Hyouka - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

This is new to me; I had no idea there were rules when it comes to writing mysteries...

Yes, there are many. You can find several sets of them here:

http://www.mysterylist.com/declog.htm

My mom was a high school math teacher (now retired), and her classes made four different "math mystery" videos over the years. The production values were about like the ones in Class 2-F's movie.

[monir]

So can any of us (unspoiled ones) can actually solve this? I know I'm going to watch this episode again later.

[justsomeguy]

Let's see, the room is apparently sealed and locked, so the only way anybody can get in is with the master key, assuming that the door is not matched with any of the other keys. In order to do this, said person must grab the keys, run to Kaitou's room, and kill him and hack his hand off. All of this occurs quietly, so none of the other characters hear the murder. Cutting off somebody's hand is not immediately fatal, so it occurred after death, but for what purpose. Nevermind the body is in a position that indicates pain, and that Kaitou was alive when it happened, yet not screaming like crazy. The culprit must also have a very sharp knife and/or great physical prowess.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Yes, there are many. You can find several sets of them here:

http://www.mysterylist.com/declog.htm

Reading those, some of the rules are quite reasonable and in fact should be encouraged for writing, like those on accidental resolutions. Some however are quite stifling, and just serve to limit the creativity of a mystery (seriously, limiting mysteries to just murders isn't a good way to exercise creativity). Many of these "rules" can be circumvented and/or executed well depending on the skill and imagination of the writer if allowed to.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

http://www.mysterylist.com/declog.htm

Its quite interesting.... Now I know how some novelist make their amazing mind made crimes using the overused already techniques....

[Calca]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Let's see, the room is apparently sealed and locked, so the only way anybody can get in is with the master key, assuming that the door is not matched with any of the other keys. In order to do this, said person must grab the keys, run to Kaitou's room, and kill him and hack his hand off. All of this occurs quietly, so none of the other characters hear the murder. Cutting off somebody's hand is not immediately fatal, so it occurred after death, but for what purpose. Nevermind the body is in a position that indicates pain, and that Kaitou was alive when it happened, yet not screaming like crazy. The culprit must also have a very sharp knife and/or great physical prowess.

Big key I bet is the floor map. The map of the 1st floor is on the right while the 2nd is on the left when it's zoomed in. There's a reason it was shown for so long. Also, the right and left are connected by a hallway behind the stairs.

Also notice the grass was not trampled when they looked out the window where the body was so there was no window escape. There are many other windows in the vicinity though. Notice how the windows in the rooms before the locked door were already opened.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Reading those, some of the rules are quite reasonable and in fact should be encouraged for writing, like those on accidental resolutions. Some however are quite stifling, and just serve to limit the creativity of a mystery (seriously, limiting mysteries to just murders isn't a good way to exercise creativity). Many of these "rules" can be circumvented and/or executed well depending on the skill and imagination of the writer if allowed to.

I'm pretty sure most people just see them as guidelines. After all, rules are made to be broken, especially in writing . I do kinda wish some mystery authors stuck to them more often. There are some pretty awful mysteries out there that would've been better if they just stuck to some of the bigger guidelines.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Let's see, the room is apparently sealed and locked, so the only way anybody can get in is with the master key, assuming that the door is not matched with any of the other keys.

In my opinion, there are three big suspects right now. I suspect the fact that the black-haired girl knew exactly where the keys were and knew which keys to take without taking the master key. That being said, I could probably attribute that to convenience for the author. Other than that, the only person who should've known the existence of the master key is the black-haired boy that went with her, so he's suspect as well. That also makes the girl who went with the black-haired girl to get the master key after they regrouped suspect, because she shouldn't know that there was a master key in the first place unless she had already visited that room beforehand.

Edit: Well, I guess it isn't too absurd to say that it's obvious that there should be a master key with the other keys. If you look at it that way, none of this really meant anything. I'm just speculating now .

[FlareKnight]

I do think the floor map would be helpful, but really only if the map got translated. Though I'm bad with maps and geography so probably wouldn't help me much in figuring this out .

Suppose the directions they went in might help in guessing who had the best chance to kill and get back to their room soon enough. Now the dark haired girl went in the same direction as the victim, just on a different floor. If she carefully stole the key before she even went to her room would have had plenty of time. On the other hand she was back rather quickly so she either didn't actually check her area or isn't the killer. Plenty to suspect since she picked that place to check out, found the map, and the keys. Either a lazy writing effort to have her be the source of all information or something else.

Kind of lean towards the black-haired boy. He was the slowest to check his rooms. If he had killed the guy and chopped off a limb that would explain how it took him so long. Being one of only two that had seen the master key (and maybe even knew it existed) he's a pretty prime suspect.

No idea about motive since none of these people have any backstory.

But in the end will just have to see what Houtarou will come up with .

[j4c06]

Is there any reason those 2-F chicks are so cold and unfriendly? The script writer is supposedly the best friend of the second one, but she doesn't seem to care about the movie. And the "Empress" chick was assigned the movie project only two days ago, why at all? If she wasn't around before, it could have been better if someone from the filming crew would have taken over? Kind of puzzling.

Also, not surprising that the script is not finished, but what might being "in the wrong place at the wrong time" mean? (in the sms-conversation). And "it will not play out the way you intended"? Hmmm...

[Hyper]

Shaky camera, out-of-focus once in awhile, bad acting, and to top it off, Chihara Minori's deadpan voice. If they actually got Sugita to do the narration it would be perfect

About the question of why not just ask the author, Commie script says she collapsed, so I think Irisu is telling the Classic club a partial truth here. I guess she collapsed, but is not unconscious right now. For us viewers, the first scene show that the author is not completely incommunicable, assuming she is one of the two people chatting in the beginning (excluding Eru.)

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

What do you guys think about the beginning? At first, it seems as if it's Hongou apologizing to Irisu over not being able to finish the script, and Irisu contacting Chitanda for help. That being said, there are a couple of things the directing focused on: "Senpai" and "They might dance for you" (Using Mazui's script). It's pretty easy to guess that, if the person Hongou apologized to is Irisu, then the person that Irisu might be talking to is Oreki's sister.

I like your theory here. It does sound like Oreki's sister. Was it ever mentioned how old she is? If Irisu is a second year then it's a little of a scratch for them to know each other though.

In any case, as people have been pointing out, there're a lot of things that doesn't connect. The slight delay before Eba answered what kind of person Hougou is triggered an alarm in my head. Her answer also sounds like a sarcastic remark as well. My super wild guess is this movie we see so far is based on a "real" story and they're making this specifically to go get someone to solve it. A real murder sounds like it does not belong to Hyouka though.

Originally Posted by GMT

After the credits, the Classics Club learns that they've been invited to a private screening of The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Mystery (TODO: Make up better title.) Satoshi recognizes their host as VetinariIrisu who singlehandedly stopped the Apocalypse of Moe by arranging to have the Unseen University think that banishing K-On! back to their own reality was their idea.

You know, with a working title and the name KuIrisu, I'm so temped to make a joke with Mystery (Name subjected to change)

[Hiroi Sekai]

Friends, I have just experienced a captivating opening scene. There is no indication of what's going on and who exactly is involved, but everything about it from the sounds and atmosphere to the cream-of-the-crop background music gave it a chilling feel of something big to come.

And boy, was I glad I was right, as this entire episode screams mystery yet again. My mind raced with little thoughts as intrigue flowed through my veins. More vibrant colours to add to the spectrum of Hyouka eye colours. A new group of interesting characters that I want to know more about.

Of course, who can leave out the big mystery? The direction taken in that film's showing was genius; it blended together intentionally bad voice acting (which may be just as difficult for a VA that always goes for their best), smooth-as-butter camera movement, a chilling atmosphere (that actually is bathed in a generous amount of light) and the big abrupt ending brought about by an actually quite gruesome scene. The bad acting made it kind of less impactful, but that's the magic of it all.

Well then, shall we talk speculation?

"Who do you think the culprit is?", asked Irisu with a stern look on her darkened face.
"A little groundwork is in order first", I responded quickly, reaching for my book with the notes inside.

Notes:

Time of Death
- It is my speculation that the death occurred while everyone was searching their own rooms. The death was silent and unnoticed by the group, and the only period where this could have happened was after the separation and before the regrouping, as the room to the crime scene had been locked as well.

Cause of Death
- Right now, it's a toss up between suicide and murder, but murder seems to be the more logical explanation. Since Kaitou's arm had been cut off, he couldn't have done that post-mortem. Instead, he would have had to cut it off without screaming whilst still alive. Instead, it seems like someone caught him by surprise and silently ended him, most likely cutting off his arm afterwards. This is cemented by how there is no blood between the corpse and the arm, meaning that the cause of death could be anything other than a blood loss and shock from losing the arm, and the arm was placed there afterwards to throw off the scent. It could have been slow-acting poison from earlier, strangulation, blunt force trauma...anything silent.

The Crime
- So, how did Kaitou die silently in a room that only he had the key for? I take notice to two options: one is what appears to be a trapdoor next to the open safe, a set of irregularly placed steps up by the arm, and a hollow noise caused by Kaitou's stomps before the crime. There could be a trapdoor system set up that connects some or all of the rooms together. The second option is the master key that was left in the room. This could also be a possibility as the murderer escaped the scene and also managed to lock the door whilst leaving a key behind. That key might not even be Kaitou's, they all look bloody similar. The only apparent ways out are the window, door and "trapdoor" (if it is even a trapdoor).

Regarding on some earlier speculations, the floor map definitely plays a role as well. The building feels symmetrical as a whole, but minor breaks in the room layout differs in each area. There are also little openings everywhere that probably indicate windows. Thing is, I didn't see that many windows when they looked from the outside; could these be something else?

When it all comes down to it however, Kounosu seems the most suspect with the info at hand. She knew to search for the master key and immediately found the floor map, and she was the only one on Kaitou's side, while each group going to the left side paired up. When the door was locked, she also quickly offered to grab the master key; maybe Senoue tagging along wasn't part of her plan? In either case, from start to finish Kounosu leads the group to the places they go to. She distributes the keys, she suggests going to the house, and she takes initiative in grabbing the information needed.

It seriously bothers me that the words "you have everything you need to solve this" were uttered, because I'm not certain at this point. 4 AM is not the best time to think/write about this, will return to speculate further.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

My biggest problem with the whole concept of this "mystery" thrust upon the Classics Club is, why didn't someone in Class 2-F just ask Hongou who the culprit is? If there are already plenty of clues, as Isrisu asserts, then the author would obviously already know who the designated culprit is.

Okay, sure, she could be in a coma, but "falling ill" doesn't have the same implications as, say, she got "brain fever," or she got in an accident and is bandaged from head to toe.

So, for me, the real mystery is just that, why didn't someone ask just Hongou? Second to that, and perhaps even more importantly, why didn't Houtarou ask Isrisu this same question? And then come the mysteries of why are Isrisu and Eba now involved?

I started wondering about this as well. Here's my current thoughts: the script is not finished and there's only one day left on which they can do the filming (the coming Sunday). The script writer has fallen ill due to the stress - the class cannot force her to complete it. They need some way to complete the film without her. The first part of a "mystery" requires a murder and the rest is the detective coming to solve it and reveal the culprit. Maybe the class hope to use the "process" of solving the murder to help create an ad-lib solution and enable them to complete the filming. It's not so much the identity of the culprit that's the problem but the trail of clues and chain of reasoning that leads to the culprit.

Makes sense?

But yeah, why doesn't Houtarou object too...

[Jimmy C]

The thing is, considering the amount of texting between her and Irisu, it was well within the author's power to tell them, "[name here] is the killer." and let them figure out how to present the solution themselves.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

I started wondering about this as well. Here's my current thoughts: the script is not finished and there's only one day left on which they can do the filming (the coming Sunday). The script writer has fallen ill due to the stress - the class cannot force her to complete it. They need some way to complete the film without her. The first part of a "mystery" requires a murder and the rest is the detective coming to solve it and reveal the culprit. Maybe the class hope to use the "process" of solving the murder to help create an ad-lib solution and enable them to complete the filming. It's not so much the identity of the culprit that's the problem but the trail of clues and chain of reasoning that leads to the culprit.

Makes sense?

Now this is a theory I can find believable. The author had already decided who the culprit was, how and when the crime was commited, but got writer's block trying to come up with a believable way to get the culprit out of the locked room. She got so stressed about it she came down with brain fever and gave up, handing everthing over to Irisu (for some unknown reason).

So, chances are that Irisu already knows who the culprit is, but isn't telling just so, like you say, she can get Houtarou to solve the murder, thus enabling them to complete the movie.

But yeah, why doesn't Houtarou object too...

I think his resistance to Eru is wearing down. His objections to helping seem to be getting less and less adamant. Perhaps, without actually realizing it, he enjoys, if not looks forward to, being in her company.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

The thing is, considering the amount of texting between her and Irisu, it was well within the author's power to tell them, "[name here] is the killer." and let them figure out how to present the solution themselves.

I think she already did, if not the whole production company, at least Irisu. I think it would be a little ridiculous for the "actors" to not know which one of them was the culprit before shooting commenced.

[Jimmy C]

If they knew the identity of the killer already, they'd be able to finish the script themselves without involving outside help.

[j4c06]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

I think she already did, if not the whole production company, at least Irisu. I think it would be a little ridiculous for the "actors" to not know which one of them was the culprit before shooting commenced.

It may also be the case that the pre-planned culprit may not be presented as such in the end, for some reason - be it faulty logic on part of the writer, or some tangential circumstances connected or not connected to the filming but unrelated to the movie itself (like relationships and such).

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

If they knew the identity of the killer already, they'd be able to finish the script themselves without involving outside help.

That's not necessarily the case. A writer would presumably come up with characters, then pick one of the characters as the culprit and give him/her a motive. Then perhaps decide the method of the crime (gun, sword, axe, poison, etc.) and where it would take place.

And murdering the victim in a locked room is one thing, but explaining how the culprit was able to do so without being detected by the other members of the group is another. This has to be one of the most used tropes in detective mystery fiction. If their "writer" wasn't able to come up with a believable solution, most likely the other members of the crew wouldn't be able to either.

Originally Posted by j4c06

It may also be the case that the pre-planned culprit may not be presented as such in the end, for some reason - be it faulty logic on part of the writer, or some tangential circumstances connected or not connected to the filming but unrelated to the movie itself (like relationships and such).

You're right there. The writer could have (or more likely has) written herself into a locked room and can't figure a way to get out. I also hear that actors are a very temperamental bunch, so it certainly could be one of them raising a ruckus for some unknown reason.

[The Butcher]

God, Chitanda likes some horrible movies.

Anyways, this has to be the best episode of the series yet. Plus, it is the second 2-part episode arc if I remember correctly.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Let's see, the room is apparently sealed and locked, so the only way anybody can get in is with the master key, assuming that the door is not matched with any of the other keys.

...or through the window, after locking the door, then closing the window from outside and feigning innocence by entering the house through another room's window.

Originally Posted by papermario13689

When it all comes down to it however, Kounosu seems the most suspect with the info at hand. She knew to search for the master key and immediately found the floor map, and she was the only one on Kaitou's side, while each group going to the left side paired up. When the door was locked, she also quickly offered to grab the master key; maybe Senoue tagging along wasn't part of her plan? In either case, from start to finish Kounosu leads the group to the places they go to. She distributes the keys, she suggests going to the house, and she takes initiative in grabbing the information needed.

She also said to herself "I have a bad feeling about this" before entering the house, which wouldn't make sense if she were the culprit. Unless, by "bad feeling", she was referring to possible obstacles against her crime, which, however, would be too "out of the topic" for this sort of puzzle.

Clues are too limited, especially with crime method and the severed hand, but I guess I'll go with Jirou Sugimura, and how we see him inside some room(?) while responding to his companions' call. He was also the guy who set the region for their research.

The scriptwriter is supposedly well versed in mystery so inviting the Classics Club to create a more sound mystery (by solving the crime) for them seems a bit off. The no-mention of inquiring the scriptwriter is odd yeah.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Cipher

...or through the window, after locking the door, then closing the window from outside and feigning innocence by entering the house through another room's window.

However the grass is undisturbed. The only possibility through the window would be to climb up to the second floor window.

I think quiet girl, the one who seemed to know the most about the building, was the one directly above Kaitou's room, but I find it hard to believe that she would be able to silence a physically fit guy larger than herself in one strike.