The 2009 Re-Launch of Haruhi Suzumiya (General Discussion)

[Kaioshin Sama]

Volume 3 which contains episodes 3-4 of Endless eight just sold 12,708, which I think proves my prediction, that popularity>content in Japan. That's down only about 2,000 copies from Volume 2. I wonder if Yuki being on the cover had anything to do with it.

Interstingly now that I think of it, the second best selling anime of the week when combined with it's Blu-Ray sales and beating out Haruhi Vol 3 is Gundam 00 Special Edition which is also pretty much just a retelling of a story that's already been told (it's a compilation of the first season), which raises even more questions. I'd use it as further support for my theory, but I don't think it's even necessary at this point.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Volume 3 which contains episodes 3-4 of Endless eight just sold 12,708, which I think proves my prediction, that popularity>content in Japan. That's down only about 2,000 copies from Volume 2. I wonder if Yuki being on the cover had anything to do with it.

Honestly... anybody who expected a complete disaster for the E8 DVDs don't understand just how popular this anime franchise is.

I really hope that people don't see this as fan support for E8. It's not. 12,000 for Haruhi is like the absolute floor of support for this anime.

I'd hate to think what they'd have to do to get it below 12,000 ...

Edit: Nice to see Bakemonogatari take top spot. Note to Kadokawa/KyoAni: This is what happens when you simply try to do a good honest adaptation and don't 'eff around with gimmickry.

[Bionicman]

I posted a response to those numbers on ANN which summarizes my take:

"You can either say "Endless Eight has caused major damage to sales of Haruhi DVD's," or you can say "Haruhi is still a hugely popular franchise than can sell," and in both cases you'd be right. The Endless Eight DVD sales represent a major drop off from both Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody and the first season. Season 1's first three DVD's sold 33,000 to 38,000 units in the first week, and 35,000 to 42,000 overall. E8 sales are only 35% of Season 1 and 50% of BLR. Even worse, the sales of BLR (as well as other shows, like Bakemonogatari) show that you can't just blame the economy or the anime market. Having said that, the DVD still sold more than 'Eden of the East' and 'Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood,' which (to put it mildly) is disconcerting for this individual."

Triple_R rightly pointed out that the popularity of the franchise ensured decent sales. A person on ANN said, "What did you expect? Haruhi's first season was huge. There was no way it wouldn't sell well compared to the average series. Between diehard series fans, completists, people who actually enjoyed Endless Eight, and masochists, it's obviously going to sell quite a bit. To expect that it wouldn't sell is unrealistic."

Like several people have said (on this forum and ANN), the sales of the 'Sighs' DVD's will be important in gauging how many people are just avoiding E8 and will stick with the franchise, compared to how many have lost interest.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Bionicman

I posted a response to those numbers on ANN which summarizes my take:

"You can either say "Endless Eight has caused major damage to sales of Haruhi DVD's," or you can say "Haruhi is still a hugely popular franchise than can sell," and in both cases you'd be right. The Endless Eight DVD sales represent a major drop off from both Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody and the first season. Season 1's first three DVD's sold 33,000 to 38,000 units in the first week, and 35,000 to 42,000 overall. E8 sales are only 35% of Season 1 and 50% of BLR. Even worse, the sales of BLR (as well as other shows, like Bakemonogatari) show that you can't just blame the economy or the anime market. Having said that, the DVD still sold more than 'Eden of the East' and 'Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood,' which (to put it mildly) is disconcerting for this individual."

Triple_R rightly pointed out that the popularity of the franchise ensured decent sales. A person on ANN said, "What did you expect? Haruhi's first season was huge. There was no way it wouldn't sell well compared to the average series. Between diehard series fans, completists, people who actually enjoyed Endless Eight, and masochists, it's obviously going to sell quite a bit. To expect that it wouldn't sell is unrealistic."

Like several people have said (on this forum and ANN), the sales of the 'Sighs' DVD's will be important in gauging how many people are just avoiding E8 and will stick with the franchise, compared to how many have lost interest.

Agreed. I'm really hoping that the Sigh DVDs tops 20,000 each, at least.

Great post and good way of looking at it, by the way.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Bionicman

Even worse, the sales of BLR (as well as other shows, like Bakemonogatari) show that you can't just blame the economy or the anime market. Having said that, the DVD still sold more than 'Eden of the East' and 'Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood,' which (to put it mildly) is disconcerting for this individual."

Actually, you have to take a look at other popular series and how their sales have acted to prove that point. The problem is beside Bakemonogatari and K-on, the other popular series have had similar drop off patterns. Until Sighs, you can't discount release pattern or market factors.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Actually, you have to take a look at other popular series and how their sales have acted to prove that point. The problem is beside Bakemonogatari and K-on, the other popular series have had similar drop off patterns. Until Sighs, you can't discount release pattern or market factors.

Bakemonogatari and K-On both set records this year. First K-On set a record, and then Bakemonogatari broke it. In the very same year! Clearly the market for anime is alive and well to actually manage to do this in a poor economy.

The Haruhi anime franchise has...

1) A sizable built-in fanbase.

2) Appeals both to the sort of folks who would like K-On and to the sort of folks who would like Bakemonogatari. Just look at this board, K-On's board, and Bake's board, and notice how there's a fair number of Haruhi fans on all three boards.


This could have easily been a Haruhi DVD bonanza, on par with K-On and Bakemonogatari, if they had taken a different approach to episodes 2 through 9.

Harsh, but true.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Bakemonogatari and K-On both set records this year. First K-On set a record, and then Bakemonogatari broke it. In the very same year! Clearly the market for anime is alive and well to actually manage to do this in a poor economy.

You are looking at them as the rule instead of the exception. Here's a couple other season 2s or remakes that are airing this year:
Hayate S1: ~12k Disc 1 / ~10k average
S2 dvd+br 1 ~8k, dvd+br 3 ~5.5k
FMA: 36k average
FMA:B dvd+br1 21k, dvd+br2 15k

Both of them are selling far far less than their S1 version and their later volume sales are falling off equally rapidly.

The really issue is that drawing conclusions at this time or by comparing the numbers is a bad idea since:
1) Comparing numbers between different economies results in a huge amount of error.
2) Comparing numbers over 3 years when it is unclear what has happened over 3 years to the fanbase.
3) We are trying to extrapolate information from just 3 data points.

Do we also need to point out that Haruhi S1 R1 release was a total, epic, sales flop?

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Bakemonogatari and K-On both set records this year. First K-On set a record, and then Bakemonogatari broke it.

Bakemonogatari and K-On set Blu-Ray records, the DVD sales of these titles were lower then BLR. We don't know how a combined 28 ep Blu-ray release of Haruhi will sell.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'd hate to think what they'd have to do to get it below 12,000 ...

Hmm... maybe if there was an entire arc that's nothing but Nagato reading a book. It's like the scene from Someday in the Rain, only four episodes rather than two and a half minutes.

... it would probably still reach 11,000.

And I hope Sighs sells well, it's probably my favorite anime arc so far.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by bayoab

You are looking at them as the rule instead of the exception.

No, I'm looking at them as the most popular animes of the year... which is the standard that the Haruhi franchise should be held too.

This idea (by some Haruhi fans and critics alike) of comparing Haruhi sales to how your average anime sells is simply absurd, to be frank. It's like comparing Kobe Bryant's stats to an average NBAers, and actually using that comparison as a basis for whether Kobe had a good year or not.

No... you measure the greats by the greats; either by their past performance or by the performances of new current greats. And with that in mind...

Here's a couple other season 2s or remakes that are airing this year:
Hayate S1: ~12k Disc 1 / ~10k average
S2 dvd+br 1 ~8k, dvd+br 3 ~5.5k

This is a terrible comparison to make to Haruhi. Hayate S1 never even came remotely close to how well Haruhi S1 did. Simply put, Haruhi has more selling potential than Hayate, and by a large margin.

The really issue is that drawing conclusions at this time or by comparing the numbers is a bad idea since:
1) Comparing numbers between different economies results in a huge amount of error.

But that's not the entire argument that I'm making. I'm also comparing Haruhi sales to Bakemonogatari and K-On.

Look... KyoAni's approach to E8 was a commercial mistake.

Edit: Tell you what... in the interest of fairness, I'll wait until we see how the Sigh DVDs do before I consider what I wrote immediately above to be an indisputable fact. If Sigh doesn't do any better than E8, then perhaps you and Bri are right.

However, if Sigh does better than E8... then we can definitively say that E8 hurt DVD sales.

Agreed?

Originally Posted by Bri

Bakemonogatari and K-On set Blu-Ray records, the DVD sales of these titles were lower then BLR.

If the Blu-Ray versions weren't available, far more people would have picked up the DVDs instead.

We don't know how a combined 28 ep Blu-ray release of Haruhi will sell.

A combined 28 ep Blu-ray release of Haruhi might very well do well, thankfully... on the strength of the 2006 episodes, and perhaps Sigh.

[Nappy Hared Azn]

You really can't base how the entire industry is doing based on Haruhi, K-On!, and Bakemonogatari. You have to look at DVD sales as a whole... which have actually declined, based on other series'. So what if Hayate isn't as popular as Haruhi? It's still a popular show, and sales are still going down.

Oh, and yeah... Bakemonogatari and K-On! sold well. What's your point? Hell, Corvette sales have been (more or less) steady for the last 10 years, so that means that GM must have been doing well too, right?

P.S. The current topic at hand is whether or not anime DVD sales are in a decline due to the economy, and you failed to touch on that subject. At all. Furthermore, your argument lacked evidence and warrant, which means its not an argument at all, but just the rantings of a fanboy.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nappy Hared Azn

Did you even read the post?

Of course I read the post.

He (assuming that the poster was, in fact, a male) stated that you can't make conclusions on the entire anime industry based on two examples.

And I'm not making conclusions on the entire anime industry based on two examples.

However, what I am saying is that whatever the state of the economy is as it pertains to anime, it's not preventing substantial economic success for Bakemonogatari and K-On. Clearly, there is room within this economy for some anime, at least, to shine. As one of the very best of 2006, there's no reason why Haruhi shouldn't be one of those animes.

As such, the economy alone can't be used as an excuse for a significant drop in Haruhi DVD sales, given the substantial built-in fanbase Haruhi already had, as well as quite the hype machine going for it.


Edit: Part of the reason why the Haruhi/Hayate comparison is bad is because Hayate is simply not popular enough to be one of the animes that shines right now... whereas Haruhi is popular enough, as evidenced by its 2006 DVD sales. Hayate is nowhere near as well-known amongst casual anime fans as Haruhi is. It's not even close.

I'm not "ranting", and I'm not a "fanboy". Those are utterly baseless comments on your part.



Now... if Sigh sells significantly better than E8, then we can definitely say that Kadokawa/KyoAni's approach to E8 hurt DVD sales.

If you're going to write a rebuttal, then at least stay on the topic at hand. All you did was go off tangent and not even touch on the subject matter at hand.

Wrong.

I did touch on the subject matter at hand by raising a valid objection to one of his comparisons, and also by making valid points pertaining to Haruhi, Bakemonogatari, and K-On!.

Yeah, Bakemonogatari and K-On! sold well. What's your point? Hell, Corvette sales have been (more or less) steady for the last 10 years, so that means that GM must have been doing well too, right?

Another terrible comparison. There's a big difference between "steady sales" and setting records.

[Nappy Hared Azn]

EDIT: You know what, fuck it. This'll just lead to more posts, and I've got better things to do than argue about anime DVD sales.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If the Blu-Ray versions weren't available, far more people would have picked up the DVDs instead.

A combined 28 ep Blu-ray release of Haruhi might very well do well, thankfully... on the strength of the 2006 episodes, and perhaps Sigh.

The sales data doesn't support that statement. The only other DVD-only release with comparable sales figures to Haruhi S2 in 2009 is Hentalia Axis Powers.

More interestingly Haruhi S2 is outselling Clannad AS, which was very well received, (and a Kyoani second season) and has no Blu-ray release.

I'm tempted to say that there is a format war now. Popular OVA's selling massive number on Blu-ray due to the limited number of titles available. Also it seems likely that owners of Blu-ray equipment are much less likely to Buy DVDs.

[Bionicman]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Do we also need to point out that Haruhi S1 R1 release was a total, epic, sales flop?

That reminds me of a question I've been wondering about. Do you think Season 2 of Haruhi will make it to R1 with a dub? I know that Season 1 didn't sell that well, and that Lucky Star did badly enough that one of its LE DVD's wasn't released and its OVA didn't have a dub (not directly related to Haruhi, but it shows that Kadokawa is willing to drop the dub if necessary). However, I don't know enough to tell if Haruhi's sales were bad enough to drop the dub. I don't want to seem like I'm going overboard by wondering if Season 2 will be licensed at all, but if Season 1 flopped, and DVD sales overall are down, and fan response to Season 2 was not exactly positive, there is a question...

BTW, I agree that it's necessary to see the sales of Sighs before we know for sure how the series is doing. However, if sales of Sighs are on par with S2 sales, will anyone know if its the market or fans dropping the series?

[TMSIDR]

Was the R1 release of Haruhi really such a big flop? I think they anticipated higher sales, but they even licensed Lucky Star after this and this series is much more non-mainstream than Haruhi. I also think that the T-Shirts of the LS-LEs were really too...strange...so it's no wonder that the sales weren't that great for this LEs (sorry for the off topic, but I had to mention this).

I think Haruhi will come with a dub to the USA, because it's still one of more known series. However I think that the release won't have as many extras as before, and I'm really wondering how they would handle EE...

It's really interesting that Kadokawa put English subtitles on the S2 DVDs in the hope that some of the R1 people will import it and pay the higher price for Japanese DVDs. But their plan worked on me because I bought the S2 DVDs so far and I'm a European R2 viewer^^. (Not that I care much about region codes *glancing to my large R1 collection*)

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Bionicman

However, I don't know enough to tell if Haruhi's sales were bad enough to drop the dub.

Haruhi's sales were fine numerically to support a dub. The issue is how much Bandai paid for their expected sales and what the final sales were. As long as the price is low enough, it will get dubbed.

I don't want to seem like I'm going overboard by wondering if Season 2 will be licensed at all, but if Season 1 flopped, and DVD sales overall are down, and fan response to Season 2 was not exactly positive, there is a question...

I think that's actually the more at hand question with the R2 getting a subbed release.

Originally Posted by TMSIDR

Was the R1 release of Haruhi really such a big flop? I think they anticipated higher sales, but they even licensed Lucky Star after this and this series is much more non-mainstream than Haruhi.

Depends on your definition of big. Considering the amount of hype and noise about it and then subsequently not meeting sales expectations, I would consider to be a giant one. We actually don't know how badly it did but we do know it probably was ~75-80%* of their sales expectations at best based on the LE vol 1 sales numbers. For Lucky Star, we know about how badly it did though (~75%).

*(Based on them selling through a high estimate of ~15k of the 20k LE v1s with expectations of 18k)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Bri

The sales data doesn't support that statement. The only other DVD-only release with comparable sales figures to Haruhi S2 in 2009 is Hentalia Axis Powers.

I'm going to be frank... I don't think that this has been a good year for anime. I've ended up dropping more anime titles this year than most years. Now, normally I'd just assume that this was my personal taste speaking, but given that DVD sales are down across a significant spectrum...

You see, you can argue that the economy is doing it, or you can argue that the anime just hasn't been all that good overall this year, or perhaps it's a bit of both.

More interestingly Haruhi S2 is outselling Clannad AS, which was very well received, (and a Kyoani second season) and has no Blu-ray release.

This is just a theory, but... there are critically acclaimed anime, heavily hyped and merchandised anime, and anime that are both. If an anime is both, it will generally sell extremely well. One or the other will get so many sells, but you usually need both to really do well.

Clannad is definitely critically acclaimed, but I honestly haven't seen much focus on it off of Anime Suki. That is, to say, on the more generalized popular entertainment internet boards that I frequent - boards that have "anime/manga" sections, but certainly aren't devoted to anime/manga - there's, like, no talk whatsoever about Clannad. I mean, zilch. I don't know if Clannad is all that popular with your more casual anime fan.

Haruhi was. The first place I saw Haruhi hyped (back in 06) was on a generalized popular entertainment board - that was a good sign to me at the time that Haruhi had "made it"; when people who talk as much about Batman and Superman comics as they do about Bleach and Naruto are talking a lot about a particular anime.

I'm tempted to say that there is a format war now. Popular OVA's selling massive number on Blu-ray due to the limited number of titles available. Also it seems likely that owners of Blu-ray equipment are much less likely to Buy DVDs.

You might be right here.

Perhaps Blu-ray has finally arrived.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: Nice to see Bakemonogatari take top spot. Note to Kadokawa/KyoAni: This is what happens when you simply try to do a good honest adaptation and don't 'eff around with gimmickry.

I was going to argue with your implication that Bakemonogatari was "gimmick"-free, but then I realized that for Shaft, all the colored insert frames and walloftext were comparably gimmick-free. Good point.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Bri

The sales data doesn't support that statement. The only other DVD-only release with comparable sales figures to Haruhi S2 in 2009 is Hentalia Axis Powers.

I'm pretty sure Gintama is DVD only.

Originally Posted by Triple R

Clannad is definitely critically acclaimed, but I honestly haven't seen much focus on it off of Anime Suki. That is, to say, on the more generalized popular entertainment internet boards that I frequent - boards that have "anime/manga" sections, but certainly aren't devoted to anime/manga - there's, like, no talk whatsoever about Clannad. I mean, zilch. I don't know if Clannad is all that popular with your more casual anime fan.

Funny story about that particular show in that it kind of warrants several asterisks next to it's name and has factors that cancel each other out to make it incomparably popular and yet also statistically insignificant. I'm not really sure where this is leading myself, but I think you are forgetting that the niche crowd that Clannad appeals to is also insanely devoted to it to a degree that I think more than makes up for it's lack of popularity in the mainstream. It has practically been thrust into a dubious "greatest anime ever" category on the ranking aggregators due to the absence of critics and trolls (though the latter are mounting rapidly) and an abundance of said devoted fanbase that showered it with perfect scores in an epic multi-site proxy voting war with Legend of The Galactic Heroes (typically) that continues to this day at a virtual stalemate and is as bitter as they come. As a result I think it's defied the odds and is doing more than fine for itself on the popularity/hype/critical acclaim what have you front, but arithmetically and in terms of overall fans.....that's a different story. Does that make any sense?

The sales in Japan aren't nearly as bad as people are making them out to be either, but here....let's just say I saw spotted it on the On Demand block for the Anime Network under I kid you not, the category of "Girl Power". This block is basically where they shovel all of the titles that didn't sell well enough on the DVD market and where they try to make up some of the losses for them. East/West differences are something special aren't they?

As for Haruhi and an R1 release, I think just in general it is in the high risk category based on the content, but I think that Endless Eight probably puts it into the red flag category and that the life support status that the western anime market might as well put up a radioactive label over the title. I can't even imagine how they would go about marketing it over here as there is just no way they can pull on core support with western fans the way they can with Japanese otaku even if that were an option.