Views Needed - Best Fansubber of Kiminozo??

[Commissar]

Several fansub groups are doing this series so I was wondering which group you guys feel do the best job at translating and in video quailty. Personally, I am using Lunar Anime's, but that's mainly because they seem to be the first ones to put out new releases. Never been dissatisified with their video quality and haven't heard of any major complaints of translating errors. Which version do the rest of you prefer?

[Whojive]

Lunar, i haven't had problems with them so i don't bother going elsewhere

[moose_and_squirrel]

i would also say lunar

[Roots]

Lunar pwnz me

[Nothing Special]

The colors in Onigiri seem washed out, but I prefer their translation over Lunar's.

Onigiri and Lunar Anime video comparison image (166 KB)

:shrug:

[Commissar]

Originally Posted by Nothing Special

The colors in Onigiri seem washed out, but I prefer their translation over Lunar's.

Onigiri and Lunar Anime video comparison image (166 KB)

:shrug:

Doesn't quicktime have a color saturation option like Windows Media Player does? That would let you make the colors more richer to your liking.

[lordwu]

I thought there was a thread on this not long time ago? Maybe it was gone with the old forum.

Anyways, I'm following Lunar's version. I don't like a-k's TL/edit and Ishin is a bit slower in release. Lunar has done a decent job in most of the categories and it's usually the first to come out.

[Commissar]

Originally Posted by lordwu

I thought there was a thread on this not long time ago? Maybe it was gone with the old forum.

Anyways, I'm following Lunar's version. I don't like a-k's TL/edit and Ishin is a bit slower in release. Lunar has done a decent job in most of the categories and it's usually the first to come out.

I tried a search, but didn't find any similar topic (hence my post). I figured somebody must have asked at some point.

[Nothing Special]

Originally Posted by Commissar

Doesn't quicktime have a color saturation option like Windows Media Player does? That would let you make the colors more richer to your liking.

It does, but it will modify the file. I don't modify any of the fansubs I've downloaded because I'll seed them when seeders are needed. (I'm afraid that modifying the movies in any way will cause the hash check thing to fail.)

Anyway, the colors aren't that big a deal to me.

[Tboz]

Seems like everyone is on Lunar... well I am too...

[xpresside]

i like onigiri's
well why? simply coz of ther smaller file size
139MB compared to lunar's 200+ MB ??
and the typesetting....
downloaded one of lunar's kgne and is was VERY blurry
and later they came out with v2? dunno if it was fixed

[outlaw55]

We never came out with a v2, that was onigiri. Our eps are sized that way so they would fit on CD better. The eps were blury becase that was the TV source we were able to get, there was no control over that, and it wasn't so much that it was blury, but if you notice the lines were doubling up, that is a TV error and not caused by the encode. I keep our's larger for the fact to preserve details and quality (little dents in the road, YAY, LOL). If it's not licensed we may we do a DVD release later or something (don't know, I'm not in charge of the project).

[Loki_Sama]

Originally Posted by outlaw55

We never came out with a v2, that was onigiri. Our eps are sized that way so they would fit on CD better. The eps were blury becase that was the TV source we were able to get, there was no control over that, and it wasn't so much that it was blury, but if you notice the lines were doubling up, that is a TV error and not caused by the encode. I keep our's larger for the fact to preserve details and quality (little dents in the road, YAY, LOL). If it's not licensed we may we do a DVD release later or something (don't know, I'm not in charge of the project).

Dont listen to those ungrateful #$%$%%&.........Lunar is doing a GREAT JOB!!!
THANKS!!!!!

[JediNight]

"Our eps are sized that way so they would fit on CD better."

So needlessly bloating the file and wasting 100s of gigabytes of bandwidth makes it fit better? Kiminozo is a drama series -- there is NO way in hell it needs to be over 175mb, and the 140mb should be the same as well unless the person doesn't know what their doing.

Sorry, wasteful filesizes just to fill every space bit on a 10cent CD is one of my pet peeves :P

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by JediNight

So needlessly bloating the file and wasting 100s of gigabytes of bandwidth makes it fit better? Kiminozo is a drama series -- there is NO way in hell it needs to be over 175mb, and the 140mb should be the same as well unless the person doesn't know what their doing.

Listen to them encoding experts

There's a major quality difference between 140mb and 175mb-releases. If you don't know that it's you who doesn't know what he's talking about.

14 eps means 4 CDs unless you smooth the video into oblivion for 140mb-releases. So can divide it 3-4-4-3 or 4-4-4-2. What's making more sense, hm?

I'll gladly take the extra bits in exchange for well-filled CDs and a few more details. If you don't like it, download the 140mb-versions, cool. But there's no reason for a haughty tirade like this from an encoding noob like you.

Sorry, wasteful filesizes just to fill every space bit on a 10cent CD is one of my pet peeves :P

Tip: Get a better link first, then learn a thing or two about bitrates and quality encoding, and then get a calculator to see how many downloads you need before "100s of gigabytes" are wasted.

[OkitaSoshiX]

You Compression Dorks need a life.

Lunar Ownzores, you little

"Compression Size Ratio to the Polygonal Triatholon Rectangle Is slightly off in Lunar's Version *Snorts snot and pushes glasses up*"

Jeebus Chrisp Lunar's Are faster and I like the Easy to read Subtitles plus you get what you download

[JediNight]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Listen to them encoding experts

There's a major quality difference between 140mb and 175mb-releases. If you don't know that it's you who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Do tell. I said it shouldn't be over 175mb for sure. Whether you can get it looking good at 140mb depends on how clean your original raw is and if its naturally darker in colors or brighter(darker colors take less bitrate)

14 eps means 4 CDs unless you smooth the video into oblivion for 140mb-releases. So can divide it 3-4-4-3 or 4-4-4-2. What's making more sense, hm?

I'll gladly take the extra bits in exchange for well-filled CDs and a few more details. If you don't like it, download the 140mb-versions, cool. But there's no reason for a haughty tirade like this from an encoding noob like you.

*Stiffles laughter* Uhm okay then, if you want to attack me personally now then how about this. I've been encoding for longer than almost anyone else in fansubbing save a handful(started around May 2001 I think it was). I encoded some Argent Soma and Comic Party episodes to start out, then did all of Vandread2. Other series include: Kanon, Hikaru no Go, Abenobashi, Tenshi na Konamaiki, Naruto, Da Capo, along with other eps here and there and probably a few series I've forgotten...

My point was that the file being over 175mb doesn't have any "better details" no matter how much larger you make it. I could encode a raw into a 1gig file, does that make it DVD quality? Especially when the raws themselves are usually under 200mb to begin with. I had the raw transport streams for most of the Onegai Twins episodes (~1.4gigs each from satellite) and the AE/Keep encodes look basically identical, and possibly a little better after a light cleanup for example.

Tip: Get a better link first, then learn a thing or two about bitrates and quality encoding, and then get a calculator to see how many downloads you need before "100s of gigabytes" are wasted.

Well lets see 230-175 = 55mb. Lets say theres then 8000 downloads per episode of a 13 episode series (around the average for a semi-popular series). 8000 x 55 x 13 = 5585gb of wasted bandwidth, or 5.45tb if you like terabytes.

Or consider a super-popular series like Naruto which gets around 25,000 downloads per episode. Every 13 episodes it would waste 17.04tb of bandwidth.

In summary, my point was not to encode them smaller to the point you lose detail, it was not to encode them larger for no gain, simply because they fill the space on the CD. I don't like swinging around my encoding experience like an ego-trip, but you asked for it.

[Loki_Sama]

Originally Posted by JediNight

Do tell. I said it shouldn't be over 175mb for sure. Whether you can get it looking good at 140mb depends on how clean your original raw is and if its naturally darker in colors or brighter(darker colors take less bitrate)



*Stiffles laughter* Uhm okay then, if you want to attack me personally now then how about this. I've been encoding for longer than almost anyone else in fansubbing save a handful(started around May 2001 I think it was). I encoded some Argent Soma and Comic Party episodes to start out, then did all of Vandread2. Other series include: Kanon, Hikaru no Go, Abenobashi, Tenshi na Konamaiki, Naruto, Da Capo, along with other eps here and there and probably a few series I've forgotten...

My point was that the file being over 175mb doesn't have any "better details" no matter how much larger you make it. I could encode a raw into a 1gig file, does that make it DVD quality? Especially when the raws themselves are usually under 200mb to begin with. I had the raw transport streams for most of the Onegai Twins episodes (~1.4gigs each from satellite) and the AE/Keep encodes look basically identical, and possibly a little better after a light cleanup for example.



Well lets see 230-175 = 55mb. Lets say theres then 8000 downloads per episode of a 13 episode series (around the average for a semi-popular series). 8000 x 55 x 13 = 5585gb of wasted bandwidth, or 5.45tb if you like terabytes.

Or consider a super-popular series like Naruto which gets around 25,000 downloads per episode. Every 13 episodes it would waste 17.04tb of bandwidth.

In summary, my point was not to encode them smaller to the point you lose detail, it was not to encode them larger for no gain, simply because they fill the space on the CD. I don't like swinging around my encoding experience like an ego-trip, but you asked for it.

OK than.......if u dont like it, just dont download it......and do it urself if you are so great and powerful.......btw atleast finish Tenshi na Konamaiki....... -_-

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by JediNight

Do tell. I said it shouldn't be over 175mb for sure. Whether you can get it looking good at 140mb depends on how clean your original raw is and if its naturally darker in colors or brighter(darker colors take less bitrate)

I see you're already trying to correct your position, which is at least a good sign. Your statement which really caused me to reply was this one:

Originally Posted by JediNight

Kiminozo is a drama series -- there is NO way in hell it needs to be over 175mb, and the 140mb should be the same as well unless the person doesn't know what their doing.

In other words, you call those people incompetent who don't know how to turn KimiNozo from 175mb into a 140mb release without quality loss, and this is just plain silly. Noticeable quality loss WILL occur. ANY competent _quality_ encoder will agree to this. The only exception is when the source is a very poor RAW or video capture, then the "garbage in-garbage out" syndrome will strike and muddle the difference. A decent-quality capture will have a noticeable difference.

I'm coming from an encoding background which specializes in DVD sources. While I like my releases clean aswell, the current fansubber trend to smooth the sources into oblivion is horrifying to me. The main reason why "dark areas" tend to take "less bitrate" is very simple: Dark areas have less contrasts, so the popular smoothing filters kill the detail much more aggressively than daylight scenes with enhanced contrasts. This is why for example most Tsukihime encodes look plain terrible in the dark even though the source itself is exceptional.

I wouldn't go as far as you and say that my personal opinion of how encodes should look like is the right one. For those obsessed to minimize the target sizes in exchange for compromising on the quality loss - sure, just do it. Some people prefer their sausage with mustard, some with ketchup. Those who disagree with me (I prefer mustard) aren't incompetent though - which was what YOU insinuated.

My point was that the file being over 175mb doesn't have any "better details" no matter how much larger you make it.

This is plain incorrect. Unless the source is already mangled into oblivion, 175 will allow for much more details then 140, since it enforces less smoothing. And the same is still true for 230 over 175, though to a lesser degree.

I could encode a raw into a 1gig file, does that make it DVD quality?

Not necessarily. Garbage in - garbage out. But if the RAW is good, the quality loss due to the recompression can be reduced.

Unless you're a filtering wizard working on a screwed source, the likelihood of surpassing the RAW in quality is low (but not impossible - you can definitely improve poor DVD sources into better quality than the original). A higher bitrate however ALWAYS reduces the LOSS for the additional recompress.

Especially when the raws themselves are usually under 200mb to begin with.

The pure _size_ of the RAW is irrelevant. Only the quality (sharpness, detail grade, noise, resolution) counts. I have no problem presenting you a 200MB RAW which will require you to release in 233 or higher to avoid noticeable quality degradation.

Well lets see 230-175 = 55mb. Lets say theres then 8000 downloads per episode of a 13 episode series (around the average for a semi-popular series). 8000 x 55 x 13 = 5585gb of wasted bandwidth, or 5.45tb if you like terabytes.

Oh, now you're accumulating _all_ traffic of _all_ users for _multiple_ episodes. Frankly, why would I bother? The download constraints for the Bittorrent distributor/seeder stay the same: They will basically always use the full allocated upload over the entire seeding time. The rest of the traffic will be shared among the fans, and they will hardly notice a difference.

In other words, if you seed a 140mb-episode for 3 weeks, it will take you fairly exactly the same amount of traffic as a 230mb-episode. The only difference is that the fans have to stay connected a bit longer to download. Big big deal. After all, it's THEIR choice.

In summary, my point was not to encode them smaller to the point you lose detail,

That's why I called you an encoding noob. You always lose detail on recompressing to a non-lossless codec. The question is only how much loss is acceptable to you, and this is a personal decision. It's always a tradeoff between quality and size.

... it was not to encode them larger for no gain, simply because they fill the space on the CD.

Again, your point is no point (see above). At the very least a higher bitrate reduces the loss.

I don't like swinging around my encoding experience like an ego-trip, but you asked for it.

I know a couple of encoders who released 100+ episodes who I still consider barely competent, so pure release numbers don't impress me. But very well. I retract encoding noob and reword my criticizm like this: Your lack of either precision or experience in dealing with bitrate and recompression issues doesn't match up with your haughty dissing of Lunar's decision how to size their encodes.

[NinjaServ]

Originally Posted by JediNight

*Stiffles laughter* Uhm okay then, if you want to attack me personally now then how about this. I've been encoding for longer than almost anyone else in fansubbing save a handful(started around May 2001 I think it was).

Heh, w0w, encoding for a long time does not mean you are good, provide some knowledge or something here. Obviously you are talking like a n00b, obviously you have to filter more and flatten the image more (loosing quality) to make it smaller (and not block up of course). To do it larger with a 200MB+ raw (yea, the raws are big, bite my shinny metal ass if you want!!!) that is good quality you don't have to filter and much WHICH allows it to KEEP more quality. I know ppl have have been driving for FOREVER but they are BAD drivers......same seems to be you with encoding, you prove to have no knowledge of shit and act like a TOTAL n00b. Times have changed and raws are up to 400MB sometimes and 200% the quality of what you guys used "back in the day"

If you weren't a total idiot you would realize the differne between a 230MB and a 175MB file. The larger file usually has better scene transitions (which this isn't THAT big of a deal) from fadeouts/fadeins and other stuff is much more crisp. Also DVDs aren't all they are cracked up to be buster....if you get a HDTV copy of a file and encode it right it will be HIGHER quality than a DVD, being the fact MPEG-2 compression is a horrible standard for DVD at that low of a resolution and bitrate. Back up with some information if you can, I assume you will post a flame after this, but don't waste your time if you don't have anything to back yourself up, cuz as of now you look like a 3 year old telling your mother how to cook!!!