a threat Cypha must be, it was Signum just got rather badly injured, I hope she'll be alright. If you want to talk about someone taking the fall in a battle, well, again, it pretty much had to be Signum anyways, as most of the cast had already had that happen to a bad guy anyways. Not because, again, she's ridiculously powerful, but because she was the one who had lost the least overall so far.

I'm sorry... but you're missing the point. This is only just beginning, and most of it so far has been all this one battle. Cypha hasn't really had much time to be developed as a character. And Nanoha got beaten up by the sidekick, as you like to put it, in A's, so it's not like someone important hasn't lost to someone who isn't the main before. Heck, that was what happened in general in StrikerS. Further, Cypha is not going to be replacing Signum. No one is replacing anyone. Even if someone were to die, it wouldn't go that way. They would be new characters, in their own right.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Mirron

I'm sorry, but what? You want to say Signum is better because Nanoha can't do close-range combat? You may as well say (barring perhaps Unison Signum) that Nanoha is better because Signum won't really be able to compete in long-range combat. To put it even a more ridiculous format, you may as well say Shamal is better than Signum, because Shamal is better at creating barriers and healing than Signum. You can't compare a characters best strength against another character in the same field when that second character is not meant to be good at melee combat. She may be able to do it, but she's much better at long range. And I still feel that, if it came down to it, Nanoha would win, because she's ridiculously good, but it would be a difficult fight.

I'm not saying Signum is better than Nanoha overall but that she's better in duels than her, Nanoha is better at multi-target opponents due to her wide arrange of bombardement spells and aerial skills. Signum by herself is not that good with multiple Targets, but is a very skilled one-on-one fighter, able to short the distance between her target and herself in a flash(which is a serious threat for a mid-long ranged fighter). Nanoha's best chances to deal effective hits to Signum is find ways to put her in front of her big guns. I'm totally sure a Starlight Breaker can take down Signum instantly but much like Signum have troubles using SturmFalken against Fate i'm pretty sure Nanoha will have high difficulties trying to setting up that on Signum(specially since the latter have great knowledge about said finishing move).

Just take into consideration that Signum was able to quasi-defeat Blaster-1 powered Nanoha without any upgrades. While Nanoha is very powerfull and skilled, Signum is stronger(physically), tougher, faster and better protected than her ...and is just as skilled as her(taking on a mid-long range specialist with a wide variety of attacks and called "the Ace of Aces" for fighting Physical Gods as a regular basis ...with just a chainsword and basic fire magic and -arguably- came out on top). Ar the end it will go down to who is better at applying their specilization over the other. Signum can stand most of Nanoha's artillery on feet but i'll go by the assumption that she can succumb to a Blaster-3 powered Excellion Buster or the aformentioned SLB while Nanoha have an immense amount of guts and over the years find ways to improve her close combat capabilities but still hasn't reached the power and speed of Signum's thus being in danger of being taken down with one or two well placed hits. Maybe Signum isn't as flashy as Nanoha and can't level cities with her powers but all she needs is to hit her once on the right spot ....unless Nanoha suddenly acquires super regeneration and gain the ability to instantly regenerate damage tissue, muscles and organs xDU.

Of course, i'm talking again about the pre-Force Nanoha and Signum, the latter is a smallfry now.

Originally Posted by Mirron

Further, Signum losing in and of itself is the big deal, not because she's crazy powerful, but because she's Signum. You know... a main character on the show? My first though upon seeing it wasn't how much of a threat Cypha must be, it was Signum just got rather badly injured, I hope she'll be alright. If you want to talk about someone taking the fall in a battle, well, again, it pretty much had to be Signum anyways, as most of the cast had already had that happen to a bad guy anyways. Not because, again, she's ridiculously powerful, but because she was the one who had lost the least overall so far.

Well Signum actually isn't much of a main character really. While it's true that she has done some amazing stuff and used to be the living incarnation of awesomeness, she didn't really do enough plot-relevant stuff or receive screentime or dialogue enough to acknowledge her existence beside being A) The stoic badass of the cast, B) The Cool Big Sis of the Yagami family and C) Fate's worthy rival. Her existence so far(along with Zafira and Shamal) is to support Vita and Hayate's characterization. StrikerS expands a little more by taking her Cool Big Sis persona onto supporting other characters like Erio, Vice and Nanoha herself in a way. But her motivations, ambitions or overall opinions on various issues are always left in the shadows.

Hope that from now on Signum become more vocal about things, the Stoic archetype can work in various settings(like in comedy or love dramas), but in a badass world is a bit tricky, Stoic fighters usually tend to be so strong that they can actually afford being stoic by letting their actions speak for them, once showed to the audience that "they're not so strong after all" they can no longer affort said luxury. Usually a change(little or big) on their characterization is to be expected, the ilussion of silent badassery is broken now so if they still try to act "tough" and "cool" the question then changes from "how awesome he will be this time" to "how hard he/she will be screwed up this time" at this point we know their stoicness and strong appearance are just for show. Unless Signum manage to beat some Big Name that represents an extreme level of threat she will be condemmed to embrace small victories against mooks or mini-bosses having a fate somewhat similar to a curbstomped ex-boxing champion. But yeah, it's her first defeat so i at least expect her to be beaten by new villains at least two more times before start losing her credibility permanently.

Originally Posted by Mirron

I'm sorry... but you're missing the point. This is only just beginning, and most of it so far has been all this one battle. Cypha hasn't really had much time to be developed as a character. And Nanoha got beaten up by the sidekick, as you like to put it, in A's, so it's not like someone important hasn't lost to someone who isn't the main before. Heck, that was what happened in general in StrikerS. Further, Cypha is not going to be replacing Signum. No one is replacing anyone. Even if someone were to die, it wouldn't go that way. They would be new characters, in their own right.

Replacing in a sense of being the new resident Stoic Badass swordswoman(of course unless someone beats Cypha's sorry butt in a very one-sided manner), i guess is to be expected that Cypha at least manage to do awesome stuff by herself from this point onwards but as i said before Curren is apparently the one taking the spot of the best melee(and probably overall)fighter of the series. As for Signum she will probably not dissapear but she will be probably placed in the shadows alongside Zafira and Shamal(Vita is safe thanks to her characterization and while). Oh and while Vita can be theorically described as a sidekick she's at least a very sympathetic sidekick with lots of developement who right after beating Nanoha keep doing lots and lots of amazing stuff.

[Keroko]

You know, I love a lengthy debate. Anyone who's been around the Nanoha parts of the forums for a while can tell you that I do. But for the love of whatever deity holds your faith can we please drop this eternal "Signum /Cypha is a flat character" rambling? Honestly, it's like there is some form of Godwin's law around this place that any discussion will eventually spiral down to another Signum/Cypha debate, repeating the same things that have been said a dozen times already.

[Akiyoshi]

You can take that as a resume and leave it as that if you want xD.

Well, there's a possibility out that apparently Cypha is slowly turning into a character i "Love to Hate" while Signum is also slowly becoming a character i "Hate to Love".

[Justin_Brett]

It's not really about a lack of development, honestly, although it doesn't really help that the Hucks are supposed to be deep characters in something that updates so slowly. They wouldn't have introduced her in such an excessive manner if you were really meant to like her - I doubt Vita would have many fans if, for example, she had hit Nanoha into a coma with Graf Eisen.

But again, I'm wondering why a token evil teammate is really required in a group like this. They're all pretty unpleasant if you stop to think about it, so it's not like Cypha is that much worse.

[Mirron]

I want to keep arguing, but it's so ridiculously pointless at this point. You're both determined to make Signum the best fighter in the entire series when it comes to magical combat, and at the same time make her out to be the weakest member of the cast who has no chance in the slightest against the current foes. Which is ridiculous and over the top on both ends (albeit, not so much the first end, since I'd still say she's second overall), and not really worth the time to argue.

And I don't hate any of the current new characters so far, not even Cypha. I'm holding off on feeling much of anything until we've gotten a chance to know them more, so they're all just... kind of blank, at least the villains. I do like Thoma, Lily, and Isis so far, but still need more to really feel for them.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

It's not really about a lack of development, honestly, although it doesn't really help that the Hucks are supposed to be deep characters in something that updates so slowly. They wouldn't have introduced her in such an excessive manner if you were really meant to like her - I doubt Vita would have many fans if, for example, she had hit Nanoha into a coma with Graf Eisen.

Yeah, that helps a lot. It was an awesome move because it manage to show how stunningly powerfull Vita was as also demonstrate how determined Nanoha is but the real ice on the cake is Fate appearing in the nick of time saving Nanoha from the surgery room and nearly defeating Vita, reducing some of her exaggeratedly apparent superiority in combat(saving Vita from a much bigger fanbase backlash) and also demonstrates how awesome she has become since Season one in the process.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

But again, I'm wondering why a token evil teammate is really required in a group like this. They're all pretty unpleasant if you stop to think about it, so it's not like Cypha is that much worse.

Heh, it will be funny to take that idea to the 4komas. Cypha now with the good team constantly mocking Signum becaouse of the beating with Subaru interfering and menace Cypha(or both) with her Sword Breaker in order to calm things xD.

Also my guess is that Deville will be the first Huck to be worfed, the guy is practically asking for it. Just look at him: Big Impossing appearance? Check, Implacable fighter who easily put heroes in danger? Check, Claiming to be superior than his opponent(Fate)? Check, Having an "indestructible" armor? Check, Silent and cool behavior? Check.

Candidates can range from a new upgrade on a hero, the Raptors demonstrating their effectivity, a new eviler foe or Isis taking him seriously. My bet is that Deville wouldn't end the season without having his ass handed to him.

[Justin_Brett]

I like that they were able to add some development for Isis in this fight, at least. It was more than you could say for the Hucks, or hell, even Touma.

And nah, it's definitely gonna be Veyron. Touma needs an actual win soon.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

And nah, it's definitely gonna be Veyron. Touma needs an actual win soon.

Well, he already beats Nanoha, but i get your point, he needs to win a fight he actually fight by himself xD.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I wonder why Hayate of all people seems to be so harsh towards the Huckebein(not that i'm complaining, the guys didn't done anything to erase their image as dastardly killers).

Of all people she have most right to judge them and to be harsh in that - when it came to similar choice she chose to die and not to kill. That 'ritters broke her orders and other things happened resulting in her getting to live do not diminish it. So she can say "it's wrong" and act on it with clear heart.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by al103

Of all people she have most right to judge them and to be harsh in that - when it came to similar choice she chose to die and not to kill. That 'ritters broke her orders and other things happened resulting in her getting to live do not diminish it. So she can say "it's wrong" and act on it with clear heart.

Good answer, i never tought of that, yup Hayate is the one closer to understand the Hucks circunstances and seeing them choosing the path of killing contrast heavily with the determination she gather to sacrifice herself for the well-being of others and her overall sense of responsibility, thus triggering her anger and will to fight for the justice she believes in. Well it has been said somewhere that a gentle heart is also in more danger of being broked, this POV gives more sense for Hayate's suddenly transformation into a rough commander and also gives more dimension to her character. Fortunately if preview images from Ch. 15 are to be believed this "rivarly" with Curren will be played up for the rest of the Arc.

[00-Raiser]

Actually, not really. Hayate didn't know she was going to die if the book wasn't complete. The Wolkenritter just told her that doing so would give her immense power and she didn't need that. Hayate did not have the "kill or die" option forced onto to her.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Actually, not really. Hayate didn't know she was going to die if the book wasn't complete. The Wolkenritter just told her that doing so would give her immense power and she didn't need that. Hayate did not have the "kill or die" option forced onto to her.

Well, at least until near the final confrontation, Hayate mostly aware that her condition is rapidly worsening and even if Signum already told her that completing the book whil bring her the power to heal completely she still refuses. More importantly, not only Hayate was given the option of "kill or die" by the Lieze twins but also the chance to end the world that make her suffer and sleep happily ever after in a dream, Hayate wiotness the death of her beloved family right in front of her eyes and was telled that she's going to die inevitably. Hayate loss control for a while but at the end she's able to overcome her despair, all of that, without knowledge that things will be fine in the end. Hayate choose to live but more importantly, choose to live the rightfull way.

As the Esquad Huckebein NEXT design reveals, a treatement for the Eclipse infected actually exist and they refused to receive help. Probably that's one of the reasons of why Hayate is so unforgiving towards this people, she was confronted with the option of "Die or become a wicked physical god" she ultimately choose a third option, the Huckebein on the other hand have a hand offering help to them and they refused said help going insted with the easiest(and bloodiest) option. So yeah, it's understandable why Hayate think of them as criminals. One of the few things i still want to see about the Yagamis is the inevitably dialogue confrontation of morals between Hayate and Curren.

[al103]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Actually, not really. Hayate didn't know she was going to die if the book wasn't complete. The Wolkenritter just told her that doing so would give her immense power and she didn't need that. Hayate did not have the "kill or die" option forced onto to her.

1. She knew that she have unknown illness that is slowly getting worse and worse... Hayate is smart enough to understand where it will end.
2. 'ritters told her that completing book would give her power, including healing it.

She refused.

[00-Raiser]

She was never told it was fatal, and it only got to that point awhile after the book awakened. Dr Ishida only spoke of the deteriorating condition to Shamal. Obviously Hayate knew something was wrong with her that she had to be hospitalized but at no point did it indicate she thought her condition was fatal.

Also, she was just told that she needed to collect magic from other mages to complete the book, not kill those said mages. Indeed, the Wolkenritter proved that you didn't need to kill anyone.