Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so if lelouch is considered an absolute bastard in the eyes of 99.999999% of the human race that makes him a villain then ?
by your logic

You clearly did not understand what I meant.
To answer your question, yes, he is a villain in their eyes.

a hero can kill and still be a hero
but a hero cant start killing people on mass FOR NO NECESSARY REASON and still be heroic for it
and thats the key word here
necessary

Really now?

lelouch WAS a hero for the first 46 eps of the show
when he was actively figting against a larger, clearly evil, threat
he wasnt a pure knight in shining armor, but he was heroic, and there was plenty of excuses for his questionable actions

Actually, he was hardly a hero for that part.

then the last arc rolls around
at which point, when possesing the power to change the world peacefully, he instead goes on a mass murdering spree to sate his own ego and desire for atonement
there are no excuses for it then

Excuses for what?
Btw, if there weren't any, why did almighty, fair Suzaku not stop him?

stopping snhizel does not require him massacring countless other, completely un-involved people, just to make himself hated
and once he has nothing to excuse his actions, then he bares their full weight

Alas, his massacre was to erase Euphy's massacre in people's minds, to unite people against him with hatred, and not just stopping Schneizel alone. Perhaps he didn't have to. But he did. Live with it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Neku

Actually, he was hardly a hero for that part.

he was faced with a greater evil at least, and was fighting on behalf of the oppressed
which at least puts him on the right side of the scale

Excuses for what?
Btw, if there weren't any, why did almighty, fair Suzaku not stop him?

excuses for his horrible actions

"almighty, fair Suzaku"
what
suzaku is hardly a model of morality, especially in season 2
but its mostly because suzaku is quite possibly insane at that point (litterally, he had a nervous breakdown less then 24 hours before joining lelouch)and that any moral reservations he ever had about anything, died in the flejia blast
he gets to make people forget euphie, which is something he would want
he gets to punish himself
and suzaku gets to kill lelouch in the end
so he gets what he wants

Alas, his massacre was to erase Euphy's massacre in people's minds, to unite people against him with hatred, and not just stopping Schneizel alone. Perhaps he didn't have to. But he did. Live with it.

i do
i dont have a choice in the matter
which is why i feel pissed off about it
if zero-requiem WAS only about stopping Schneizel, i would have been kinder to it

[Nogitsune]

Actually, Mutuality proves that Suzaku didn't want to kill Lelouch.
Also, I doubt he was considerably more psychologically damaged than our favourite Demon Emperor (let's just take all of Lelouch's cute little hysterical laughing fits and build a mountain).

And the English test killed me, so don't expect anything more constructive from me than this for the next few... we'll see. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

he had a considerably psychological change following the flejia
and he stopped viewing "wrong means" as something to be avoided so long as they get results
no matter how wrong they are
so my point about neku's post still stands, since suzaku was hardly in a position where he'd care if lelouch was doing wrong things
at least not enough to stop him

and hope that the test went well

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he had a considerably psychological change following the flejia
and he stopped viewing "wrong means" as something to be avoided so long as they get results
no matter how wrong they are
so my point about neku's post still stands, since suzaku was hardly in a position where he'd care if lelouch was doing wrong things
at least not enough to stop him

Actually, I got the impression that both Lelouch and Suzaku got their act together after the World of C. Or that they were equally insane. However you want to see it. xD
Mutuality doesn't show us ravinglunatic!Suzaku, and neither do his conversations with Lelouch.

and hope that the test went well

Aw, thank you. *-*
Well... I feel it went horrible, but I'm known to exaggerate when it comes to this kind of thing, so we'll see. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Actually, I got the impression that both Lelouch and Suzaku got their act together after the World of C. Or at least, that they were equally insane. However you want to see it. xD
Mutuality doesn't show us a ravinglunatic!Suzaku, and neither do his conversations with Lelouch.

insanity is not the same as drooling all over yourself and talking to walls (even when he clearly snapped, suzaku wasnt acting insane in that way)
its hard to describe in full, but it can take many forms
like believing things about the world that arent true
like that if you dont like the general shape of the world, then its ok to kill lots of innocent people in order to make it a different shape
there is no REAL reason to change it, since by that point its composed of Lelouch's britannia on one side and the UFN on the other
they just dont like the shape of it, and they consider that enough of a reason

Aw, thank you. *-*
Well... I feel it went horrible, but I'm known to exaggerate when it comes to this kind of thing, so we'll see. xD

got my fingers crossed for you

[Cipher]

Do you think you could accept Lelouchs' flawed "genius" as part of his "flaws"? and not hate him on that?

[bladeofdarkness]

its not the genius part thats the problem

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

its not the genius part thats the problem

What's the problem with Lelouch?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Cipher

What's the problem with Lelouch?

lelouch spends most of the show stacking the odds in his favor in every single battle
taking every advantage he can get to make victory easier to achieve
then, when faced with the most importent challenge of his life, with the fate of the world at stake (since shnizel would have done horrible things to it if he wasnt stopped)
he chooses, not to attack shnizel, but to attack the UFN instead

thats not genius, thats retarded
he makes the battle ment to SAVE the world, much harder to pull off rather then making it easier by attacking shnizel alone
he doesnt want to save the world, and he doesnt want to fix the world
he wants to destroy it and recreate it
and all because of his own ego

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch spends most of the show stacking the odds in his favor in every single battle
taking every advantage he can get to make victory easier to achieve
then, when faced with the most importent challenge of his life, with the fate of the world at stake (since shnizel would have done horrible things to it if he wasnt stopped)
he chooses, not to attack shnizel, but to attack the UFN instead

thats not genius, thats retarded
he makes the battle ment to SAVE the world, much harder to pull off rather then making it easier by attacking shnizel alone

What if this is "Flawed" genius part I mentioned?

Like for example, somehow, even the smartest brainiac don't know 1 + 1 =2

[bladeofdarkness]

thats not flawed so much as ego-centric
which is a good enough reason to dislike it

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

thats not flawed so much as ego-centric
which is a good enough reason to dislike it

How do you know its ego-centric and not flawed? Did he even have any ego?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Cipher

How do you know its ego-centric and not flawed? Did he even have any ego?

the man who declares that he will destroy and recreate the world has no ego ?
really...
are you really going to try and argue that lelouch has no ego ?

and my main problem with lelouch's actions are rather simple
just answer a small question
how was attacking the UFN stated to help defeat shnizel ?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the man who declares that he will destroy and recreate the world has no ego ?
really...

"I destroy worlds, I create worlds" right? But this part was the conclusion. Somehow, he felt THAT satisfied? It was on the verge of his death, just exaggerating what he's done so he could feel a good death?

and my main problem with lelouch's actions are rather simple
just answer a small question
how was attacking the UFN stated to help defeat shnizel ?

He was a flawed dumb genius?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Cipher

"I destroy worlds, I create worlds" right? But this part was the conclusion. Somehow, he felt THAT satisfied? It was on the verge of his death, just exaggerating what he's done so he could feel a good death?

he said it in the first ep of season 1
and repeatedly stated it throughout the show after that

He was a flawed dumb genius?

thats not an answer to the question
how did attacking the UFN help deal with shnizel ?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he said it in the first ep of season 1
and repeatedly stated it throughout the show after that

hmm..maybe to act as motivation and to have greater confidence? Some people do warcries for morale...same thing?

thats not an answer to the question
how did attacking the UFN help deal with shnizel ?

It didn't. He thought it would. He was flawed.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Cipher

hmm..maybe to act as motivation and to have greater confidence? Some people do warcries for morale...same thing?

not really.
he expresses concern that the 108 dates sayako got him would get in the way of destroying and recreating the world
its an ego thing

It didn't. He thought it would. He was flawed.

you are right that it didnt
he didnt think it would
it was what he needed for his OTHER goal
zero-requiem
but since, unlike defeating shnizel, zero-requiem and all the deaths that followed from it were NOT necessary, it makes him a greedy idiot
which conflicts with his past characterization, and ended up making him kick start a world war for no reason

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not really.
he expresses concern that the 108 dates sayako got him would get in the way of destroying and recreating the world
its an ego thing


you are right that it didnt
he didnt think it would
it was what he needed for his OTHER goal
zero-requiem
but since, unlike defeating shnizel, zero-requiem and all the deaths that followed from it were NOT necessary, it makes him a greedy idiot
which conflicts with his past characterization, and ended up making him kick start a world war for no reason

Ok maybe he did have a really huge ego. A flaw?

[bladeofdarkness]

when it leads him to massacre people just to appease his ego, thats a flaw worthy of disliking
i dont hate him in general
but i did hate him in the last arc because his flaws were all there, but none of the redeeming qualities that would justify liking him beyond them (mortality pets, necessity, greater evil to overcome)

and i kinda have to go...
sorry