2010-05-14, 16:45 | Link #2442 | |
I disagree with you all.
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On the other hand, their audience isn't that critical. So they can get away with hating gays but eating prawns. |
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2010-05-14, 17:32 | Link #2443 | ||
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2010-05-14, 17:51 | Link #2445 | |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
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If God is to interact with the natural world, his/her existence is by definition a matter of scientific enquiry. Nothing supernatural exists. As soon as anything "supernatural" interacts with the natural world (I'm thinking miracles here), it enters the domain of science and can be investigated using the scientific method. So the argument boils down to: no evidence thus far. And no evidence will come up. This is where the argument usually ends. I'll get a word salad explaining how science can't investigate god, something about emotions and transcendence thrown in, also something about the Nazis, Stalin and atheism with a touch of absolute morality. |
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2010-05-14, 17:51 | Link #2446 | |
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Location: Where Rei Ayanami is...or prolly dreaming.
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That's weird, I don't think even in the Old Testament, the Jews attacked the gentiles to save their souls. Joshua invaded Canaan and put his enemies to the sword to claim the promised land, I can't recall if he ever did it to save the gentile souls. Nor do I recall such during David's reign, or Solomon's, or any other King for that matter. Even the judges who fought for and defended Israel did not fight to save the gentiles' souls. They either conquered to gain the promised land or defended themselves from those who would take the promised land. Add to that the chastisement of God against Israel for disobeying him by letting Israel be conquered or subjugated by foreign powers. The saving of Gentile souls as a message began after the resurrection (Well you could include the visions of old prophets, where all nations bowed to God). So therefore, where after the resurrection of Jesus Christ was it taught to persecute non-Christians in order to save gentile souls in scripture? I have not encountered a teaching in the scripture of the New Testament wherein God (Jesus Christ) or even his apostles, much more Paul authorizing, directing, or abetting persecution of non-christians. But may be I am wrong, so cite your scriptural basis and supporting annotations of scholars on the matter.
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2010-05-14, 18:23 | Link #2447 | |||
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First, you'd have to be capable of reliably (in your own words) "detect" God. If you can do that, then you can scientifically observe God, test whatever hypothesis you have, and come up with conclusions. Until then, saying the "God question" is somehow scientifically answerable only you haven't find your answer yet is no different than simply saying God exists. They're both based more on faith than the scientific method. Quote:
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2010-05-14, 18:51 | Link #2448 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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The persecution and forced conversions of non-Christians began around the time the Roman Empire co-opted the religion for its own purposes. Prior to that, the Romans persecuted Christians for not affirming the godhood of the emperor or the supremacy of the state. You're right... there's little scriptural basis (other than the indirect example of the genocide of few "heathen" nations, okay because God directed it - as you say, not for saving because they weren't of the Chosen tribe anyway) for persecution, but interestingly, the fervent can usually find some text extract to support their actions against the "outsider". The persecutory/conversion nature carried on even after Rome fell through the acts of its descendant city-states (Spain, Portugal, France, England, etc) as a cultural weapon of war at the state level (convert or die) and a scapegoat mechanism at the local level (witch trials, etc). Jesus himself is quite the anomaly in the book with his teaching (gentle almost buddhist-nature remarks if we can trust the texts). One can argue all day about what Paul's interpretation and packaging for Gentile ears did with the religion. OTOH, its parent religion Judaism started out heavy on the "you're not a Chosen One, tough for you" and proceeded to mellow over the centuries. Islam (offshoot of the Judeo-Christian line) is more problematic when it comes to persecution of non-muslims, because as with the Bible, Koran scripts can be extracted to "justify" many unpleasant behaviors.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2010-05-14 at 19:23. |
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2010-05-14, 19:09 | Link #2450 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
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But then, I'm no Bible scholar and have no desire to become one just to win an internet argument. Quote:
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2010-05-14, 19:20 | Link #2451 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Aye, technically the thread probably shouldn't even exist as it's basically a "list" thread (see Forum Rules). As one can see by browsing the thread, its difficult to discuss comparatively... but one should be able to explain the latticework or underpinnings of a religion without getting too honked up. How religion gets *used* by people is even more difficult to dance with as a topic - as we can see above.
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2010-05-14, 19:20 | Link #2452 | |||
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Location: Where Rei Ayanami is...or prolly dreaming.
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Now if Christians want to obey and follow God, well and good. If they chose to pervert or disobey the teachings, that's their watch. Free will and all. Quote:
Though I have to say that Paul's view won out because of a vision by Peter found in the book of Acts. Truth is, he wasn't really a person who had a lot to say until after the good part of his ministries. He always needed the approval of Peter and James the Just (brother of Jesus). (Witherington III, Ben. New Testament History. 2001) Quote:
This is true especially when they "cut and paste" effectively leaving out the context. But that is why we have our free will, intellect, and reason. Its the information age, verify what one reads, think, discuss, decide.
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2010-05-14, 19:22 | Link #2453 | |
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2010-05-14, 19:29 | Link #2454 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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A good article to shed light on what the religion actually is about beyond the common misconceptions and how most Muslim-Americans feel when they hear these stories of terrorism caused by people claiming to be of their religion: http://www.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/0...ood/index.html |
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2010-05-14, 19:47 | Link #2455 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
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How about that? However, I think the main issue is the Old Testament, and the fact that Jesus (as far as I know) never said that many of its teachings no longer apply.
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2010-05-14, 19:55 | Link #2456 |
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Anh Minh you are now entering the issue, whether or not God's frame of mind is the same as humans, and therefore his acts were wrong, under human consideration.
An even better issue is whether or not your an atheist, because, as any atheist worth his salt knows (I was a former atheist) there is no objective morality or duties, that my friend, directly affects your contention as to whether or not God's action is atrocious - because the answer may make you look like a hypocrite. Apologists refer to it as the "Moral Argument" for God's existence. If you have followed Dawkin's works, he affirms this - human worth more specifically (Wolpert, Lewis. Six Impossible Things before Breakfast. London: Faber and Faber, 2006, p. 215). Friedrich Nietzsche realized it by posing the question who will comfort those who have killed God? (Paraphrase) Besides Anh Minh, if people don't want to follow authority that's their choice. It is quite sad that the Catholic Church gave in to these abuses. Abraham Lincoln put it well, and I paraphrase, you want to know a man's character? Give him power. The leaders of the church in those times showed their character. But such does not derogate to the fact that Christian scripture does not teach such actions. That vital distinction must be noted, for fairness' sake.
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2010-05-14, 19:58 | Link #2457 |
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Well, on the paper I'm Christian, but in fact I really am not religious.
I have this one theory though, that destiny exists. But don't read any further if you're not interested in a childish man's view on the world. Spoiler for Destiny exists because...:
Omg, I can't believe I just wrote that down.
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2010-05-14, 19:59 | Link #2458 | |||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Am I? When did that happen? Quote:
Also, do you contend that certain acts can be right if God does them, but wrong for everyone else? Quote:
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Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2010-05-14 at 20:28. |
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2010-05-14, 20:05 | Link #2459 | ||
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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