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View Poll Results: Who is your Favourite SHUFFLE! girl? | |||
Asa | 122 | 43.88% | |
Kaede | 68 | 24.46% | |
Kareha | 9 | 3.24% | |
Lisianthus | 16 | 5.76% | |
Mayumi | 8 | 2.88% | |
Nerine | 30 | 10.79% | |
Primula | 25 | 8.99% | |
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll |
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2006-11-13, 19:20 | Link #741 | ||
SharpenerOfTheBoxcutter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: where Grudge is Greatest, Rancour Endless and Malice Eternal(at school^^;;)
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Where Rin's feelings set in stone to be for Asa the day he was born or not? Which one is it? Let's bring up Sia to the table. What if I argue that Rin's human heart is swayable? As much as you argue that Rin liked Asa from the very beginning of his existence, what happened between Rin and Sia would be proof that you are wrong wouldn't it? Rin's feelings are apparently swayable. And Asa did do things to sway those feelings, at the same time treacherously pretending to support Kaede. |
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2006-11-13, 21:30 | Link #742 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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By the time Rin and Kaede first met Asa, R&K had already been through her realization that she had been erroneously mistreating Rin and she was dedicated to him -- its the main reason she *started* to learn to cook. Rin's dedication to Kaede is why he was so protective of her, why he waited for her when she attended cooking club. Asa was jealous that such a person could exist. It isn't explicit in the story and we might infer that Asa's desire for Rin and manipulation (there was inference that Kaede was invited over to practice cooking and oh yeah, bring Rin too). Asa seemed to be okay with just liking Rin from the side though she pretty aggressively strutted around him hoping he'd notice her. When he did, she lunged and we got the 4 or 5 episodes of Asa doing her "Kaede who?" routine until at the last few seconds admitting she'd been really evil ("monster") but hey she won and Kaede was just roadkill. Her apology rang pretty hollow.
That's the interpretation of what happened assuming the writers didn't have their collective heads up in a dark place --- I really suspect they didn't intend for Asa to become so hated by so many but thats where their ineptitude took it. I don't actually mind the idea of Asa winning but I really think they could tweak it enough so she doesn't end up being a Shakespearean villian in a tragedy. All it would take is Asa showing some serious concern for Kaede in the latter part of that arc (and rewriting Asa's arc so she doesn't sound like an idiot as well as a Kaede trampler). It might have been better if the Kaede arc (and Rin parting from her, helping her to be free) had been accomplished before starting anything with Asa.
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2006-11-13, 21:53 | Link #743 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2006-11-13, 22:18 | Link #744 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I really don't see any way they can maintain Asa as a "good guy" while making sure she ends up with Rin unless they play down the importance of Rin in Kaede's life. This of course would totally ruin the series and destroy the major appeal of the story and the arch within.
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2006-11-13, 23:04 | Link #745 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Goddamn, she went out of her way and gave a heartfelt apology for falling in love with her love interest after being attacked by her and even bought her some flowers! Most people would have just decided that the attack voided any apology that they might have owed and viewed themselves as the victim instead, expected Kaede to find them and give them an apology, and possibly even met that apology with a "Screw you, you psycho bitch! You attacked me!" or "Forgiven, now leave me alone." kind of attitude. Initiating the apology in the heartfelt manner that she did is very strong strength of character. Quote:
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2006-11-13, 23:25 | Link #746 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Honestlym Asa isn't the devil, but you can't try and play her off as some sort of humanitarian either. From what I've seen her of her actions, I'd even rank her as below the average person in terms of compassion and loyalty.
The very fact that Asa continues to flirt with Rin, while knowing she has feelings for him and knowing what Rin means to Kaede (her best friend) shows exactly her motives from the get go. She began to betray Kaede long before her and Rin hooked up. And whether you dismiss this as an unconscious decision or categorize it as conscious decision it was still wrong of her. She shouldn't have done it if she was truely a loyal friend to Kaede and an all round good person. Second her lack of forewarning to Kaede that yes she's developing feeling and pursuing a relationship with Rin supports the idea that she would all along be back stabbing and sneaking around Kaede's back. That she feels guilt of betraying Kaede, and/or that she doesn't even register Kaede's feelings denoting how little her friendship with Kaede really means. This also goes to show how callious and malicious she really is as she doesn't even have the decancy to care about another person's feelings beyond her own. Third, never really approached Kaede to apologize to her. Kaede was the one that sought her out. The apology that resulted was half hearted at best. I think anyone could see that at least. The fact that it took her that long to even talk to Kaede about it gives me the impression she never really was concerned with Kaede so much as keeping the peace within the group. All these things really put into doubt Asa's sincerity about her friendship with Kaede, the pretense of her relationship with Rin, her support of her 'best friend', her basic humanity and loyalties. This does not just extend to Kaede either. It extends to her relationship with everyone besides Rin within the series, it's just most evident with Kaede since Asa's relationship with Kaede is the most established and affirmed in the series (with the exception of Asa's mother and maybe Rin) |
2006-11-13, 23:26 | Link #747 | |||||||
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2006-11-13, 23:32 | Link #748 | ||||
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2006-11-13, 23:42 | Link #749 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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This bridge scene that you keep talking about was extremely weak, which is why everyone keeps ignoring it. It poorly done and does not make up for everything that went on. For the people who you keep trying to using it as a defense for it was forced and completely idiotic, patched together as a vain attempt to bandaid the enmormous gaping wound left from the previous episodes. I'm sorry but your "bridge scene" just doesn't begin to stop the bleeding.
The bridge scene was also either quite coincidental or a product of Kaede going out in the rain and looking for Asa. As for your "mutual love". It wasn't demonstrated to be "mutual love" until after the betrayal of Kaede. Love doesn't cause people to become insensitive. In fact it should do quite the oppposite. Asa should have still maintained her sensitivity to Kaede's feeling who she was best friends with (my own feeling here but I would believe that "best friends" would love eachother too. Where was the compassion and respect there?). Sorry just like to add I don't believe I'll be replying any further than this in case I over step my bounds |
2006-11-14, 00:32 | Link #750 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
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And no, it wasn't weak. Asa cried and apologized, and both sides showed that they were genuinely sorry. And yes, I do keep coming back to that, because that was the scene that showed that Asa cared! Its the scene that unravels the argument that Asa didn't care. And it was all that was needed to get the point across. It would have been overdone if they kept showing Asa sitting around depressed about what happened to Kaede, especially since Asa was the one in trouble during the last episodes. Quote:
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2006-11-14, 01:17 | Link #751 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Because at this point I sort of feel personally attacked by the last comment I think I have to say that I have been listening.
First off I'd like to apologize. There is a miscommunication here, I was not specific enough as to why I believe the bridge scene was not adequate so I will go into detail as to why I believe it wasn't. First off because it was an apology after the fact. The bridge scene only happened after Kaede's abandonment by just about everyone she cared about. Her supposed "Best Friend" and the man she loved. This is something that shouldn't have happened regardless of the feelings between Asa and Rin, first because this is not proper behavior of someone you could consider your "best friend". Second for someone that people should believe to be a supportive and loyal person it is out of character for Asa. Second, the meeting between them did not bring closure as it should have. The ending result was not Kaede gets of Rin, Asa wins Rin. It was one of let's just pretend the last few days never happened, we'll both do our seperate things. "You and I both love Rin, I'll ignore you loving him as long as I can have him and you'll ignore the fact that he's my boyfriend and keep thinking you have a chance." There's nothing even realistic nevermind romantic about this ending. Personally I would never stand for it. Third, given Kaede's continued instability it's unrealistic for her to accept this as easily as she did once she met Asa. Their conversation was much to civil to be realisitic of a girl who's entire world and reason for living has gotten torn away from her by someone close to her someone she trusted and never suspected. Regardless of the "time" that's gone by. It's not something a person can deal with emotional or psychologically that quickly. It often takes years and years to cope with this issues. It's just not believeable to me especially for someone that admittedly continues to have deep emotional attachments to Rin and was almost thrown into a murderous rage because of it. Fourth, most of the emotions in the bridge scene was expressed by Kaede, she was the one that did the majority of apologizing even though I view her as the victum in this circumstance. Asa's secondary apologizes only further my belief that she wasn't truely sorry and would at best be just apologizing because of the mood of the moment. Fifth Asa herself confesses her callious towards Kaede's feelings, admitting she should have been more sensitive (were she a real friend). This brings to the mind the question "why didn't she"? (at least in my mind, the only explanation for her utter negelect of her duties to a friend would be that she never really was one to begin with) Six, the bridge scene was too short to resolve everything that had happen to that point including the anamosities that had grown between the two. Seven, Asa cried for all of 30 seconds or less in the scene. Eight, Asa didn't even make an attempt to talk to Kaede her "best friend" until after her meeting with Rin and not until after she found out Kaede wouldn't see Sai or Nerine. Not the actions of a "best friend". They would got see what's wrong directly if they actually cared not like some gossiping 3rd party. Primula showed more interest in Kaede's well being than anyone in the series and supposedly they had only met recently in comparision to... oh let's say Asa who she's known for years... For Kaede to still be dealing with her emotional turmoil on the bridge and then meet for the cause of her turmoil and not freak out is just unreal. Lastly for all these problems with the scene to exist and still have it come out okay in the end is laughable to me. These are the reasons why I believe the bridge scene to be completely devoid of any substance. It holds no water as an argument in my mind. This is why I seemingly ignore it when you use it as a defence for Asa's behavior. Like I stated previously, a flimbsy band-aid for a big gaping wound. As for you "denial of love". Once again I'm not against Rin and Asa getting together. What I'm saying is the way in which they got together is not befitting of people that thoughtout the series have maintained that they care about Kaede. You cannot say they weren't ignorant of her pain and suffering all the while off in their own little world because it was demonstrated in the series over and over again. Through pictures of them having fun, and then kaede alone. Through Rin going to Asa's and Kaede waiting alone at home. Though Rin's broken promises to Kaede because he decided on a whim to go out with Asa. The slow progressive deterioration of Kaede's mental and emotional health happened over a series of episodes. Lot of times where either one could show they still cared for Kaede, lots of times where either one could have notified her of what was going on. Talked to her, made sure she was okay, worried about her. But none of that was shown. I don't remember ever even hearing about Asa asking about Kaede even after she broke down. (I'm not saying there wasn't I just don't believe there was please point me to the episode number if I'm wrong). Asa showed no real interest in Kaede until after she had secured Rin for herself and only after her talk with Rin made her feel quilty about Kaede's condition. |
2006-11-14, 01:31 | Link #752 | |||||||||||||||||
SharpenerOfTheBoxcutter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: where Grudge is Greatest, Rancour Endless and Malice Eternal(at school^^;;)
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I'm not making this up. And I doubt you can argue this was unintentional. Quote:
On the other hand, we are hinted, when Asa felt it necessary to admit to Kaede she was jealous of her ever since they met. Now, IF she actually did tell Kaede before as you seem to blindly believe, why the need to admit to Kaede at the end? What we know for fact was that Asa liked Rin all along ever since they met. Asa was playing the supportive senpai in episode 1 12m45s. Asa to Kaede/Rin: "Rin-chan is Kaede's knight and Kaede's knight alone, right?" At the same time, she would do things like shoving his head up to her panties. So much for your "not like she was intentionally going behind Kaede's back" Quote:
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While you argue that losing Rin etc. was the main issue, I can argue that her trusted senpai's betrayal was helping it. Making it much worse even. It may be that she wouldn't have gone that far if Asa was honest with her like the other girls. Quote:
Not a visit to Kaede, but at least something, like questioning what the heck just happened. We got nothing. Character. That's her character for you. Weak weak Character. Quote:
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That apology, her admitting that she went after Rin despite knowing Kaede's feelings was the least she could do. Not impressive. I would have preferred she told Kaede before going after Rin... edit: Moon Eclipse put this thing much more thoroughly in depth in previous post than this. I really agree with it. Quote:
My "friends" would most likely want explanation for why I attacked them. We are talking about friends here, good friends. Quote:
That was indeed just a casual "So what's up with Kaede? She hasn't been at school lately." There's was no worry or concern for Kaede's state. She even QUESTIONED whether she herself had anythin to do with it. Read the text carefully or watch it yourself again. "And what's the truth? Well it's odd that Kaede won't see Sia-chan and Nerine-chan." Again, this is Asa's brilliant Character for you. Quote:
It's still evil if you ask me. Way more evil than the alternative rei pointed out. Last edited by Arimfe; 2006-11-14 at 01:44. |
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2006-11-14, 01:34 | Link #753 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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Just be sure not to go overboard too much or the thread might get locked.
About the Kaede's Arc +bridge scene being OOC, don't ask me, there are several people (some of the highly respected as well) from neutral parties that agree on this notion, if you still think it is easily IC, I can't say anything more.
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2006-11-14, 02:38 | Link #754 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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The bridge scene came way too late (after all the damage was done) and basically boiled down to "I'm a monster but I win, sucks to be you, its sad" --- seriously, based on the characterization of Asa for the first 17 or so episodes, either they intended to write her as some Machivellian princess or --- there was a failure of communication between the writers of each of the arcs and poor integration by the senior writer. We end up with two very interesting but very different interpretations of the characters (especially Asa) spliced together in a terribly lame way.
I guess I wouldn't even mind that Asa was portrayed to win Rin via underhanded means (which would have been controversial and dramatic) but then they ruin even that with the last half of the last episode by having the rest of girls just smile and continue to say they love Rin and smile-happy-happy-harem-reset-hell. To borrow from anime philosophy: the writers were indecisive and therefore unfair to all the girls including Asa. The writers said they were going to give us a controversial series... but instead of shocking as they'd hoped... it comes closer to "drop the ball" stupid on their part.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2006-11-14 at 03:48. |
2006-11-14, 03:38 | Link #755 |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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The bridge scene was not OOC, but in no way did it redeem Asa or even close to that. As Vexx said - it came way too late. Basically Asa simply confesed about things that had allready taken place. She is in no way imaginable a best friend type of person. Even a good friend for that matter. She perfectly fits the bill of "With friends like that, who needs enemies".
In fact, enemies might be a good thing, since Kaede's suposed 'enemies'(Sia and Nerine) showed more concern about Kaede that her 'best friend'(who did not show any concern to begin with). A question - would Kaede suffer such a mental breakdown if Sia or Nerine would have won? I think not, because those two really cared for Kaede and were honest about their feelings towards Rin - Asa thing came crashing down on kaede from the blue. Besides Nerine and Sia did not mind sharing, while Asa gives Kaede permission to love Rin from afar - if that is not pure cruelty i don't know what is. Asa was after Rin just like all the other girls from the start, but she was the only one that acted as suportative friend when she really wasn't. She never showed any concern about Kaede after her breakdown. Never.. She even questions "is it my fault?". Um...hello? If that is how friends act i better get rid of all my friends quickly.... oh, wait - friends do not act that way. At least not ones that are worthy enough to be called 'friends'. At least Asa got one thing right in the end - calling herself a monster.
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2006-11-14, 05:12 | Link #756 |
Nya~ I'm a good actress
Join Date: May 2006
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My opinion of Asa will not change. I still think what she did is a treachery towards Kaede. Certain people doesn't seem to understand. Fanboyism / fangirlism? Nah, I rather call it different POV on Asa characteristic. Of course, some people wouldn't agree since they not on same wavelength as us when it comes to Asa.
Just to quote Vexx, "I've already said everything I'm going to say on the subject .... the threads are all there to see. No one has really come up with anything to add and only a few people have adjusted their opinions so I"m done with it." Oh, btw Bloodseeker, most of your responds (in attempt to defend Asa) are repetitive. Therefore, I'll guide you to the Closure on Kaede thread. You might find all the things that you need to know there. Any effort to defend Asa in the KKK Club will fail. Last edited by rei; 2006-11-14 at 05:25. |
2006-11-14, 08:23 | Link #757 |
My Lovely Bunny Chie
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Philippines
Age: 35
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come to think of it.....all of you just copy paste copy paste...same thing all over again... it's the same debate....nobody wins or loss....its just a waste of time... if you can't accept other people...it's their own way of thinking...own way of pespective.... in that way we all make ourselves winners....it's ur choice to be an asa fan... and i choose kaede... then the case closed... if somebody hate asa because of this and somebody kaede because of this....then accept it we can't change their opinion because it's their way of thinkin..
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2006-11-14, 09:33 | Link #758 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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2006-11-14, 09:37 | Link #760 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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We dont need a war to start here i am just voicing my opininon |
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