The future of fansubs at stake?

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

There's nothing to be proud of about piracy, of flaunting laws. I may be deluding myself, but I like to think that fansubbers aren't subbing to say "ha, Screw you, corporate Japan/America," but because they enjoy what they're doing. And from the people I've worked with and spoken to, while I can affirm that a few people like that do exist, the majority have the better frame of mind.

You're correct. When I started fansubbing back in 92 I did it because I loved anime and wanted others to enjoy it. Back then there wasn't much of a choice for fans. Dubbed or RAW were your choices most of the time. Subbed was a luxury and you paid extra for it. 10.00 more was the usual case. Now all that has changed. You get both formats and more eps for your money than before.

The one thing that has truly changed is the source. Long ago you either had the LD, tape or TV recorded tape, and the DVDs once Japan started the switch. Today the quality of the digital signal is awesome and fansubbers have better computers to encode with. The subs look downright professional at times.

I still fansub, but I always use LDs or DVDs from Japan that I've purchased. If the show comes out commercially in the states I keep the subs to myself and my local group. For shows that aren't in the states(like Touch and LOGH) I happily spread the joys of those shows. If they get picked up, well that would be it for releasing them. I even purchase some shows on DVD from US companies of shows I've done. KOR and Macross are examples of this.

Enjoy anime
Heibi
Central Anime

[Access]

Speaking of which, this MG, was "ADV Fansubs" his brainchild?

"Then I saw that a new division, ADV Fansubs, was starting up. They are a group of fansubbers hired by AD Vision to translate the television series from the beginning as fast and economically as possible. They would release four episodes on each tape."

http://www.ex.org/5.5/25-anime_cityhunter.html

"ADV announces the formation of ADV FansubsTM, a new release label which has been created to allow the release of quality subtitled video products directly to the fans who want them at an accelerated pace and"

http://www.ex.org/news/2000_02.html

Need any more be said?

[Yamano667]

Mr Paper How many Canadians know what you do at night??..how much anime drug you take at night to survive another day ?? Almost nobody knows about fansubbing. If you spoke with a Canadian on the street about fansubbing, people will ask ..whats that ??!
I could walk to any finish or Canadian street with a t-shirt that says
bitorrent or fansubs written with HUGE BOLD LETTERS ..The people on the street wouldnt know what that is ??!

How many Canadians have been taken to jail for fansubbing anime ?!
I could take my huge collection of anime to a regional court in Finland
and the judge will ask ..whats that ?! what is it for ?! Is it legal ?!
Why do you waste your life in those things ?!

Oh I wouldnt do anything retarded like Dooss attacking a server to fill my ego
with pride ..oh no, but if I did it, America wouldnt be able to touch me
Finland doesnt have extraditional laws, or cyberlaws its hackers paradise. If you think about Finland, think about NOKIA cellphones

Fansubbing should be worshipped by you, because you come to this website to discuss the latest anime drug HEHEHE ..and you always here worshipping the latest fansub hehehe

HEHE like it or not without our pirated ways your drug wouldnt come to America ...what MR PAPER would do without his drug hehe ??!

The light of God should be on us fansubbers, because how many fans would cry, and definately cry HARD. If we dissapear no to mention hentai fans which the craving is even worse always waiting for the most perverted release ..Our fans kill for hentai raw releases much less for subbed

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

You need to go learn about the laws you don't think exist. -.-

I don't know about Finland or Sweden, but in Canada it is 100% illegal to rip music, to pirate software and to distrubte it. Go read the laws. They clearly state that all the actions you wish were legal aren't and the only thing that's even under debate is whether having MP3s in a shared directory constitutes distribution. Canada without cyberlaws, that is such a load of bull. Maybe you could go tell that to the family that was arrested and fined $750,000 for spamming Yahoo emails or the kids from Quebec that were arrested for DDoS'ing several web servers. Maybe you could also take this up with the pedophiles charged with soliting sex from minors in chatrooms.

I hate people, especially Canadians, that delude themselves into believing such lies. More than that, I hate people who view fansubbing as this glorious and rightous movement that is above all laws and shines with the light of God.

[Mr_Paper]

Originally Posted by Yamano667

Mr Paper How many Canadians know what you do at night..how much anime drug you take at night to survive another day ??

Let's see, usually no more than 2 hours worth. That means I usually watch 1 DVD a day on average assuming there is nothing good on the news and that I don't have previous arrangements.

Almost nobody knows about fansubbing. If you spoke with a Canadian on the street about fansubbing, people will ask ..whats that ??!
I could walk to any finish or Canadian street with a t-shirt that says
bitorrent or fansubs written with HUGE BOLD LETTERS ..The people on the street wouldnt know what that is ??!

How many Canadians have been taken to jail for fansubbing anime ?!
I could take my huge collection of anime to a regional court in Finland
and the judge will ask ..whats that ?! what is it for ?! Is it legal ?!
Why do you waste your life in those things ?!

Simply because something isn't well known is little reason to usurp international law with ignorance as an excuse. This is the attitude I dislike.

On the other hand, if you go to the same judge and proudly proclaim that you willing and knowfully violate international copyright laws under the Bernes Convention I'm sure he'll happily arrange to have you arrained, arrested, charge and fined to the full extent of international law. Sure, your collection of anime would probably have to be sold off to make bail, you'll live the rest of your life destitute and shamed but atleast you would have flaunted yourself before international law.

Oh I wouldnt do anything retarded like Dooss attacking a server to fill my ego
with pride ..oh no, but if I did it, America wouldnt be able to touch me
Finland doesnt have extraditional laws, or cyberlaws its hackers paradise

Actually...

Countries which do not have extradition treaties but do maintain diplomatic relations with the US are Afghanistan, Algeria, Armenia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bophuthatswana, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, China (People's Republic of China), Ciskei, The Comors, Cote d' Ivoire, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Indonesia, Jordan, Korea (South), Kuwait, Laos, Lebanon, Madagascar, Mali, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Micronesia, Maldova, Mongolia, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Niger, Oman, Philippines, Principe and San Tome, Qatar, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sudan, Syria, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Western Samoa, Yemen, Zaire, and Zimbabwe.

Countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extradition treaties with the US are Andorra, Angola, Bantu Homelands, Bhutan, Bosnia, Cambodia, Ciskei, Cuba, Iran, Korea (North), Libya, Maldives, Serbia, Somalia, Taiwan, Transkei, Vanuatu, and Vietnam.

You'll notice Finland and Sweden appear on niether of those lists.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/3181.notes.html

Fansubbing should be worshipped by you because you come to this website to discuss the latest anime drug HEHEHE ..and you always here worshipping the latest fansub hehehe

HEHE like it or not without our pirated ways your drug wouldnt come to America ...what MR PAPER would do without his drug hehe??!

Probably read more books. I have several good books that I've been meaning to get around to reading. I was reading long before I started watching anime and I'll be reading long after the anime market collapses. Honestly, I find it demeaning to the medium and the people who pour their hearts into making the series to refer to it as a drug. You trivialize their work and feelings by refering to it as such.

I could and do care less what happens to fansubbers not willing to abid by the fansubber's ethics. Honestly, they mar the name of fansubbers and cast an unseemly veil apon us all. The fansubbers ethics exist to maintain a certain limit to fansubs, when that limit is cross funsubbers invite trouble. If a good purging is required to re-enforce this then so be it, I welcome it.

The light of God should be on us fansubbers because how many fans would cry, and definately cry HARD, if we dissapear

Would MR Paper be able 2 afford to buy 2 seasons of anime on DVD ?? if we fansubbers cease to exist ..what about OSTs

Assuming all fansubbing ended tomorrow and as a direct result DVD prices were to drop by even $2/DVD. I would be able to buy 3 more DVDs (at MRSP) a month then I currently do now. I'll leave you to work out how many I buy a month...

Also, let's not forget that $250 worth of CDs I import from Japan every 3 months.

You might need to win the 60 million euro jackpot to sustain your anime craving

Actually all you need is a good paying job, a sense of thift and the ability to budget correctly. All of which I'm quite adept at.

[arias]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

Assuming all fansubbing ended tomorrow and as a direct result DVD prices were to drop by even $2/DVD. I would be able to buy 3 more DVDs (at MRSP) a month then I currently do now. I'll leave you to work out how many I buy a month...

I hate to tell you this, but if all fansubbing ended tomorrow and as a result demand for anime DVD skyrocketed, prices would SKYROCKET and NOT fall.

During a bad season when there's crop failure and when demand rises for agricultural products, do you think prices fall? No. They boom. The same would apply for anime. The only reason why prices would fall would be because of physical mass production; which is already being done for printing anime DVDs. The same does not apply to the actual film production of anime.


But hey, thanks for the research. That was really some very interesting stuff.

[Access]

I don't say it to be mean-sprited. Certainly, people need to look at their own egomania that is reflected in their posts. Posting to be heard is OK, but no one wants to hear line after line of self-indulging personal ego-boosting. MGs hypocrisy is obvious, pushing his own "ADV fansubs" on fans with one hand and debasing the same fans with another. But we need to learn from this criminal's self-indulging malfeasance and stand apart from him, not with him.

[Shrimpcraft]

Hmmm after I've read all the posts in this thread...i'm still in the grey area of which one is correct....for one thing, if the law did ban fansub, i don't think it'll seriously just go "puff" and disappear...i mean look at appz and mp3 priacy nowadays....gov't have been said to put a stop to this piracy yet many groups are still cracking/distributing it throughtout the internet...furthermore, i think they will just force fansub groups to go underground...just like razor1911 and other appz crack group and sub anime silently while distributing in p2p networks.

However, I do agree with some ppl in here saying fansub won't last forever....everything built/create from this world will one day perish. Lastly, I support what Mr.Paper said, yet I also support what rest of the ppl who stand strong for fansubbing.... argg reading this gave me a headache ~_~

[Mr_Paper]

Originally Posted by arias

I hate to tell you this, but if all fansubbing ended tomorrow and as a result demand for anime DVD skyrocketed, prices would SKYROCKET and NOT fall.

During a bad season when there's crop failure and when demand rises for agricultural products, do you think prices fall? No. They boom. The same would apply for anime. The only reason why prices would fall would be because of physical mass production; which is already being done for printing anime DVDs. The same does not apply to the actual film production of anime.


But hey, thanks for the research. That was really some very interesting stuff.

I based my statement on the assumption that if all fansubbing stopped and people actually started buying more anime the prices would fall.

Agriculture is a completely different industry to make a comparison to. Where as anime is a luxury item, agriculture is a vital industry in which major crop failures affect everyone instead of a select few. If an anime fails then several hundred people lose their jobs, if a major crop fails tens of thouasands starve.

Also, looking back, as the North American anime industry has grown prices have steadily fallen to the point where a four episode DVD costs less than a 2 episode dubbed VHS 6 years ago. Given this trend, there's a greater chance of prices falling rather than increasing. Furthermore, with more people actually buying the products production runs should logically increase. This means that now instead of having to cover the licensing cost over a span of (for example's sake) 10,000 discs they'll now be able to cover the costs over a span of 100,000 discs (yes, yes. It might be a little exaggerated). As the cost per disc needed to cover the overhead decrease the cost to the consumer per disc should decrease as well.

Remember, the people who founded and run these companies are fans too. They're not out to screw us over. -.-

[Shrimpcraft]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

Remember, the people who founded and run these companies are fans too. They're not out to screw us over. -.-

I don't know about that anymore ~_~ nowadays if anything has to do with $$ it can screw a person totally.

[arias]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

I based my statement on the assumption that if all fansubbing stopped and people actually started buying more anime the prices would fall.

Agriculture is a completely different industry to make a comparison to. Where as anime is a luxury item, agriculture is a vital industry in which major crop failures affect everyone instead of a select few. If an anime fails then several hundred people lose their jobs, if a major crop fails tens of thouasands starve.

Also, looking back, as the North American anime industry has grown prices have steadily fallen to the point where a four episode DVD costs less than a 2 episode dubbed VHS 6 years ago. Given this trend, there's a greater chance of prices falling rather than increasing. Furthermore, with more people actually buying the products production runs should logically increase. This means that now instead of having to cover the licensing cost over a span of (for example's sake) 10,000 discs they'll now be able to cover the costs over a span of 100,000 discs (yes, yes. It might be a little exaggerated). As the cost per disc needed to cover the overhead decrease the cost to the consumer per disc should decrease as well.

Remember, the people who founded and run these companies are fans too. They're not out to screw us over. -.-

Mm. Right, you're trying to distinguish the fact that agricultural products are inferior goods and anime are normal goods. (Inferior = not insulting term; its a term from economics). Still, like I said, the mass manufacturing effects where overheads are spread to more consumers is ALREADY in effect. And for your information, printing costs for DVDs are not high. The gain made by increasing production from a certain sizeable product quantity is VERY marginal. Which means, say I want to increase production of DVDs from 10 DVDs to 10,000 DVDs. The gains made by mass production is high. From 10,000 to 100,000, the gains are MARGINAL. And it might even turn into a loss depending on the plant's (factory) capacity and efficiency. Your point is not valid.

I also would like to point out to you very humbly that just because production costs go down DOES NOT mean that the product's sales price will go down. Keeping it at the same price would increase the firm's profits. Keep that in mind. Still, it seems that you're not adequately defending your position which is increased demand = lower DVD prices. As long as you admit that increased demand will lead to increased prices, that's it. I'm not going further than that; I don't see anime companies (always) as money grubbers. I'm going to support them, like I have, and that's that; I'm just uncomfortable with lousy economics.

[jennwenn]

Originally Posted by LordBrian

Fansubs wouldn't disappear. The only thing that has any chance of disappearing is the current distribution model.

Well I can't imagine them disappearing anytime soon, but there are scenarios I can imagine where fansubs will no longer exist. If all anime in Japan is licensed before its released, new TV systems that prevent capturing of video are in place (beats me how they'll do it), and anime is available on DVD simaltaneously overseas, then fansubs will cease to exist. "Fansubs" would be pointless.

For example, no one "fansubbed" Grrl Power or that SD Gundam show, both of which were released in the USA either first or at the same time as Japan.

[relentlessflame]

(Sorry for falling behind in the thread... it took me a while to type out this reply! Sorry also for the length...)

Originally Posted by arias

I hate to tell you this, but if all fansubbing ended tomorrow and as a result demand for anime DVD skyrocketed, prices would SKYROCKET and NOT fall.

During a bad season when there's crop failure and when demand rises for agricultural products, do you think prices fall? No. They boom. The same would apply for anime. The only reason why prices would fall would be because of physical mass production; which is already being done for printing anime DVDs. The same does not apply to the actual film production of anime.

Actually, I don't believe you are correct here. Unlike agriculture, which is a limited commodity, anime DVD production is essentially limitless. The primary costs are upfront (production-related) - the costs of duplication and distribution are negligable above a certain threshold. If demand for anime DVDs skyrocketed, prices would rise temporarily to balance the demand, but eventually overall prices would return to normal as additional supply is procured in order to meet the demand. Once the initial demand is met, the price generally lowers in order to attract further potential buys - since the duplication and distribution costs are negligable at this point, anything sold here is essentially profit. Evidence to support this economic theory can be seen in the anime industry itself - initial production runs at normal price, followed by the release of a box set or collector's edition at a reduced "package" rate. For further examples, see the videogame industry - specifically, console gaming and it's "Player's Choice" line-ups.

The real question, though, is in the base assumption. If all fansubbing were to end tomorrow, would demand for anime DVDs skyrocket? I dare venture that, in North America, the answer would be no - I think the impact would be marginal at best (IMHO, of course). But what I think was most interesting about this latest word from ADV is their contention that fansubbing in North America contributes significantly to piracy in Asia. Whether or not it's based on facts, I don't know, but it makes for an incredibly clever spin tactic.

Think about it for a second... why hasn't the Japanese industry cared much about fansubbing in North America up to now? Because R1 is their fastest-growing market. So long as the market is continuing to grow, it could be perceived that the fansub community is helping contribute to that trend. Notice that even ADV admitted North American growth, in spite of fansubbing. But, what the Japanese industry is concerned about is the Asian piracy scene. Really, no matter how much of a piracy problem we think we have in North America, the Asian scene is much much worse. If ADV can convince enough of the copyright holders that the North American fansub community is a key contributer to Asian piracy, you can bet that the copyright holders will be willing to stand along side and fight. A loose anology would be the WMD "threat" that led to the war in Iraq (obviously, though, this is far less severe - it's just an analogy!). Now, I think it's safe to say that the Asian piracy problem runs a lot deeper than could possibly be solved by getting rid of North American fansubbers (just as I think we all agree that the terrorist threat couldn't be solved simply by getting rid of Houssein)... but if the North American industry wants to get rid of fansubbers badly enough, and they can convince enough key people that it's worth the time and expense, they just might stand a chance at significantly changing the landscape of this community.

Now - before the above is misconstrued beyond recognition (!!!) - I am not saying that I actually believe the above is what is really happening. In fact, I highly doubt it. I do not sincerely believe that ADV and other licensing companies are "evil" - they just want to protect their business model and see their profits grow; I can't find fault in that, given the culture we live in. What I am saying, though, is that approaching the fansub "problem" from the perspective of the copyright holders is an idea that is far more likely to garner backing, support, and resources. It's hard to convince someone that you're in trouble financially when you just bought a new car and are putting an addition on your house. It's much easier if you get the person to consider how they themselves are being ripped off. Up until now, I don't think the copyright holders had a good enough reason... but now, they just might...

[arias]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

(Sorry for falling behind in the thread... it took me a while to type out this reply! Sorry also for the length...)

Actually, I don't believe you are correct here. Unlike agriculture, which is a limited commodity, anime DVD production is essentially limitless. The primary costs are upfront (production-related) - the costs of duplication and distribution are negligable above a certain threshold. If demand for anime DVDs skyrocketed, prices would rise temporarily to balance the demand, but eventually overall prices would return to normal as additional supply is procured in order to meet the demand. Once the initial demand is met, the price generally lowers in order to attract further potential buys - since the duplication and distribution costs are negligable at this point, anything sold here is essentially profit. Evidence to support this economic theory can be seen in the anime industry itself - initial production runs at normal price, followed by the release of a box set or collector's edition at a reduced "package" rate. For further examples, see the videogame industry - specifically, console gaming and it's "Player's Choice" line-ups.

The real question, though, is in the base assumption. If all fansubbing were to end tomorrow, would demand for anime DVDs skyrocket? I dare venture that, in North America, the answer would be no - I think the impact would be marginal at best (IMHO, of course). But what I think was most interesting about this latest word from ADV is their contention that fansubbing in North America contributes significantly to piracy in Asia. Whether or not it's based on facts, I don't know, but it makes for an incredibly clever spin tactic.

I LOVE your analysis on the ADV-Asia thing. It's makes for a very interesting read, and it's certainly plausible.

I'm a little tired to read the economics part, it's a lousy excuse but I have finals tomorrow. I'd just like to mention from what little economics that I know that although yes; increased demand would later be met by increased supply that will bring down temporarily bloated prices, the GENERAL trend of increased demand - increased supply would still result in higher prices. I'm sure if you've taken economics you'd know that.. I feel like drawing the graph now. But I'll go back to studying for psychology.

Nice analysis, by the way.

[LordBrian]

Originally Posted by jennwenn

Well I can't imagine them disappearing anytime soon, but there are scenarios I can imagine where fansubs will no longer exist. If all anime in Japan is licensed before its released, new TV systems that prevent capturing of video are in place (beats me how they'll do it), and anime is available on DVD simaltaneously overseas, then fansubs will cease to exist. "Fansubs" would be pointless.

For example, no one "fansubbed" Grrl Power or that SD Gundam show, both of which were released in the USA either first or at the same time as Japan.

Well yes, that's true. But discounting an act of God, this probably won't ever happen in our lifetimes (which, for all intents and purposes, is forever). But even if capturing TV raws became impossible and it became impossible to download anything over the Internet, fansubbing would still continue -- it would just go back to the analog days and mail distribution.

Though people still wouldn't sub shows that are awful. :P

[arias]

Originally Posted by LordBrian

Well yes, that's true. But discounting an act of God, this probably won't ever happen in our lifetimes (which, for all intents and purposes, is forever). But even if capturing TV raws became impossible and it became impossible to download anything over the Internet, fansubbing would still continue -- it would just go back to the analog days and mail distribution.

Though people still wouldn't sub shows that are awful. :P

I wish the Post Offices worldwide would plot a conspiracy theory and force this to happen so snail mail volume will increase.






Yes that was lame.

[mantidor]

Originally Posted by arias

I wish the Post Offices worldwide would plot a conspiracy theory and force this to happen so snail mail volume will increase.






Yes that was lame.

LOL certainly it was ^_^

I consider myself to be a newbie in this whole scenario of fansubbing, and all I can say its that thanks to the huge amount of titles available the probability that I would some day buy a DVD has increased. If fansubs are gone, IMO the industry would crack. The popularity of anime has increased, but not as much as we would want too, so this is still a very small market compared to other forms of entertainment, so in this case illegal copies actually help, its not like with music or movies when people go like "this new band has launch a new album, im downloading it to save money" or "im going to download this movie that just got out in theaters to (again) save money" but instead more like "what would be this show about, lets try this fansub to see what it is".

If fansubs disapear Ill just stop watching anime, except for what is broadcasted in local channels, and Ill most surely never buy a DVD

[relentlessflame]

Arias, you might want to read this after your finals. (By the way, I wish you all the best!)

Originally Posted by arias

I'd just like to mention from what little economics that I know that although yes; increased demand would later be met by increased supply that will bring down temporarily bloated prices, the GENERAL trend of increased demand - increased supply would still result in higher prices. I'm sure if you've taken economics you'd know that.. I feel like drawing the graph now.

In general, I think you are right, but I don't think that principle applies completely here. Historical trends in this industry just don't seem to support your argument. Over the last 5 years, the actual average price of purchasing an anime series has decreased, as opposed to increased, in spite of the significant increase in both supply and demand. The trend is the same in the anime industry's nearest cousin, the videogame industry, where the average price of videogames has also gone down.

When you are dealing with a commodity that will always have a limited demand (a niche market), the key question you need to ask is "how do we achieve market growth"? General increased interest can only get you so far; it's like "just because you liked the movie, doesn't mean you're going to buy the DVD". Anime DVDs are a luxury purchase, and even though anime gets significantly more exposure on television these days, the average TV viewer is much less likely to purchase the DVD than the existing anime fans. Because of this, when moving from a niche market to a more mainstream one, your "maximal profit" price point actually tends to drift downwards, at least to a certain extent; the amount of additional purchases offsets the decrease in MSRP. Certainly, this is only true to a point - if anime ever reached true mainstream market penetration, there would no longer be any motivation to reduce the average MSRP, as it will have found it's balance in the process. But, as it stands, I think we will still see a slight downward trend over the next few years, as anime finally settles into place. This may not necessarily appear as a strict decrease in price, but rather an increase in perceived value (for example, more extras, more episodes on a disc, more special deals, etc.)

In any case, those are my thoughts on the matter. I'm certainly no expert, though, and it's getting late, so I hope that at least makes some amount of sense. I'm glad you liked my analysis on the whole fansub-Asia connection... things are certainly getting more interesting!

[Access]

"But, as it stands, I think we will still see a slight downward trend over the next few years..." Thank god for competition, right? One of the reasons pricing of entertainment products drops constantly is the increased competition; look at what happened to the music industry with their $17+ CDs, can't compete with videogames, movies, other entertainment at that price ($17 gets you a DVD movie these days or a re-released / discount videogame); buyers (consumers) force industries to adapt and if one refuses, it becomes the next music industry. The fallen will constantly blame things other than themselves, and occasionally lash out, that's human nature.

[ichido reichan]

from the Geneon panel at animexpo:

I spent a nice time with one of the bandai reps, one was very important and the other was kinda the producer, I wont say names but we started talking about how much money takes to license a series:

-A: they wont go and sue fansubbers (yeah, they have their tricks like COD and nasty letters from lawyers but never had to go that far) suing is kinda expensive.

-B: The license of Naruto per episode is going around $10.000 dollars (home video & tv slot) and is being the most expensive around, american companies are still bidding for less than that.

-C: One piece could be licensed because it was a "tv slot" deal, this means only can be shown on tv and market the merchandise and tv sponsors

-D: Geneon Usa & japan are working togheter on the money deal to save cost and being profitable for both parties since they doesnt have to go on "license talks"

-E: Pokemon is an example of an excellent series that cost almost nothing to license and brought profits way high than expected.

-F: the cost of licensing an episode varies with the popularity, ranges from $6000 to $8000 per episode, and the sure hits and movie features goes for $11.000 to $16.000 episode or movie feature, and ofcourse, the more time passes, the licenses drop on price for others more profitable and new.

[LArSON]

If the fansubbers will dissapear over night, in short term, there will be no problem for japanese and american companies. But in medium and long term, situation will be:
- a decrease in sales in USA and Europe;
- same HK piracy but with less quality sub
- no direct impact on japanese market because i don't beleve there ar any japanese that are watching fansubs.