Yondaime is Naruto

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Spoiler:

And just why do you think i mentioned the roots....because he'd work out that revenge issue pretty quickly...with alot of discipline

but sasuke got that revenge thing in the academy so whatever he is he will be feeling hatred towards his brother =)

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Papaya

So uh, then the question arises, why did Sandaime seal the kyuubi into Naruto instead of himself?

And uh... why isn't the kyuubi inside the death god?

There's clearly a discrepancy.

Well, if you go with the explanation of Naruto being an incarnation of the 4th, it would make sense because he was attempting to seal the Kyuubi into himself.

First step of Shiki Fujin: The jutsu extracts and seals the soul of the victim into the user. That's why you see the seals on Sandaime and his bunshin.
Next step: The death god then kills the summoner and devours the souls who are within his body.

Now if you consider the possibility that the process was somehow stopped after the first step, then you have the situation of the enemy being trapped inside the user, but they both survive because the death god doesn't devour them. In other words, had Sandaime somehow survived Shiki Fujin, Oro's arms would be sealed inside him.

This possibility raises several questions: What would cause the death god to be unable to devour the souls of both Yondaime and the Kyuubi? That could be any number of reasons. Maybe the process of extracting the Kyuubi's and soul took too long and the death god had to return to his own realm before he got to devour their souls. As for why Yondaime would revert to a baby during the ordeal is also another question, one for which any explanation would be pure speculation.

After examining the scenario, it does seem very possible that Naruto could be an incarnation of the 4th, though it still leaves some unanswered questions.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Well, if you go with the explanation of Naruto being an incarnation of the 4th, it would make sense because he was attempting to seal the Kyuubi into himself.

First step of Shiki Fujin: The jutsu extracts and seals the soul of the victim into the user. That's why you see the seals on Sandaime and his bunshin.
Next step: The death god then kills the summoner and devours the souls who are within his body.

Now if you consider the possibility that the process was somehow stopped after the first step, then you have the situation of the enemy being trapped inside the user, but they both survive because the death god doesn't devour them. In other words, had Sandaime somehow survived Shiki Fujin, Oro's arms would be sealed inside him.

This possibility raises several questions: What would cause the death god to be unable to devour the souls of both Yondaime and the Kyuubi? That could be any number of reasons. Maybe the process of extracting the Kyuubi's and soul took too long and the death god had to return to his own realm before he got to devour their souls. As for why Yondaime would revert to a baby during the ordeal is also another question, one for which any explanation would be pure speculation.

After examining the scenario, it does seem very possible that Naruto could be an incarnation of the 4th, though it still leaves some unanswered questions.

Like i have been saying, the fact that the kyuubi may not be mortal, or that it is a "mythical" creature created complications in the jutsu that were not foreseen. Or the Kyuubi may have done something to preserve itself the best it could before the jutsu would destroy it. It couldn't stop the jutsu, so it did the next best thing and preserved the 4th so that it may live.

Another idea has crept to mind while i was thinking:

A lot of people say that the reincarnation theory isn't possible simply because Oro summons the 4th's coffin. He isn't very worried when he sees he has to fight the first AND second hokage, then he freaks out about the 4th.

Some may think this is not odd, since the 4th was very strong. However what if he "has to stop the coffin from opening at all costs" because a secret will be revealed? Perhaps there is nothing in there, and only Sandaime or perhaps a select few know this. If Oro found out he may figure it out and seek out the reincarnated 4th before he is strong enough to defend himself. That would be disaster, Sandaime knows, because im sure he believes Naruto is very important to the village, perhaps the next hokage.

[Papaya]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Well, if you go with the explanation of Naruto being an incarnation of the 4th, it would make sense because he was attempting to seal the Kyuubi into himself.

First step of Shiki Fujin: The jutsu extracts and seals the soul of the victim into the user. That's why you see the seals on Sandaime and his bunshin.
Next step: The death god then kills the summoner and devours the souls who are within his body.

Now if you consider the possibility that the process was somehow stopped after the first step, then you have the situation of the enemy being trapped inside the user, but they both survive because the death god doesn't devour them. In other words, had Sandaime somehow survived Shiki Fujin, Oro's arms would be sealed inside him.

This possibility raises several questions: What would cause the death god to be unable to devour the souls of both Yondaime and the Kyuubi? That could be any number of reasons. Maybe the process of extracting the Kyuubi's and soul took too long and the death god had to return to his own realm before he got to devour their souls. As for why Yondaime would revert to a baby during the ordeal is also another question, one for which any explanation would be pure speculation.

After examining the scenario, it does seem very possible that Naruto could be an incarnation of the 4th, though it still leaves some unanswered questions.

Here's another one.

Orochimaru performed Edo Tensei during the fight with Sandaime.
Of course, he didn't complete it, so Yondaime never came out.

However, we did get to see Yondaime's coffin, meaning Yondaime's soul was probably already bound to a dead body.

So there's no way Naruto is Yondaime.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Papaya

However, we did get to see Yondaime's coffin, meaning Yondaime's soul was probably already bound to a dead body.

So there's no way Naruto is Yondaime.

Good point that should end this discussion once and for all . But no it will go on same stuff happened during Who is AL . Evnthough facts are right in front of us proving Yondi is dead with some weird twisted logic Yondi will be linked to anyone

Yondi is Naruto

Yondi is AL

Yondi ramen Dude in Disguise

With the same logic going around I can Prove Yondi ---> Anakin Skywalker

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Good point that should end this discussion once and for all . But no it will go on same stuff happened during Who is AL . Evnthough facts are right in front of us proving Yondi is dead with some weird twisted logic Yondi will be linked to anyone

There aren't any "facts", just the story we've seen so far. Only someone with the Uchiha bloodline can get MS. You must kill your best friend to get MS. These were "facts" presented by Itachi, both proven false. Characters in comics and manga come back from the "dead" all the time. Simply saying he's dead b/c he was stated to be dead isn't enough. And the fact that the details about his death are so vague make many people understandably suspicious. I'm not trying tout this as absolute truth, merely as a possibility, one that is not too crazy or illogical to fit in with what we've seen so far.

The point about the coffin has been brought up several times before. The only thing known for sure is that Oro tried to summon a coffin. In the manga, the coffin is never even shown. In the anime, a coffin bearing Yondaime's symbol is shown but you should consider this an educated guess of the animation team and not Kishimoto's own intention. After all, the logical and most likely explanation is that Oro was trying to summon the previous Hokages, but how does that prove for sure he knew for sure Yondi was dead? Edo Tensei doesn't even require the physical bodies of the summons.

Yondi is Naruto

Yondi is AL

Yondi ramen Dude in Disguise

With the same logic going around I can Prove Yondi ---> Anakin Skywalker

No doubt you can twist logic to prove any point. I try to avoid that, but the most likely answer isn't always correct. Your mention of Anakin is ironic. I bet if this was 1979 and someone told you "Hey, I betcha Darth Vader turns out to be Luke Skywalker's father..." you would've said "Man, that's impossible. Luke's father is dead! Obi Wan said so! Darth Vader killed him.." We all know how that would turn out.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

There aren't any "facts", just the story we've seen so far. Only someone with the Uchiha bloodline can get MS. You must kill your best friend to get MS. These were "facts" presented by Itachi, both proven false.

Your first fact was never presented. I really wonder why people keep saying that whereas Itachi said nothing of the sort.
The second may be false but I wouldn't bet too much on that yet. Itachi said that to obtain the same eyes than him Sasuke should kill his best friend.
Key word : the same. Does Kakashi had the same MS than Itachi?
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Suna no tate]

Well my main problem with naruto physically being the fourth is that it there's the issue of the fourths physical body. Ok here's the thing. The 3rd did the jutsu and when he died his body was still there. Anyway follow this scenario

The kyubi attacks konoha. All the ninja race to defend. Finally the fourth arrives. He performs the jutsu on the kyubi and is successful; keep in mind Gamabunta is present the whole time right. So the 4th does the jutsu and is successful. However he gets turned back into a baby and the kyubi is sealed within him and the death god doesn't kill either. Ok... here's the screwy part. Lets say that gamabunta's summoning is dispelled because the 4th isn't really around anymore; he's a baby. So gamabunta has gone away. The ANBU (I'm assuming the ANBU would get to him first, but it doesn't really matter who you choose to get to him first) race to the scene in search of the 4th. They call the 3rd with a walkie talkie:

(thirds office)
[Sandaime is on the phone with someone]:
Sandaime: so captain soujiro was defeated by the giant summoned flies...how'd did he die... to shreds you say... what about his team? are they ok?... oh...to shreds you say... well have you contacted his wife to tell... oh I see... to shreds you say... well hang on, I have a transmission coming in on the crystal ball

Sandaime here. Whats the situation with yondaime?

Anbu Leader: yeah boss, we're at the scene. Um... its weird.

Sandaime: what do you mean its weird?

Anbu Leader: well the kyubi is nowwhere to be found. the footprints show that it clearly met up with gamabunta and yondaime.

Sandaime: so what happened? where is yondaime?

Anbu Leader: well there's no smoke or anything, no giant craters.. neither the kyubi nor gamabunta is around. All thats left is this screaming baby. [To ANBU team member] go shut that baby up

Sandaime: Find yondaime. That should be your perogative

Anbu Leader: yeah, boss we've been looking for a while now. Johnson of the Hyuuga clan is our best search guy and he's coming up with nothing. Boss, he's nowhere to be found, but his clothes are here and they are draped over that screaming baby. WILL SOMEONE SHUT THAT BABY UP?! Yeah boss.... are you there?

Sandaime: yeah I'm here. So his clothes are draped over the baby? Well where is his body then?

ANBU Leader: yeah we think he's dead... or at least thats what johnson says. You want to talk to him?

Sandaime: No I don't want to talk to Johnson! I'm talking to you. Well how did he die?

ANBU Leader: I don't know. Maybe he was vaporized or something?

Sandaime: Vaporized? You're telling me that, there are no explosions, no big ass craters, no kyubi, no gamabunta, no yondaime, to be seen? You're telling me that after the mayhem that must have gone on, all thats left is a baby sitting squarely in the middle of yondaime's clothes? and the best you can come up with is that he was vaporized? You really believe he was vaporized?

ANBU Leader: yeah boss

Sandaime: What if he was kidnapped?

ANBU Leader: no tracks boss... we kinda like the vaporized theory, especially Johnson. He's really pushing it strongly.

Sandaime: well at least did anyone see him leave with a baby?

ANBU Leader: [Team listen up! Did anyone see the 4th leave with a baby in his arms?]... Boss, no one saw a baby. Ricky says he saw him possibly leave with what looked like a large bowl of ramen and some ichi ichi novels, but definitely no baby. Oh boss this just in, a notes been found that says "please treat this kid as a hero". so what do you think boss? you think johnsons right? the 4th is dead? and what do you make of this baby?

Sandaime: well its a tough call, but maybe he really was vaporized. Well, team head back. Call off the search. We won't look for him any more. Grab the baby and head back. And ANBU Team 1 Leader?

ANBU Leader: yeah boss

Sandaime: Tell johnson he's getting a promotion.

Completely ridiculous right? Ok. here are my points. The guys in konoha clearly believe the 4th is dead. Yet, if the fourth is physically naruto, they'd have found the baby amongst the clothes. They'd be idiots to completely ignore that fact and be idiots to not realize that naruto is the 4th, especially today when naruto looks just like him. There's also the issue of gamambunta being present during the entire sealing. Remember how Enma saw what happened with the 3rd and orochimaru. Remember how he was around to look at the dead body of the 3rds? Technically speaking, gamabunta saw it all, and if the 4th is naruto, gamabunta would be all over that. He would flat out have seen it. Gamabunta and jiraiya are friends. Jiraiya would know that too. But, neither gamabunta no jiraiya believe that. Finally, I think its stupid when if there's no body, to assume someone's dead or at least right away. I mean, after itachi disappeared, people in konoha didn't just assume he was dead after him being away for a couple years. Until he's found, technically from a military point of view, he's missing in action. They can't call him dead till there's good proof his dead and they wouldn't call him dead until there was good proof. Him simply not being there isn't good enough to call anyone dead. That logic that the ANBU guys and Sandaime use in the above conversation is so twisted that its ridiculous and thats the logic that must be accepted to believe Naruto is the 4th (assuming no dead body of the 4th was ever found. If his body was found, then this whole thread is a waste of time).

Anyway just some thoughts.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Your first fact was never presented. I really wonder why people keep saying that whereas Itachi said nothing of the sort.
The second may be false but I wouldn't bet too much on that yet. Itachi said that to obtain the same eyes than him Sasuke should kill his best friend.
Key word : the same. Does Kakashi had the same MS than Itachi?
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I'm aware of that. The point of me bringing it up is to show how sometimes it's easy to draw conclusions based on the way one interprets the meaning of the words and take them to be "fact". If we didn't have the obvious contradiction of Kakashi having MS it would be easy to assume from the words he said to Kakashi that he meant only someone with an Uchiha bloodline could obtain it, unless you are someone who intreprets things only literally verbatim as they are stated.

Originally Posted by Suna no Tate

Completely ridiculous right? Ok. here are my points. The guys in konoha clearly believe the 4th is dead. Yet, if the fourth is physically naruto, they'd have found the baby amongst the clothes.

Who says that the clothes remained? When Naruto performs Sexy no jutsu and turns into a nude woman, where the hell do his clothes go? Who knows? Who cares? Plot device.

There's also the issue of gamambunta being present during the entire sealing. Remember how Enma saw what happened with the 3rd and orochimaru. Remember how he was around to look at the dead body of the 3rds? Technically speaking, gamabunta saw it all, and if the 4th is naruto, gamabunta would be all over that. He would flat out have seen it. Gamabunta and jiraiya are friends. Jiraiya would know that too. But, neither gamabunta no jiraiya believe that.

Was Gamabunta even shown in the battle in the manga? Even if he was there in the canon story, it doesn't mean he stayed through the whole Shiki Fujin process like Enma did.

Finally, I think its stupid when if there's no body, to assume someone's dead or at least right away. I mean, after itachi disappeared, people in konoha didn't just assume he was dead after him being away for a couple years. Until he's found, technically from a military point of view, he's missing in action. They can't call him dead till there's good proof his dead and they wouldn't call him dead until there was good proof. Him simply not being there isn't good enough to call anyone dead. That logic that the ANBU guys and Sandaime use in the above conversation is so twisted that its ridiculous and thats the logic that must be accepted to believe Naruto is the 4th (assuming no dead body of the 4th was ever found. If his body was found, then this whole thread is a waste of time).

Well Yondi was in a deadly fight with a nigh-unstoppable demon, there's not many outcomes to that. And considering the heaps of ninja the Kyuubi had probably already slaughtered, I'd go ahead and assume he was dead too. There was no question to whether Itachi was alive or not b/c Sasuke saw him alive with his own eyes.

[Suna no tate]

But vaporized? Unless there's clear proof, there's no way they'd call him dead in such an ambiguous situation. They'd say MIA. More importantly, if the baby found looks just like him and his body was never found, they'd be even greater idiots to call him dead then. "Yeah we think he's dead, but there's this baby who kinda looks like him." And then ten years later that baby really really looks like him and they still think he's dead.

You see I believe that in the fourths grave, his body is there. They found his body and thats how they knew his was dead. But to say they never found anything but a baby at the scene and immediately assumed his was dead is bordering on ridiculous.

Naruto technically doesn't lose his clothes when he does transform, no more than he loses parts of himself or grows parts of himself (as the changes in height would indicate). Its just an illusion; lets just say a light bending trick or something. We've seen the death god summon jutsu done. The 3rd hokage didn't lose his clothes. Why would the 4th lose his? If the baby was the 4th and if it would be found, it'd be right next to the clothes. I just can't imagine where his clothes would go. Maybe they were vaporized?...

My argument with itachi is that he was last seen alive by sasuke, just like the 4th was last seen alive by someone (lets say ANBU ninja Ricky or something). Itachi had never been seen again (until he returned) nor a body of his found and nobody classified him as dead and called off the search. However, the 4th was never seen again and his body never found. Thus we assume he was dead. If I said the same thing about itachi before he returned to konoha, you'd laugh at me and with good reason. The kyubi was deadly yes, but its still foolish to assume the 4th died when

1) the kyubi was defeated
2) a baby who's blond and looks like the 4th was found at the scene (probably in the middle of all his clothes)
3) the 4th's body is nowhere to be found. I presume there wasn't even any blood
4) its one thing when you have like a heap of ninja to the left and they've all been slaughtered, then you can assume that somone is dead. But the hokage? They would assume the Hokage was dead if he just disappears?


None of these indicate the 4th is dead. The most a military group would say is that he's MIA. We have vietnam vets who havent been seen for 40 years who are classified as MIA and not dead. Or kids who are kidnapped by like sickos and go missing for years-- until their bodies are actually found, they're not dead. They're missing and to some extent people will be looking for them until they're found. What I'm getting around to saying is that they believe he's dead and with good reason: because they found his body at the scene, took it back, and buried it.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

But vaporized? Unless there's clear proof, there's no way they'd call him dead in such an ambiguous situation. They say MIA. More importantly, if the baby found looks just like him and his body was never found, they'd be idiots to not put the two together.

There's no way they would consider him MIA. Where would he go? Why would he leave? Yondi was fighting a demon the size of a mountain. The Kyuubi could swallow several ninja whole with one gulp. He had chakra that could probably incinerate a human with a mere touch (and if you consider Naruto's chakra with just 4 tails this is a definite possibility). There's any number of reasons why they wouldn't find a body. And even if they didn't declare him dead immediately, after 12 yrs when the story actually begins. don't you think he would've finally been declared dead? As for Naruto looking like the 4th. All newborns look relatively alike. Naruto wouldn't have been immediately recognized as identical to the 4th.

You see I believe that in the fourths grave, his body is there. They found his body and thats how they knew his was dead. But to say they never found anything but a baby at the scene and immediately assumed his was dead is bordering on ridiculous.

That's a memorial for all the Hokages. Graves don't always contain bodies either.

Naruto technically doesn't lose his clothes when he does transform, no more than he loses parts of himself or grows parts of himself (as the changes in height would indicate). Its just an illusion; lets just say a light bending trick or something. We've seen the death god summon jutsu done. The 3rd hokage didn't lose his clothes. Why would the 4th lose his? If the baby was the 4th and if it would be found, it'd be right next to the clothes. I just can't imagine where his clothes would go. Maybe they were vaporized?...

It's not an illusion. Sexy no jutsu is a variation of Henge and Henge physically transforms the user. When Naruto transformed into a shuriken and Sasuke launched him at Zabuza, that was an illusion? Little details like the whereabouts of clothes aren't evidence in a world operating on an entirely different standard of logic.

[Zu Ra]

About yondi only possiblity is reincarnation or soul being manipulated by someone ... And why would a shinobi like Yondi allow his soul to be manipulated . He is not physically present ie body is not there or no way Oro could/wanted to summon him

AND MOST IMPORTNATLY Kishi has not even remotely hinted Yondi has anything to do with AL .

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

There aren't any "facts", just the story we've seen so far. Only someone with the Uchiha bloodline can get MS. You must kill your best friend to get MS. These were "facts" presented by Itachi, both proven false. Characters in comics and manga come back from the "dead" all the time. Simply saying he's dead b/c he was stated to be dead isn't enough. And the fact that the details about his death are so vague make many people understandably suspicious. I'm not trying tout this as absolute truth, merely as a possibility, one that is not too crazy or illogical to fit in with what we've seen so far.

Itachi's Ms and Kakashi's Ms is diffrent Kakashi doesnt measure upto Itachi's . Its called MS mainly because Kakashi invented that justu after breif encounter with Itachi , hence Kakashi coined the term MS .

Kakashi'S MS is a variant of MS you could check wiki databook or the manga the keyword being variant of MS . What Itachi was speaking about was MS and he did say Kakashi is capable of getting MS .Also MS is the last power up/ultimate power up for sharingam users ( Kishi hinted it indirectly here ) . But Yondi is not the ultimate power up is he ?

[Suna no tate]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

It's not an illusion. Sexy no jutsu is a variation of Henge and Henge physically transforms the user. When Naruto transformed into a shuriken and Sasuke launched him at Zabuza, that was an illusion? Little details like that aren't evidence in a world operating on an entirely different standard of logic.

You maybe be right about the shuriken, though it has some disturbing implications. It means that when naruto turns into a girl, he physically turns into a girl. Like he's really all girl... ALL of him... even his naughty bits.. I don't know, I still its its an illusion of some sort. But for now, I'll give you the point. But how does it relate to the shiki fujin? It still doesn't explain why his clothes would all of a sudden disappear? We've seen it done before. Sandaime was not naked at the end.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That's a memorial for all the Hokages. Graves don't always contain bodies either.

Graves more often than not do havebodies inside.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

There's no way they would consider him MIA. Where would he go? Why would he leave? Yondi was fighting a demon the size of a mountain. The Kyuubi could swallow several ninja whole with one gulp. He had chakra that could probably incinerate a human with a mere touch (and if you consider Naruto's chakra with just 4 tails this is a definite possibility). There's any number of reasons why they wouldn't find a body. And even if they didn't declare him dead immediately, after 12 yrs when the story actually begins. don't you think he would've been declared dead? As for Naruto looking like the 4th. All newborns look relatively alike. Naruto wouldn't have been immediately recognized as identical to the 4th..

MIA would still be the more likely designation, though you're right they may change it over time. However nothing seems to indicate that it was a recent change. Instead it seems like he was called dead immediately.

MIA just mean we don't know what happened to him. If a guy in on a military boat and he falls off the boad and nobody ever sees him again, the military calls him missing in action, not dead. About MIA, there has to be clear proof that the guy is dead. For example if a bomb falls on you and nothing is left, they can't call you dead until they find something. Now if someone sees the bomb fall on you, then thats proof enough. The problem is nobody saw the 4th be "vaporized". I can't believe we're even talking about vaporization. That was supposed to be part of the flawed logic. To assume someone's been vaporized just because he's not around.

I still feel that the baby would have been found in the clothes, and that gambunta and the kyubi would know what happened. The situation is just too ambiguous and if that logic were applied to every situation like it, lets just say there'd be a lot more funerals going on. Anyway subaku kyu, you're a good sport. Let me ask you this in a joking fashion. Would you promote ANBU ninja johnson for his crack detective work? and did you find the ficticious conversation even remotely funny?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Itachi's Ms and Kakashi's Ms is diffrent Kakashi doesnt measure upto Itachi's . Its called MS mainly because Kakashi invented that justu after breif encounter with Itachi , hence Kakashi coined the term MS .

Kakashi'S MS is a variant of MS you could check wiki databook or the manga the keyword being variant of MS . What Itachi was speaking about was MS and he did say Kakashi is capable of getting MS .

He calls it MS because it's MS. If it were a different attack he would call it as such. No sense in calling Kakashi's a variant when Itachi himself has variations of MS. The only difference is their mastery of the tecnique. The point is, he has it when it was strongly suggested that he couldn't obtain it.

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

About yondi only possiblity is reincarnation or soul being manipulated by someone ... And why would a shinobi like Yondi allow his soul to be manipulated . He is not physically present ie body is not there or no way Oro could/wanted to summon him

AND MOST IMPORTNATLY Kishi has not even remotely hinted Yondi has anything to do with AL .

Why would he? We were just introduced to the AL right before the timeskip. Mostly likely, if there's any kind of relationship we won't learn about it until near the very end of the series.

Anyway subaky kyu, you're a good sport. Let me ask you this in a joking fashion. Would you promote ANBU ninja johnson for his crack detective work?

Hell yeah. Then I'd team him up with comically inept ANBU operative Smith. Ones a deadly ninja assassin, the other one's an awkward bumbler. Wacky hijinks are sure to follow!

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

He calls it MS because it's MS. If it were a different attack he would call it as such. No sense in calling Kakashi's a variant when Itachi himself has variations of MS. The only difference is their mastery of the tecnique. The point is, he has it when it was strongly suggested that he couldn't obtain it.

Lets go to names I mean coining names , Has Kakashi gone to the Uchicha shrine to know what the exact defition of MS is I belive not . Only Sauckay knew it after Itachi . Actually in this very forum in Q&A thread I had asked the same question is Kakashi MS and Itachi's MS same the answer was no , they are variants .

Kakashi has mastered his variant of MS or do you think he would use it against Akatsuki if he had not mastered it . Kakashi cant handle sharingam for long amounts of time .MS even has side effects on Itachi who is born with sharingam

Itachi has variations of MS but which MS Itachi was talking about kill your best freind is not the MS that Kakashi poses .

Why would he? We were just introduced to the AL right before the timeskip. Mostly likely, if there's any kind of relationship we won't learn about it until near the very end of the series.

But why would AL be alive I dont get the logic here . A chracter is considered dead unless the manga-ka thinks otherwise . That way I can say ,why not Nidaime as AL we know nothing about his death or its even vagueur than Yondi's death ..If kishi hints somewhere Yondi is AL then yeah but otherwise .

This whole theory started coz of one thing Yondi is a genius Ninja but was it ever stated the strongest ever ?. AL had to be strong being the main or one of the main anatgonists so this logic was used to interelate these two .

[Suna no tate]

Hey there are lots of things said as fact which turned out to be not entirely true besides the example subaku kyu stated (I'm siding with him on that). There was that statement by zabuza about kakashi's chidori. Zabuza was amazed that kakashi could summon so much visible chakra; turns out it was just lightning. People can be wrong, just like Itachi was wrong (the only way itachi isn't wrong is if he knew that kakashi could develop the MS).

Kakashi seemed that he did know about the MS. When itachi was talking about it, kakashi understood what Itachi was alluding to perfectly. In fact, seems like a good deal of the uchiha men did as well.

The MS is just the conformation of the eye. Remember kakashi's eye is really Obito's eye. Thus its likely that maybe every MS eye will be slightly different (just like in bleach and how everyone has a soul slayer, but they all differ in shape and conformation and ability). If that is what you mean by variations in the MS then yes you are right. If you are however saying that Itachi has the "real" MS and kakashi's/obito's is a fake one or is somehow an incomplete one or a weaker one somehow, then I think you're wrong. They are both equally valid.

I can't take everything Itachi says literally. There's that weirdo conversation he had with kisame right before they went to meet jiraiya. If you take that conversation literally, you will be majorly confused. Besides the "kill your best friend" can mean a lot and itachi is one to say some crazy stuff anyway. Remember how he was all like "sasuke, you're weak because you lack hate". How crazy is that?! Is that really a true statement?! That sasuke was losing to him because he lacked hate? My retort would be fight me after I grow pubic hair and my voice changes. In my eye, its no more true that neji's statements about destiny or sasuke's statements about naruto's being a loser. Let me hit puberty first before you try and beat me up with your uber ninja skills you bully (though itachi certainly has no problem beating up women and children). Why is sasuke really weak? He's cocky and thinks his genius will carry him. He trains but I doubt its as hard as lee or naruto. Sasuke may learn rasengan in a week, but if he put the same effort naruto put into it and combined it with his own natural abilities, he'd figure out like "a teleporting, lightning, mind controlling rasengan". Thats why he's weak...

[Sasuke_Akatsuki]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

I can't take everything Itachi says literally. There's that weirdo conversation he had with kisame right before they went to meet jiraiya. If you take that conversation literally, you will be majorly confused. Besides the "kill your best friend" can mean a lot and itachi is one to say some crazy stuff anyway. Remember how he was all like "sasuke, you're weak because you lack hate". How crazy is that?! Is that really a true statement?! That sasuke was losing to him because he lacked hate? My retort would be fight me after I grow pubic hair and my voice changes. In my eye, its no more true that neji's statements about destiny or sasuke's statements about naruto's being a loser. Let me hit puberty first before you try and beat me up with your uber ninja skills you bully (though itachi certainly has no problem beating up women and children). Why is sasuke really weak? He's cocky and thinks his genius will carry him. He trains but I doubt its as hard as lee or naruto. Sasuke may learn rasengan in a week, but if he put the same effort naruto put into it and combined it with his own natural abilities, he'd figure out like "a teleporting, lightning, mind controlling rasengan". Thats why he's weak...

So you're basically saying Sasuke is lazy right? He doesn't work hard enough

[Mangekyo]

I also agree on what Suna no tate is saying but I also believe it is a state of mind or a certain requirement in order to attain the mangekyo sharingan or it may vary depending on the person.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

The MS is just the conformation of the eye. Remember kakashi's eye is really Obito's eye. Thus its likely that maybe every MS eye will be slightly different (just like in bleach and how everyone has a soul slayer, but they all differ in shape and conformation and ability). If that is what you mean by variations in the MS then yes you are right. If you are however saying that Itachi has the "real" MS and kakashi's/obito's is a fake one or is somehow an incomplete one or a weaker one somehow, then I think you're wrong. They are both equally valid.

Kakashi's Ms is a variant and not the same as MS which Itachi uses . Both are MS but when Itachi was stating stipulations to get Ms it was with resp to his MS not Kakashi

And well Kakashi's Ms is weaker than Itachi NOT because its a variant simply because Itachi has a sharingam bloodline and Kakashi doesnt . Also sharingam just sharingam has adverse effects on Kakashi's body or he wouldnt hide the eye under his head protector would he .

[Suna no tate]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Akatsuki

So you're basically saying Sasuke is lazy right? He doesn't work hard enough

To an extent. He certainly doesn't seem to be outworking anybody. And he only seems to get motivated when he gets shown up by someone (ie gaara, naruto, rock lee, itachi etc). Naruto however seems to always have the motivation motor running. Lets just say until Sasuke gets shown up he only gives 30 percent of effort and lets talent carry the rest of the way. Naruto however will always give 100 percent effort and has very little talent to carry him. Remember the first chapter where naruto was struggling just to do henge? what if sasuke had put naruto type effort into henge? what kind of crazy henge tricks could he have developed and mastered? And remember that at that point, sakura was better at henge than sasuke since she had better chakra control, so its not like sasuke was top notch at it either. You can't say he was lazy because he was indeed good at it and did enough training to get it to that point. I would say that sasuke seems to continually fail to live up to his potential. that I think that is his flaw. but its really somethin I personally feel because I so very much dislike sasuke

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Kakashi's Ms is a varinat and not the same as MS which Itachi uses . Both are MS but when Itachi was stating stipulations to get Ms it was with resp to his MS not Kakashi



And well Kakashi's Ms is weaker than Itachi NOT because its a varinat simply because Itachi has a sharingam bloodline and Kakashi doesnt . Also sharingam just sharingam has adverse effects on Kakashi's body or he wouldnt hide the eye under his head protector would he .

So if you kill your friend directly, you will always get Itachi's MS? Is that what your saying?

And how is kakashi's weaker? He has a different technique, but how exactly is it weaker? kakashi can use his MS technique about as often as itachi can use his. I don't see the argument.