Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

Okay. Deadpool? If you're gonna prolong this shit, then at least drop the Shinn angle. At most, what Stella would've felt from his attack, was some heat, and the shrapnel hitting her piloting suit, which, I should point out, didn't actually hurt her because of how much bloody reinforcement she had. So she wasn't actually wounded by that attack, otherwise she would've bled out of the punctures.. So no, Shinn couldn't have killed her! Which means the only bloody likely culprit would be Kira!

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

It MAY have.

You can't prove it didn't.

Sorry, i dont NEED to prove it didn't, you need to prove it did since you are the one trying to disprove what's established as common fact sofar, you have yet to offer any proof except saying it MAY have

We covered this. It is possible to receive a fatal wound, followed by a non fatal wound, followed by death.

Yes, it's true, but it didn't happen in this case, how hard is that to understand?

Stella was perfectly fine before Kira drove his beam sabers into the triple chest-cannon's, and after, she was dying. it's not even 1 + x = 2, we're shown how she is engulfed in chain explosions inside her cockpit, it's 1 + 1 = 2.

Yet you are sitting here saying it's clearly 1 + 0,5 + 2.5 - 2 = 2

it's like saying someone didn't die from the grenade they got thrown in their face, but the Mosquito bite they got 2 seconds after which somehow killed them.

The doctor describes as "I have no idea how her body functions."

He physionomy isn't Natural.

The doctor doesn't know how to treat her withdrawal syndrome.

But we've seen people survive explosions in the cockpit before. Shit Stella herself survived the FIRST explosion in her cockpit.

Yes, under extreme plot-related circumstances, Kira(plotcon), Athrun(pure luck), Andrew(retcon), Mwu(retcon)

Which means the internal damage that DID in fact killed her did not NECESSARILY come from the last hit she took. It could have come from Shinn's attack.

No, she was fine from Shinn's attack, it simply smacked some debris into her pilot suit, she was fine after the Freedom's railcannon hit the Destroy aswell. Several explosions from all over though, that's a different case.

False equivalency. I am saying since we didn't see it, it didn't happen. You are saying since we didn't see it, it DID happen.

Cute try, but complete opposites.

Wow. sorry, LOL. no, it did happen, the show even shows how stuff blows up in her face several times over, the destroy even let's out a " final cry " by shooting off its mouth-cannon as a sign of defeat, that finished her and the destroy off, it's bloody symbolic.

There is nothing to misunderstand because there is nothing to understand. There is no evidence of any kind.

This isn't a matter of misinterpretting events. This is a matter of Me* trying to interpret events that didn't happen. Let us see which of these facts are untrue:

Glad we got that confirmed, moving on.

1) a. Stella was dying on the Minerva.
b. Stella wasn't fully healed when they arrived on the base.

a) Yup.
b) Stella wasn't recovered when they arrived on the moving base shown in the Stargazer OVA, but she was fully healed in episode 31 when she got out of the bed with no issues and showed no signs of remaining withdrawal symptoms at all, and gladly boarded the Destroy.

So, the conclusion is that she had enough time in her healing-bed to recover from the lack of healing-bed sleep on the Minerva. This is shown in episode 31.

2) a. Shinn physically hurt Stella.
b. Internal damage is invisible and can kill up to 10 hours later.

a) Stella's pilot suit absorbed all debris and said blast wasn't a blast, it was a flash of wind seeing how her cockpit got slashed open by the Impulse, again, no blast injury here or any injury at all judging from what's animated, no blood, no coughing, no wibbly wobbly at all.


See? Simple debris, no blast at all.


See? that is a blast.

3) a. The damage to the Destroy is surviveable.

Getting the cockpit slashed open? Yes.
Getting railgunned near the open cockpit? Yes.
Getting Beam saber'd while your three biggest and most powerful weapons are charging up and having them explode in your face? No.

as you can see here:

The beam cannon's explosion covered the cockpit area aswell, as shown earlier with the compartment above Stella in the cockpit exploding:


Later, with the Destroy defeated, you can once again see the sheer damage those explosions did,

Seeing how Stella was sitting right beneath them, and their said destruction caused explosions inside the cockpit, she clearly died from the shockwaves and the explosions in her face.

Go ahead, disprove any of them.

All right, there you go, try to disprove anything posted above, provide proof aswell, until you do that, you are done.


"Primary injuries are caused by blast overpressure waves, or shock waves. These are especially likely when a person is close to an exploding munition, such as a land mine. The ears are most often affected by the overpressure, followed by the lungs and the hollow organs of the gastrointestinal tract. Gastrointestinal injuries may present after a delay of hours or even days. Injury from blast overpressure is a pressure and time dependent function. By increasing the pressure or its duration, the severity of injury will also increase.
In general, primary blast injuries are characterized by the absence of external injuries; thus internal injuries are frequently unrecognized and their severity underestimated. According to the latest experimental results, the extent and types of primary blast-induced injuries depend not only on the peak of the overpressure, but also other parameters such as number of overpressure peaks, time-lag between overpressure peaks, characteristics of the shear fronts between overpressure peaks, frequency resonance, and electromagnetic pulse, among others. There is general agreement that spalling, implosion, inertia, and pressure differentials are the main mechanisms involved in the pathogenesis of primary blast injuries. Thus, the majority of prior research focused on the mechanisms of blast injuries within gas-containing organs/organ systems such as the lungs, while primary blast-induced traumatic brain injury has remained underestimated. Blast lung refers to severe pulmonary contusion, bleeding or swelling with damage to alveoli and blood vessels, or a combination of these. It is the most common cause of death among people who initially survive an explosion."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_injury

Relevancy?

Lots.

All events happened. All events are cannon. All events work together to form the cohesive "reality" for this fictional universe.

If Mu can live through the Strike being destroyed, Stella can live through this. And we know he can because he did.

But Mwu didn't live through the Strike being destroyed, When episode 49 of Gundam Seed aired, his helmet was floating in space, as Fukuda had planned.

This was later fixed in the DVD/BR/SE by a retcon, Here you go, i added a link for you aswell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity

I think the vagueness works better for the story than if it had been revealed to be Shinn all along.

Opinion

On the latter it makes Shinn more of a tragic figure, but it also makes him more foolish in a way and adds little.

Opinion about a nonexistant event

The former helps inform the themes of impulsiveness, of misinformation during war and of the pointlessness of revenge while still drawing parallels between Shinn and Kira. It just fits the show better.

Opinion based on your own opinion.

Destiny had potential, i'll give you that, but it was blown out of the water by Fukuda like Stella's life was blown away when Kira stabbed the destroy's beam cannons with his beam saber.

Honestly, it seems like you are unhappy about how Destiny played out and think you could've done a better job yourself, Congratulations. A cactus could've done a better job writing Destiny than Moro/Fuku.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Gonna stop you right there. If in two different scenarios you end up with the EXACT SAME CONSEQUENCE, then the difference between those scenarios is, by definition, inconsequential. It literally does not matter.

On the contrary, that Durandal could be implicated in both scenarios only strengthens the idea that he is the culprit.

Who said they did?

Did what? Have equal probability? You implied it, by arguing that an unknown character/cause of death has as much validity as a known character/cause of death even when the story never addressed those unknowns.

What? If one character is dealing with ambiguity and the other is dealing with cerainty then the two scenes are no longer comparable.

Except the ambiguity was never even addressed. Shinn has always believed that Kira killed Stella, and the story never gave any reason for him to doubt that. So there's no point in having any ambiguity there at all as neither Shinn nor Kira ever dealt with the so-called ambiguity of Stella's death.

But the explosion came from the inside, not out.

Which makes it even more dangerous to Stella.

What I am saying is that it also may not. There is plenty of evidence to suppport that someone in that situation may survive. Even ignoring the Neo instance, we still have PLENTY of examples of this to draw from.

Combined with the fact that she had other wounds that MAY (or may not) have killed her, it makes spotting the precise cause of death impossible.

Could be any or all of those factors. We just don't know.

I understand where you're coming from, really, but that is a pointless argument to make as, again, the show never addressed this ambiguity/vagueness that you say exists.

[Kirayuki]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Actually, the only thing that needs to happen is Shinn needs to believe it was Kira that killed her. Personally, I think it would be really awesome and tragic if Shinn were the one that dealt the mortal blow, but he makes the natural assumption that the one that destroyed the suit is the one that killed the pilot. Also goes hand in hand with how blind with rage he tended to be. Filled with grief and anger and hatred, he swears revenge without even considering other possibilities, let alone attempting to ascertain the truth.

It's simply better story telling.

P.S. And of course, you can't have it be revealed that it was Shinn that killed her. That would burst his bubble and take all of the fight right out of him, which under the right circumstances could be pretty cool, but not in a series where there's literally half a dozen characters waiting in the wings to take over his role for him.

Yes, you aren't wrong. However, the show doesn't even bother any attempt to counter/deny his accusation at all. And putting that into equation with what actually happened during the climax, it was clear as hell who should be considered the main culprit.

The show doesn't even slightly bother to convince viewers in any way that "Kira is not the killer".

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Which only proves the show doesn't CARE who did it.

Yes the show doesn't care, so it agreed with Shinn's accusation.

No closer than WE were.

Main Character's opinion > Random internet user

And until the RetCon airs, it will remain vague.

They CAN change it, but not at will. What they CAN do is say that they intended it to be clear. That, they can do more or less at will. It won't actually BE clear until it airs.

Nothing needs to be retconned, it was clear already.

Not quite. You have no idea what their intentions were. Characters are wrong all the time.

We know already because we managed to catch what the whole sequence meant.

The one who still have no idea is only you.

Number of people agreeing does not an argument make. Just not how the world works.

Your world works like that, SEED universe is not. Neither is ours.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

I think the vagueness works better for the story than if it had been revealed to be Shinn all along.

On the latter it makes Shinn more of a tragic figure, but it also makes him more foolish in a way and adds little.

The former helps inform the themes of impulsiveness, of misinformation during war and of the pointlessness of revenge while still drawing parallels between Shinn and Kira. It just fits the show better.

Misunderstandings (or a lack of understanding) and high emotions are a cornerstone of conflict, especially in Gundam Seed. The fact that Shinn didn't seek to have her examined to figure out what killed her shows that he didn't particularly care at the time who was responsible. Not that he didn't have reason to simply lay her to rest, since she'd been through enough and Zaft obviously couldn't be trusted to treat her body with dignity.

But the fact is he did jump to conclusions and seek a convenient scapegoat. He didn't blame Logos. He didn't blame Neo for breaking his promise and putting Stella in that situation in the first place. He immediately jumps to the conclusion that it's AA's and Freedom's responsibility, even though they're the least at fault of all parties involved, including Minerva and her crew.

Although that he seemed to be getting through to her just before the end would screw up his perceptions a bit.

As for his being foolish, even if he technically did kill her and blame someone else, even if he did trust a war criminal to keep his word, he'd still be less of a fool than Cagilli.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Keep in mind Shinn's attack merely exposed the cockpit. The attack that caused significant damage to the cockpit (with alarm's blaring and panels sparking and shrapnel on Stella's suit) was done by KIRA. And no. Not his final attack that destroyed the unit, but shortly after Neo inform's Shinn that Stella's piloting the Destroy, Kira flies in and railgun's it, causing much more significant damage than Shinn did.

So yeah, most of the damage was done by Kira.

It didn't "merely expose the cockpit". It inflicted numerous shrapnel wounds on Stella. That's why people think there's reason to believe he was the one that killed her, since he was the only one to inflict noticeable bodily harm on her. With the way shrapnel works, it wouldn't take much to tear up your insides, and considering Stella herself and her state of mind, injuries like that wouldn't really slow her down.

Think of a mad dog; you could do all kinds of damage to it, but short of destroying the brain or the heart, you won't be able to stop it until it bled out.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Think of a mad dog; you could do all kinds of damage to it, but short of destroying the brain or the heart, you won't be able to stop it until it bled out.

But she wasn't bleeding, at all, she even had a reinforced pilot suit. Even with most of the shrapnel taken off (By Shinn, one can assume) there was no blood or signs of shrapnel wounds at all.

Stella died from internal bleeding and blast injuries sustained from the Destroy exploding.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

But she wasn't bleeding, at all, she even had a reinforced pilot suit. Even with most of the shrapnel taken off (By Shinn, one can assume) there was no blood or signs of shrapnel wounds at all.

Stella died from internal bleeding and blast injuries sustained from the Destroy exploding.

Her suit was clearly punctured with shrapnel poking out of it in previous scenes. That there's no blood or holes might indicate that it's self-sealing, though I don't know if anyone's ever bothered to put into writing the properties and qualities of a MS Pilot's jumpsuit in any of the series (including the UC where pretty much anything of interest was thoroughly explained). You might think it's safe to assume there's some redundancy since they're fighting in space all of the time, but it could just as easily be that the designers figure that if something can damage a pilot's mech, it'd readily kill the pilot outright so why bother?

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Her suit was clearly punctured with shrapnel poking out of it in previous scenes. That there's noblood or holes might indicate that it's self-sealing, though I don't know if anyone's ever bothered to put into writing the properties and qualities of a MS Pilot's jumpsuit in any of the series (including the UC where pretty much anything of interest was thoroughly explained). You might think it's safe to assume there's some redundancy since they're fighting in space all of the time, but it could just as easily be that the designers figure that if something can damage a pilot's mech, it'd readily kill the pilot outright so why bother?

No, self-healing suits has never ever been established in CE, or hell, any Gundam-related work as far as i'm concerned (They do carry small patches applied to pilot suits to seal them if they get punctured, like Amuro and Quattro have done in UC and Luna did at the end of Destiny when she found Shinn, if i recall correct)

If anything, Shinn removed the outer layer of the reinforced Pilot suit, as you can see with the picture in my previous post, the pilot suit she has on there is different and less armored than the one in this picture:



Seeing how there is no blood, once again, it's safe to assume she didn't take any damage from the shrapnel being stuck in the pilot suit.

Spoiler for Patched helmet? for reference:

[CBredbeard]

All that technology and the best they can come up with is a bandaid?

That they chose not to show any blood is problematic. Obviously the suit was punctured, but it just barely stopped at her skin?

What are you supposed to think? That she has bits of medal impeded into her, but she's not actually hurt? She has tears streaming down her face and is going completely nuts, but only because of a few explosions happened around her and the words Neo spoke to her before she sortied? You know at one point she has upwards a dozen of visible fragments, many of which are in her hands and arms, but there not being any blood means she wasn't wounded?

Shinn slashes her cockpit open and shrapnel is impeded into her shoulders, arms, and chest. Kira uses his railguns, and she uses her arms to shield herself from the next round. If she wasn't hurt by the first round, why would she protect herself as a reflex the second time around?

There should be blood, at the very least from the wounds on her arms and hands, but there isn't.

P.S. I don't think that suit is any different from the one she usually wears, except for the pauldrons.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

All that technology and the best they can come up with is a bandaid?

That they chose not to show any blood is problematic. Obviously the suit was punctured, but it just barely stopped at her skin?

Indeed, since it shows no blood, it's hard to see how injured she was, seeing how they show no injury at all, one can assume there is none, atleast nothing major they felt was worth showing.

What are you supposed to think? That she has bits of medal impeded into her, but she's not actually hurt? She has tears streaming down her face and is going completely nuts

Yes, Stella has been established as going nuts throughout the show, having her cockpit slashed open can't really help her already unstable mental health.

but only because of a few explosions happened around her and the words Neo spoke to her before she sortied? You know at one point she has upwards a dozen of visible fragments, many of which are in her hands and arms, but there not being any blood means she wasn't wounded?

I'm not going to deny the possibility of her being hurt, but seeing how there are no wounds nor blood, it's pretty safe to assume she wasn't seriously hurt from it, her being scared out of her mind is an entirely different case though.

Shinn slashes her cockpit open and shrapnel is impeded into her shoulders, arms, and chest. Kira uses his railguns, and she uses her arms to shield herself from the next round. If she wasn't hurt by the first round, why would she protect herself as a reflex the second time around?

Why would she protect herself as a reflex the second time around? Her cockpit was breached, the most human action she could do there was to prepare herself for being injured, which she did by raising up her arms and trying to cover herself.

There should be blood, at the very least from the wounds on her arms and hands, but there isn't.

Indeed, it isnt, it's hard to prove there was any injury sustained from that seeing how the show never left any implication there was, if anything, there should be blood when Shinn removed them if there was a wound under them.

P.S. I don't think that suit is any different from the one she usually wears, except for the pauldrons.

we can also see that without the shoulder pauldrons, the pilot suit has some protection around the chest area aswell.

Honestly, i think we can both agree that the animation regarding the shrapnel is inconsistant, seeing how one close up shows the debris as being shallow:

while the other one shows debris the size of her hand being lodged into her arm:


i'm going to leave the debris discussion with the following:
Stella might've taken some injury from the debris, but not enough damage that the animators felt it was needed to show the viewer the amount of damage she sustained, seeing how the outcome would've been the same in the end with Kira finishing her off.

TL;DR: The injuries she might/might've not sustained from the debris wasn't enough to mortally wound her.

[monster]

I have a suspicion that the no-blood thing is just them trying not to "ruin" Stella's body/corpse, kind of like when Aerith from Final Fantasy 7 died. (Of course, FF7 doesn't have blood at all, at least, none that I can recall, but yeah.)

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by monster

I have a suspicion that the no-blood thing is just them trying not to "ruin" Stella's body/corpse, kind of like when Aerith from Final Fantasy 7 died. (Of course, FF7 doesn't have blood at all, at least, none that I can recall, but yeah.)

Probably, but you're not really allowed to bring up things like censorship or artistic license. There needs to be an in-universe explanation for the things we see. Like maybe the suit is self-sealing (which actually exists in real-life) or something like that. Rationalizing the irrational.

Of course, some people will say it's all quantum and so it makes sense, because someone with a degree somewhere said it does.

[Aquaman OS]

The thing is Kira clearly causes more damage in both his attacks then Shinn does in his one.

Kira's railgun causes explosions in the cockpit and sets off alarms. Shinn's does not.

Kira's saber attack blows a gigantic hole in the Destroy's cockpit area. Shinn's only causes a smaller gash.

[T-T-Thunder!]

[The American Average]

^ that video always gets me good. "I'll help you... Help you Die!"

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Sorry, i dont NEED to prove it didn't, you need to prove it did since you are the one trying to disprove what's established as common fact sofar, you have yet to offer any proof except saying it MAY have

But that is the argument. The argument is that none of this is a "IS" it's all a "MAY".

I'm not TRYING to prove things. I am merely pointing out none of these events have a guaranteed outcome.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Yes, it's true, but it didn't happen in this case, how hard is that to understand?

It... wait for it... MAY have happened in this case.

We have no proof otherwise. Were it impossible to happen, then we'd have a guarantee. Since it IS possible, then we have an uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Stella was perfectly fine before Kira drove his beam sabers into the triple chest-cannon's

By perfectly fine you mean crying, hurt with shrapnel protuding from her body?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

it's like saying someone didn't die from the grenade they got thrown in their face, but the Mosquito bite they got 2 seconds after which somehow killed them.

People have survived grenades you know...

Originally Posted by Znozzy

The doctor doesn't know how to treat her withdrawal syndrome.

Which is a fine idea but not what was presented by the show. The show has the doctor describing her body as fundamentally different from a Naturals or a Coordinators.

TODAY we have drugs that make people more physically fit. Do you think the Extended program doesn't make them more physically fit?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Yes, under extreme plot-related circumstances, Kira(plotcon), Athrun(pure luck), Andrew(retcon), Mwu(retcon)

Were any of these non cannon? Were any of the writers of this show NOT PRIVY to the other? Were any of these internall inconsistent with the other events?

You want more? In the exact same episode we have Stella dying, we Neo shot down, surviving the incredible crash and either being hit with a shockwave to hard it LAUNCHED him clear off the wreckage of his mobile suit and face first into the floor, or he fell off of it while his mobile suit was still in mid air. And he LIVED. AND we get our first major push that he is indeed Mu, guy who took a Positron Cannon and walked.

We also have Sting lose his propulsion system, have his mobile suit cut in half and BOTH HALVES explode IN MIDAIR. And he STILL lived.

And you are seriously going to try and say that a litle explosion above her head is 100% unsurviveable. In a show, nay an EPISODE, where stuff like THAT happens?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

No, she was fine from Shinn's attack, it simply smacked some debris into her pilot suit, she was fine after the Freedom's railcannon hit the Destroy aswell.

Oh goody, you must have some sort of X-Rays from her to prove she didn't have any internal damage from either attack?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

b) Stella wasn't recovered when they arrived on the moving base shown in the Stargazer OVA, but she was fully healed in episode 31

Oh excellent, you must have the medical journal on the exact physionomy of a second stage biological computer and the long term effects of not going into maintenance over an extended period of time then?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

a) Stella's pilot suit absorbed all debris

Again, we have evidence of this?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

But Mwu didn't live through the Strike being destroyed, When episode 49 of Gundam Seed aired, his helmet was floating in space, as Fukuda had planned.

Do you go through Seed pretending Andrew died and Dearka never defected? Do you watch Seed Destiny assuming Athrun has a fake arm and the Freedom is piloted by a ghost?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Opinion

Yup. The hint there was "I think". Or the earlier post where I specifically stated what was fact (the situation is vague) and what was opinion (this was done on purpose).

Very perceptive though. Good work!

Originally Posted by monster

On the contrary, that Durandal could be implicated in both scenarios only strengthens the idea that he is the culprit.

But I'm not arguing he isn't the culprit. I am arguing the identity of the culprit is actuall inconsequential to the story.

It IS inconsequential to the story. Kira never finds the proof.

Originally Posted by monster

Did what? Have equal probability? You implied it,

Ambiguity implies that neither factor have 100% chance, not that they all have the SAME chance.

Originally Posted by monster

Except the ambiguity was never even addressed. Shinn has always believed that Kira killed Stella, and the story never gave any reason for him to doubt that. So there's no point in having any ambiguity there at all as neither Shinn nor Kira ever dealt with the so-called ambiguity of Stella's death.

But that IS the point.

Someone tries to kill Lacus. Circumstancial evidence points to Durandal but it is vague. Kira decides to play it safe and look for hard truth.

Someone kills Stella (Shinn's Lacus). Circumstacial evidence points to Kira but it is vague. Shinn (Kira's analogue) decides NOT to play it safe and instead swears revenge.

The fact that ONE character deals with the ambiguity and the other ignores the ambiguity IS the point. Shinn and Kira go through largely the same beats in the story (well, Shinn also has to split his time mirroring Athrun), expecially with Stella/Lacus (Members of opposing team, originally thought to be civilians, returned to the bad guys against their captain's wishes causing only minor punishment for it...). This is just another example.

Originally Posted by Kirayuki

Yes the show doesn't care, so it agreed with Shinn's accusation.

You might want to look up "doesn't care." It doesn't mean "silent agreement."

Originally Posted by Kirayuki

Main Character's opinion > Random internet user

Impartial, omniscient observer > impulsive child

Originally Posted by Kirayuki

Your world works like that, SEED universe is not. Neither is ours.

Did you just claim to live in a universe where opinions change reality JUST TO DISAGREE?

I mean, I can conceptually understand that people often let their personal feelings control their arguments and even up going contrary to a person just because they don't like the person and not on the basis of the argument but... This is a bit far than normal, isn't it?

I mean you just made the claim that your opinion is nothing but following a large group of people. I'm fairly certain (or, should I say, I really hope) that's not what you MEANT, but that IS what you said. Do people just not read their own arguments on the internet?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Seeing how there is no blood, once again, it's safe to assume she didn't take any damage from the shrapnel being stuck in the pilot suit.

There's not blood from ANY wound. Whatever killed her was internal, so observing her lack of external mark is kinda silly.

If she HAD some sort of external damage it wouldn't BE vague.

Btw, I do like that Shinn went into the cockpit of the very unstable Destroy, picked out the debris (which were either not hurting her at all and thus a waste of time, or were hurting her and thus incredibly dangerous to remove), took off her helmet and unzipped her shirt enough for him to see her cleavage BEFORE dragging her down and trying to talk to her...

Sorry, bad animation decisions crack me up.

[Rising Dragon]

You keep spouting off that people have survived such and such explosion, but the problem with such comparisons here is that, well... Stella didn't survive such and such explosion. So why do you keep bloody bringing it up?

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You keep spouting off that people have survived such and such explosion, but the problem with such comparisons here is that, well... Stella didn't survive such and such explosion. So why do you keep bloody bringing it up?

Stella died of internal damage caused by a wound so slight no one else on the show has ever died from one of this magnitude.

Was it because of her previous problems as an Extended? Was it a combination of all factors? Was it Shinn seemingly non lethal attack or Kira's seemingly non lethal attack?

You CAN'T know for sure. Which is why it is vague.

[Rising Dragon]

Vague hell. It's a hell of a lot more likely than anything you've spouted off so far. How about you offer some proof to your claims like everyone else has for theirs? So far your argument has amounted to "but but but it couldn't have been that!" and its getting stale.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Vague hell. It's a hell of a lot more likely

Which doesn't preclude something from being vague.

From a "realistic" standpoint, it is a lot more likely than none of her wounds alone would kill her but that ALL of her wounds together caused her death.

But we aren't talking about likely. We are talking about CERTAINTY. And there is none.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

So far your argument has amounted to "but but but it couldn't have been that!" and its getting stale.

No my argument has ALWAYS mean "It doesn't HAVE to be that." From the very first post to this one. It hasn't changed, even though it has been misunderstood repeatedly.

Which is the whole POINT of something being vague. It means "not certain." It means "not 100%" It means "There are other possible scenarios that lead to the same end result." It means "I CAN be that, but it can ALSO be something else."

Proving that other people can survive worse IS the proof you are asking for.