K-On! - Episode 12 [FINALE] Discussion / Poll

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

However, and I cannot continue to stress this enough and also continue to hope people will finally just get it, I felt the series fell short in capturing my imagination and long term interest even considering what it was in a moe-driven slice of life comedy. What people don't seem to get is that I AM basing my impressions on what the show is presenting me with, be it 4Koma style gags, moe, or attempted feel good atmosphere and let me just say that as the show went on it continued to feel rehashed and uninspired and most attempts to give a given scene an atmosphere often felt forced. There's only so many times some of us can see Mio cowering in a corner after some potentially embarassing (for her) or startling Ritsu does in her presence before you start to yawn a little. There's only so many times you can see Azusa put on those cat ears before it stops seeming cute and ends up just feeling patronizing. There's only so many times they can point out that Yui and Ui are an "odd couple" and yet still manage to get along as sisters......

But I don't understand what we're supposed to do with this argument. You say "it felt rehashed, uninspired, and forced". Okay, great. It doesn't seem like everyone felt the same way, and/or they just didn't weigh that so highly in their value chain. You can keep on repeating "I knew what it was but I still didn't like it!" until you're blue in the face, but what is anyone supposed to do about that? The only answer I can think of is "I'm sorry you felt that way; I hope you'll have better luck finding a show you enjoy next time." Is that what you're after?

I can't validate your complaint because it's entirely personal. Some others may have felt that way and some others didn't. People can offer theories as to why you may have gotten certain impressions that they didn't get, but who knows. I mean, I could ask "so what are some examples of moe slice-of-life shows that you loved?", so that we could have a comparison? But if you're going to insist "the problem's not with me, so it must have been with the show!" but others don't see the big deal, where does that get us? No one can prove your personal opinions wrong, but they can't agree that they're right either if they didn't feel the same way. So it's a stalemate.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Another way to put it is that everyone brings their own baggage of what is important to them to a series and that will affect their enjoyment. Comparing metrics or "baggage" is useful for getting an idea of how well-rounded your own metrics are. Shooting at everyone whose metrics don't exactly match your own isn't very useful.

Yes -- exactly this, but flipped from the other angle. Well put. Being disappointed is, well, disappointing -- but that doesn't mean the show did something wrong. It's about your metrics. When two people measure the same show using different metrics, they're going to arrive at different conclusions, and that's okay.

[Child_of_Sierra]

I did say they were not stupid. They can certainly phrase their arguments better than I can.

If I follow what you say about rating then it is perfectly natural for someone to rate a show like gundam to be bad because he likes comedy more and finds the action and mecha (integral parts of the genre) to be pointless violence.

Yet most followers of the genre would find this type of criticism to be somewhat unfair because the show was never meant to be the former and all about the later.

So i guess my gripe is that people tend to use a similar style of criticism for this show that while valid is really rather uh clueless.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Tamad

Now trying to compare BECK to K-ON! is just silly. Are you saying it's unreasonable to think music wouldn't be involved at all after watching the trailer? I sure as hell didn't think "hey this anime looks like a fun little slice of life comedy but music looks like it'll definetely be an afterthought.

Not seeing concert footage in the PV should have been a tip off as to which side of the fence this one was going. That wasn't even a long PV. You saw a moe female with a guitar, knowing who buys KyoAni merchandise and thought that this was going to be a serious music title? In a recession?

Music wasn't an afterthought. You got 2 music videos (one being the ED animation), 1 insert song and 2 versions of one song and 2 versions of the OP in a 13 episode title. That's was pretty good. You also got all those instruments drawn very well in the title with one manufacturer (Fender) commenting about the show.

IIRC Beck didn't get that much attention from a manufacturer.

Using the metric thingy that they are talking about above, I saw the PV and immediately thought Linda Linda Linda when hearing that it's about high school girls and a music club.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But I don't understand what we're supposed to do with this argument. You say "it felt rehashed, uninspired, and forced". Okay, great. It doesn't seem like everyone felt the same way, and/or they just didn't weigh that so highly in their value chain. You can keep on repeating "I knew what it was but I still didn't like it!" until you're blue in the face, but what is anyone supposed to do about that? The only answer I can think of is "I'm sorry you felt that way; I hope you'll have better luck finding a show you enjoy next time." Is that what you're after?

I can't validate your complaint because it's entirely personal. Some others may have felt that way and some others didn't. People can offer theories as to why you may have gotten certain impressions that they didn't get, but who knows. I mean, I could ask "so what are some examples of moe slice-of-life shows that you loved?", so that we could have a comparison? But if you're going to insist "the problem's not with me, so it must have been with the show!" but others don't see the big deal, where does that get us? No one can prove your personal opinions wrong, but they can't agree that they're right either if they didn't feel the same way. So it's a stalemate.


Yes -- exactly this, but flipped from the other angle. Well put. Being disappointed is, well, disappointing -- but that doesn't mean the show did something wrong. It's about your metrics. When two people measure the same show using different metrics, they're going to arrive at different conclusions, and that's okay.

Basically that and I want to make sure we're all on the same page here. There seems to be an attempt to label the disappointed and critical crowd as people that either:

a) "Didn't get it"
b) Should have read the source to know what to expect
c) Aren't rating the show on the right grounds for what it is trying to be
d) All of the above

That's just not the case for all or from what I've seen many and I'd kind of like to (but don't demand to) know where it's coming from and what the rationale behind it is.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Basically that and I want to make sure we're all on the same page here. There seems to be an attempt to label the disappointed and critical crowd as people that either:

a) "Didn't get it"
b) Should have read the source to know what to expect
c) Aren't rating the show on the right grounds for what it is trying to be
d) All of the above

That's just not the case for all or from what I've seen many and I'd kind of like to (but don't demand) to know where it's coming from and what the rationale behind it is.

Well, it seems simple to me. It's because many of the people who are disappointed are labeling it "the show's fault". But, in a global sense, this cannot be. If two people watch the same show and arrive at very differing impressions, the difference is not the show, it's the people viewing it. So, when two people watch the same anime but arrive at different value judgements, one can only assume that they must have been looking at the anime from a different perspective or have differing values. And so people grasp at straws to try to understand what it is about that person that makes them different -- not necessarily wrong, but different. Because after all, it does stand to reason that if you did happen to have the same valuations as those who enjoyed the show, you probably would have enjoyed it too. In all cases -- and yes, I'm going to say it -- the show "is what it is". Our perspectives are all that differ. Having these discussions is as much about understanding the show as it is about understanding each other.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, it seems simple to me. It's because many of the people who are disappointed are labeling it "the show's fault". But, in a global sense, this cannot be. If two people watch the same show and arrive at very differing impressions, the difference is not the show, it's the people viewing it. So, when two people watch the same anime but arrive at different value judgements, one can only assume that they must have been looking at the anime from a different perspective or have differing values. And so people grasp at straws to try to understand what it is about that person that makes them different -- not necessarily wrong, but different. Because after all, it does stand to reason that if you did happen to have the same valuations as those who enjoyed the show, you probably would have enjoyed it too. In all cases -- and yes, I'm going to say it -- the show "is what it is". Our perspectives are all that differ. Having these discussions is as much about understanding the show as it is about understanding each other.

That makes sense to me. More sense then you could imagine actually seeing as I've made the exact same point in other forums myself.

[Kudryavka]

T'was a nice ending. The kind of ending I see in almost every cartoon with a definite end, but hey, it is a pretty good type. Maybe that's why it's done so much.
And for the Extra episode, we have to go to TBS's site to watch it?

[Tamad]

Originally Posted by orion

Not seeing concert footage in the PV should have been a tip off as to which side of the fence this one was going. That wasn't even a long PV. You saw a moe female with a guitar, knowing who buys KyoAni merchandise and thought that this was going to be a serious music title? In a recession?

Music wasn't an afterthought. You got 2 music videos (one being the ED animation), 1 insert song and 2 versions of one song in a 13 episode title. That's was pretty good. You also got all those instruments drawn very well in the title with one manufacturer (Fender) commenting about the show.

IIRC Beck didn't get that much attention from a manufacturer.

Using the metric thingy that they are talking about above, I saw the PV and immediately thought Linda Linda Linda when hearing that it's about high school girls and a music club.

No, I never, ever thought it was going to be a serious music show a la Beck, seems you seem to like comparing it to that. Knowing full well who Kyoani is and what they're capable of, I went into the show expecting comedy on the musical side of things along with a few concerts here and there. Like I mentioned before, I've always thought that episodes like five (Sawako's introduction) and eight (Freshman reception) are exactly the kind of unique and funny show it can be, and proved that it does know its potential. I was hoping for comedy that took advantage of the fact that it's about four girls in a band, but instead they decide to be just like every other generic slice of life out there, to the point of even having two nearly identical and mediocre beach episiodes.

When they did try to add some seriousness and drama, I welcomed it with open arms. Did it feel out of place and forced? Yes it did, hell we all know they could have done a lot better with it... some of us even wish they never existed it. I welcomed it because it was a nice change of pace for a show that was really dwindling at the time. I like the show, but I'm not going to deny that the goods parts are few and far between.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, it seems simple to me. It's because many of the people who are disappointed are labeling it "the show's fault". But, in a global sense, this cannot be. If two people watch the same show and arrive at very differing impressions, the difference is not the show, it's the people viewing it. So, when two people watch the same anime but arrive at different value judgements, one can only assume that they must have been looking at the anime from a different perspective or have differing values. And so people grasp at straws to try to understand what it is about that person that makes them different -- not necessarily wrong, but different. Because after all, it does stand to reason that if you did happen to have the same valuations as those who enjoyed the show, you probably would have enjoyed it too. In all cases -- and yes, I'm going to say it -- the show "is what it is". Our perspectives are all that differ. Having these discussions is as much about understanding the show as it is about understanding each other.

Well you make it sound logical, but then I thought to myself....

Yeah, as the saying goes... "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Yes, you can look at it this way.

But then what determines greatness? When someone comes up to me and gives me a movie saying "It's a great American classic!" What does that actually mean? Because with your logic, we could consider just about anything to be great.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But then what determines greatness? When someone comes up to me and gives me a movie saying "It's a great American classic!" What does that actually mean? Because with your logic, we could consider just about anything to be great.

General consensus is what determines quality, usually.

There are other, objective, factors, but in the end it comes largely down to personal enjoyment.

Of course, if you were talking about, like, the artistic quality of a story, I'm sure there are people more qualified than me who would like to explain that...

[Tamad]

"Greatness" is just another term that can be viewed at along the same plain as a word like "overrated". It's all in the majority. If millions and millions of people love something to death, it's going to be labeled as "great", whether or not you agree with them or not.

So basically greatness only exists if you believe it does.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Well you make it sound logical, but then I thought to myself....

Yeah, as the saying goes... "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Yes, you can look at it this way.

But then what determines greatness? When someone comes up to me and gives me a movie saying "It's a great American classic!" What does that actually mean? Because with your logic, we could consider just about anything to be great.

EXACTLY!!! "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

What matters most in entertainment isn't whether or not "it's Good (TM)", it's whether or not you enjoy it! What people think of as "greatness" is only a way of encapsulating what people have agreed, over time, remain as enjoyable, worthwhile shows. So, when watching anime, you shouldn't focus on "greatness", but simply on whether or not you enjoy it. If that enjoyability holds up for many people over future generations, then it people will call it "a classic". It's only a way of qualifying and quantifying the factors that seem to contribute to mass enjoyment of a work. But even if you enjoy a show that isn't eventually considered "Great" by the majority, it doesn't change a thing about the enjoyment you feel in that moment. Enjoying a show is, really, all that matters, and understanding what it is that caused you to enjoy (or not enjoy) that thing helps us find other things we'll like.

(And yes, see also above. )

[yezhanquan]

Alas, if you like a commercial product, you do have to hope that it sells well, so that the company doesn't pull the plug on it.

[arkxkra]

The finale is very good, I love how to carry out the story , the feeling is very good especially the last "concert", I mean keionbu stage performance.
too fast to end, can't get enough of K-On, I want more!!!.

Now I think Ui quite smart, just teach Yui abit guitar know how to play, are Hirasawa's family are genius (?).

Looking forward to the extra episode, but one extra episode is not enough....

[Kouvley]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Why should anyone have to constantly lower their standards and expectations in order to enjoy a show? I'm still not getting this argument that seems to imply that because it's slice of life that it somehow makes everything disappointing about this series okay.

I was half joking when I made that remark
I actually agree with some of your criticisms of this show.

As for lowering expectations to enjoy a show, I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as your expectations don't fall below your personal threshold of "ok" show into "bad" show territory. That is the sign for me to drop a show.

Seeing as you've watched all the way to the end of K-on! I can only assume the latter didn't happen so how about posting what you did enjoy about this show that kept you watching? It would make a nice change.

I think relentlessflame just about covered anything else I wanted to say and probably in a much more comprehendable manner.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

EXACTLY!!! "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

What matters most in entertainment isn't whether or not "it's Good (TM)", it's whether or not you enjoy it! What people think of as "greatness" is only a way of encapsulating what people have agreed, over time, remain as enjoyable, worthwhile shows. So, when watching anime, you shouldn't focus on "greatness", but simply on whether or not you enjoy it. If that enjoyability holds up for many people over future generations, then it people will call it "a classic". It's only a way of qualifying and quantifying the factors that seem to contribute to mass enjoyment of a work. But even if you enjoy a show that isn't eventually considered "Great" by the majority, it doesn't change a thing about the enjoyment you feel in that moment. Enjoying a show is, really, all that matters, and understanding what it is that caused you to enjoy (or not enjoy) that thing helps us find other things we'll like.

(And yes, see also above. )

I posted the same question in the other thread we made, so I'll wait on a full response for a little bit, but I will say one thing here before I go.

Of course enjoyment is the primary objective of entertainment (Well unless you are making the product, in which case your objective is to screw everything in the name of $$). While I do enjoy offering criticism for the various shows I watch, it is really something I could care less about when I just want to sit down one night and enjoy a couple of animes.

[yezhanquan]

If a show have moments that get a "WTF?" from me, it is not bad by default. The next reaction is to pinpoint what it was which got the exclamation from me. If it stretches my understanding on a topic, it's good. If it's a fault, that's a thumb down.

On the other hand, shows that are (to me) WTF-free may not be good. They're average at the very least, but probably not much more.

[Tatiana Razajev]

Originally Posted by orion

Music wasn't an afterthought. You got 2 music videos (one being the ED animation), 1 insert song and 2 versions of one song and 2 versions of the OP in a 13 episode title. That's was pretty good.

Exactly, it's not that the song variety in K-ON! was bad. It just that they decided to treat the songs as special events as opposed to an everyday occurrence. Hence why we didn't get a song played every single episode.

Granted "special" can be partially subjective. For certain the members of the band itself would consider the time spent playing together to be a special event. However an outsider may not.

On a side note, when it comes to those series that play a song every single episode. In the case of some of those series, the songs are treated more like "weapons" than anything else.

That and sometimes it feels like the only reason a song gets played during the episode is to fulfill some quota. Kind of like how a monster of a week series must have a monster appear each week just for heck of it.

[jeffp]

While I agree that there was some odd animating in the ending concert, I have to say the Haruhi concert scene also had its share of odd looking animation as well. Both of them kinda bothered me, but in all I enjoyed this ending. Also, since there seems to be some great debate going on about this, I came into this show with no pretenses or assumptions. Just picked it up on a whim.

I like how the series went full circle, going back to the first episode with her dialogue to herself and also going back to their first concert together by ending with Fuwa Fuwa Time. I really actually would have liked to hear another new song, but since it's the "final episode," I really don't think they could have ended on any song other than Fuwa Fuwa Time and gotten the same effect.

What really got me is when Mugi started playing again after they had finished the song. I'm not sure why, but that moment got me feeling warm and fuzzy inside, and for me, that's what really sealed the deal on this episode for me. Also, Mugi in that blue dress was pretty hot. I'm also a fan of ponytails.

[Ithekro]

While there is alway point of view in people's opinions, generally when something is really bad or really good, even those that like or dislike something will agree to those facts. A Superior movie will generally be classed as a superior movie even by those people that didn't like it for one reason or another. In the same line of reasoning, a really, really bad movie will generally be universally acknowledged as being a bad movie. But there will still be people that like the movie, for one reason or another (usually because it is so bad its funny). Several Cult Movies are really bad films that have following because the movie is just so bad it is funny.

There are probably anime that fit these two catagories, but most fall somewhere inbetween. K-On is definately in the middle group. It isn't bad, but it is not the best thing ever producted either.