Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Yes but Hayate can take any spell being Mid-Childa or Belka and use it. That makes her special. She is not limit to one of the two like the rest. Then again Vivio says she can do the same.

Any mage can do the same. It's just not as practical to practice two styles at once, so few do.

[Sansker]

No, is just Hayate. Otherwise why we will consider her power to Collect and Use a rare skill?

krisslanza, we don't know. That is the problem when it falls to "We are never told so could be anything". Really is just like the program was made to create Jail so he could be the bad guy for StrikerS and not really anything else comes out from it.

We know making artificial mages was illegal but if the council already had this tech why they didn't create and army of super mage and then just educate them to be the perfect soldiers? As well as they put on Jail's head the idea of "old tech is awesome" they could put something like "The TSAB is the best thing ever" and get an army of powerful, smart mages which only think on doing good for you. There can take us guessing.

So to me the project is present with poor results at best.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

No, is just Hayate. Otherwise why we will consider her power to Collect and Use a rare skill?

Because she doesn't have to train to learn new spells. She can just get them. She skips the main reason why most people avoid learning two styles.

Originally Posted by Sansker

We know making artificial mages was illegal but if the council already had this tech why they didn't create and army of super mage and then just educate them to be the perfect soldiers?

Artificial mage tech was flawed. Cost ineffective and prone to failure.

Cyborg tech was present, but still in development. You don't start mass-production until the prototypes are giving the all-clear.

[Kaijo]

You can learn to ride a bicycle and a unicycle. You can learn to play soccer and football. Any mage can learn any spell from any source... but specialization is an easy route to power. Witness how Nanoha drilled the forwards in each of their specialties, in order to make them a match for anything as a team. Also, some people are naturally gifted in various ways, so some things are easier or harder for others. Subaru could do illusion magic, but it would be really hard.

Speaking of which, notice how Subaru learned the Divine Buster, which is a Mid-Childian spell, even though she's a Belkan Style magic user? And it gives you an idea of the differences, too. Subaru's Divine Buster isn't as strong or as long-ranged as Nanoha's is, so even though she learned it, she is not as proficient with it.

[Sansker]

I still keep my word until some cannon source proof me wrong. I mean so far nobody but Vivio and Hayate use two styles and we are not told if that is possible. Or even if it can be done. So I keep what I say, at least for now. In any case Kaijo, Subaru create a spell and she named "Divine Buster" she didn't use the original attack so is not a proof spells can be share like nothing between styles. Only Vivio have done that I believe.

[Kaijo]

Do you even know what the difference is between MidChilda and Belkan styles?

[Sansker]

Nothing at all? I mean I get the difference we most look in to the things but to be honest they are the same to me, just diferent thing under you when you use one of the other.

[Kaijo]

From the Nanoha StrikerS manga, chapter 5, page 7:

Belkan Style
-Utilizes magic power to enhance the performance of physical abilities and weapons
-Incredibly strong one-on-one, but magic power usually remains close to the body
-Weak point is covering long distances

Midchildan Style
-Utlizes magic power to form various effects
-Currently the most commonly used style
-Focuses on ranged techniques, and is the primary choice for long distance and bombardment attacks.

Subaru and Teana have a talk about the differences and styles there in those pages as well. And if you really get into it, there is ancient Belkan and Modern Belkan styles as well.

Think about all the differences between the various martial arts styles we have. Some, like Tae Kwan Do, rely on throws. While Akido relies on avoiding a fight, or if they must fight, there are a lot of counters, dodges, and turning your opponents moves against them. Karate focuses on a lot of strikes.

It's the same with the magic styles, but also goes much further as some people are better suited to some than others (as Subaru kinda explains in those pages). But generally speaking, Belkan users like Subaru, Erio, Signum, and Vita focus on using magic to strengthen and enhance their physical attacks. While Midchildan users like Nanoha, Fate, and Teana use magic more to shoot magic in longer-ranged attacks. Each group could use spells from the other, but it's just the type of style they are more suited towards.

And then we get into elemental affinities, like Fate or Signum, which mean they are more suited towards using elemental properties in their spells.

So there very specific differences to the styles, and based on that and a person's natural talent, certain magics are easier or harder to utilize. Subaru's Divine Buster is very much in the style of Nanoha's, as it is a magical beam of energy. But Subaru, because she is a Belkan magic style user, can't do a Divine buster as good as Nanoha does. Also, Vivio is a Belkan user and has learned the Divine Buster as well.

[Sansker]

But such differences are not absolute and can become even less important. Hayate has long range Belkan attacks and Fate has close range Mid-Childan ones. In fact Fate fights using magic to move faster which is using magic to enhance physical abilities and some most of her attacks are close range blades. Even Nanoha had a close range attack.

When I mean none differences I mean no important differences. At least not to a degree we can really talk about different ways to do magic. Both styles focus energy on hits, and can be use in close and long range. Mid-Childa seems to be more to shoot and Belka to hit but they can do the other way around as well so what is the point to say one have a limit range. Spells are different, I give it that much, but they still need mathematical calculation, and liker cores so really talking about two well define styles to such a degree is pushing it a little. Mana conversion affinity has nothing to do with anything here to be honest.

So in the end my point falls down to this: the real difference is more how a person uses the magic than the style of magic itself. Some people are better to hit things others to shoot things, so why does it matter if you use one system of the other if both can be use for any of those things?

Also Vivio learn Divine Buster from Subaru, their versions of it are almost the same so there is that. To me is just that.

[Kaijo]

Because in battle, if you are fighting a Belkan magic user, you know you are better off keeping your distance. True, they may have long-distance attacks, but they will be weaker and less effective then their close-range attacks. The opposite for MidChildan users.

Look, yes, Fate has some melee attacks via Bardiche transformations. The styles aren't absolute. But it does influence what kind of spells are easier or harder for someone to learn and perform. And knowing which your body leans toward, gives you a clue as to which side you might focus on.

But the main point remains: there are very specific differences between Belkan and Midchildan magical styles. Keroko was pointing out *why* someone skips learning both styles... because it is difficult(not impossible) to do. It's usually better to focus on a specific area and get good at it (Like Teana and shooting magic), and that gets you to a higher power sooner. It was a big reason Nanoha chewed Teana out.

But that's why Hayate skips that step, as the book memorized various spells already and Reinforce downloaded them to Hayate's Linker Core, which were then translated to her new book device. Given her considerable amount of mana, she can afford to be inefficient in casting spells not native to her natural talent.

Let's take a spell to showcase the differences, Divine Buster.
Nanoha casts the spell for 20mp, and does 100 damage at a range of 100 meters.
Subaru and Vivio cast the spell for 25mp, and do 85 damage at a range of 25 meters.
Hayate casts the spell for 50 mp, and does 100 damage at a range of 100 meters, but she also has a bigger mana pool, so she doesn't care about the expense.

As you can see, Nanoha is most efficient, while Subaru and Vivio aren't, although they get some use out of it. Hayate just doesn't care. I just pulled these numbers out of my ass to showcase a point about how a single spell would be reflected in various casters, so don't take them as gospel. Vivio and Subaru could increase the range and power of their spell, but they'd have to work much harder at it, because their magical style is inherently different than Nanoha's.

Think about the difference between an electric vehicle, and a gasoline vehicle. Both can perform similar tasks, but how they provide the power is different, and that naturally has different pros and cons, based on what you're going for. A chemical rocket is great for getting out of Earth's gravity well, but an ion engine is far more efficient once in space.

[Sansker]

I am not convince. Yes you are right about some points there Kaijo but again falls down to what I want to do and not what I am bound to do with the style. Fate can blast people as good as Nanoha with a million bullets or giant beams and she can cut you down so really she can do both really well. So the real difference between the styles is how I use them and not how they are made.

Is like using the same blade with different fighting styles. The different between the results is not in the blade itself but more in the style you use and when they try to make Belka and Mid-Childa two different schools they really didn’t make much of it when both can perform identical actions. That is my point.

[Keroko]

Here's the kicker, then. Various times throughout the series, mages talk about why they chose the style of magic they practice. This means that the style of magic you practice is not determined by birth, which means that there is nothing biologically preventing you from learning both styles.

Oh, by the way, Lutecia is using Mid/Belka hybrid as well.

[Kaijo]

I wouldn't say it is totally determined by birth, either. But genetics does play a role in which is easier for you. Micheal Jordan made a great basketball player, but a poor baseball player. Combination of what you are naturally talented with, combined with what you put work into.

Subaru herself says: "I was interested in Mid Style because of its aerial capabilities but, I'm not suited for either Mid Style or aviation right now."

And this was after it is noted that since Nanoha is her idol, she was basically going to aim for the air division. But instead had to detour to the ground forces. If it was totally choice, she wouldn't have needed to detour.

On the other side, Teana aims to be an Enforcer, and recognizes she needs to learn to fly, but can't at the moment.

[Keroko]

And we have Vivio, with a body totally unsuited for close combat, going "screw that, Imma do it anyways."

Subaru could have practiced mid if she wanted to, but her talents -and her cyborg body- were more suited for belka. It's more impractical than impossible, which was mu main point. That learning two styles is not some super special awesome rare genetic trick as sansker seems to imply. We just don't see many users of mixed styles because it'd be twice the effort.

[Kaijo]

Several cyborgs could fly, though. :P

And I don't know if Vivio's body is unsuited for it... despite gaining magical data from Nanoha and Fate and copying their spells, when she was forced to fight Nanoha she used a Belkan triangle, not a Mid circle. And did a lot of close range punching. Given that she is cloned from someone from the age of Belka, it makes sense that she would default to that. Hell, her Saint's Armor would give her more of an impetus to mix things up in close range.

Do you know where it said Vivio's body was unsuited for close combat? Because I wonder if it was more something along the lines of "You lack the Saint's armor, so you're probably better suited towards staying at longer ranges" or "Your mamas are mid mages so you may be more suited toward going with Mid style" or "Your attitude is too kind and you don't take fighting seriously enough to mix it up in close combat" rather than anything to really do with her body. At the least, I'd still think she'd be more suited to Belkan rather than Mid, even if she isn't as suited to Belkan as she used to be or might have been.

[Keroko]

Ahh, you have not been keeping up with Vivid then.

Long story short? Vivio no longer has the kaiser armor and her body has been specifically (and I do mean literally) stated to have a body and magic unsuited for close combat, and better of in the wing or rear guard. Her main strength is "high speed parallel processing" which has never peen specified, but by its name would seem to be the ability to cast multiple spells at once, and really sharp eyes she uses to be a counter-hitter.

So, basically, they retconned the close combat beast from StrikerS by going "that was all because of the Cradle and the Kaiser armor." Which, while a believable retcon as both had been quite established to having been an enormous powerboost during StrikerS, still leaves a sour taste.

If you are interested, the brunt of this explanation comes from chapter 19.

[Kaijo]

I have been keeping up with the translated portions of Vivid, but I just didn't recall anything said about Vivio's body being unsuited to close combat. I know they seem to indicate she no longer has her Saint's Armor (which is understandable if you want a protagonist who isn't super strong).

Hmm, chapter 19 just talks about Vivio's current strengths and weaknesses. She has a low defense and attack, but good eyes as far as sizing up incoming attacks and spatial placements. Nothing in there about whether she'd be good or bad at Belken or Mid styles in general. Attack and defense are something easily improved upon. And relative, based on who and what you are fighting (see Nanoha's defense vs. Vita in A's ep 1).

Given her young age and light training to that point, I'd say it is expected that she doesn't have an extreme attack and defense yet. Nanoha did, but she was more of an exception. The forwards didn't have strong defenses, either, until they got enough training. (Caro failed to shield against Lutecia the first time in ep 10, I think, but was able to shield against her when fighting her near the end).

And Vivio goes on to mention that she is being trained as a counter hitter, which would mean she'd need to get in there and hit. Do you have source to where they mention her body is unsuitable for close combat? I don't recall everything over the chapters, so I may have missed it. But I don't remember if they ever said something like that.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I Hmm, chapter 19 just talks about Vivio's current strengths and weaknesses. She has a low defense and attack, but good eyes as far as sizing up incoming attacks and spatial placements. Nothing in there about whether she'd be good or bad at Belken or Mid styles in general.

Of course it doesn't say that, because I never said that. I said Vivio's body and magic were stated to be unsuited for close combat. And in chapter 19, starting from page 16 Shante goes into quite a bit of detail on how Vivio's magic is unsuited for close combat. The analogy that this is because she's young falls apart when none of her friends the same age have this problem.

My point is that Vivio, despite having a body and magic unsuitable for close combat, still finds a way to make it work. It shows that biological limitations with magic does not exclude one from styles of magic by default. Going back to the point that raised this, just because Subaru is "better suited" for belkan magic doesn't mean mid is automatically impossible for her. Just less practical.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Of course it doesn't say that, because I never said that. I said Vivio's body and magic were stated to be unsuited for close combat. And in chapter 19, starting from page 16 Shante goes into quite a bit of detail on how Vivio's magic is unsuited for close combat. The analogy that this is because she's young falls apart when none of her friends the same age have this problem.

My point is that Vivio, despite having a body and magic unsuitable for close combat, still finds a way to make it work. It shows that biological limitations with magic does not exclude one from styles of magic by default. Going back to the point that raised this, just because Subaru is "better suited" for belkan magic doesn't mean mid is automatically impossible for her. Just less practical.

Ah, I see. But you also have to keep in mind who is saying it, too. Chantez doesn't want Vivio to fight, mostly because she feels Vivio isn't taking things seriously. I doubt she really knows exactly what kind of potential or capability Vivio's body really has. It was more that she was trying to make an argument for why Vivio shouldn't compete, because she fears Vivio is going to get hurt too badly because she isn't taking it seriously. And while she did get hurt, that had more to do with her judgment, than anything else.

And you are missing Deed's counter argument, that she feels Vivio knows herself well enough and has a good teacher who will put Vivio on a suitable path... which is close combat Strike Arts. So I wouldn't exactly buy Chantez's argument as 100% gospel truth. I'd put more weight on what Deed, Nove, and Vivio think. Also, Vivio scored higher than Corona on the physical tests, and we still see how good of a fighter Corona is.

Anyways, we are argument two sides of the same coin. I do agree that what you can ultimately do is up to you, depending on the work you put in. And that your genetics plays a role as well as to which is easier or harder for you to do (Belkan or Mid). Just like someone with an elemental affinity can more easily learn and cast spells from that element, but it is not impossible for someone else without that affinity to do the same. Just more difficult.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Ah, I see. But you also have to keep in mind who is saying it, too.

That logic is shot to pieces by nobody countering the claim. Even Vivio says the same thing a couple of pages later.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Anyways, we are argument two sides of the same coin. I do agree that what you can ultimately do is up to you, depending on the work you put in. And that your genetics plays a role as well as to which is easier or harder for you to do (Belkan or Mid). Just like someone with an elemental affinity can more easily learn and cast spells from that element, but it is not impossible for someone else without that affinity to do the same. Just more difficult.

Agreed. Really, my main point of disagreement was sansker's claim that using two styles is some sort of rare skill.