(L) Elfen Lied

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by dreamless

hmm... I don't remember hearing anything like "tsurai" in that line... I think it's something "-rashii omoi" at that part... but then maybe I remembered it wrong, I guess I need to get it again and rewatch that part.

well, I still think that's quite a cheesy scene anyway... and seems some non-manga-readers agree on that too...

Well, I think a bad translation can totally ruin the mood.
I was sitting on the edge of my seat watching that scene, wondering what the hell
kouta would say to her.. I thought it was well done.

[bohemian]

Originally Posted by Forbin

She tried to infect the girl, she was already infected, so that killed her instead.
Lucy was like why doesn't it work.

Yes, I remembered that girl in an early episode, so Lucy indeed killed her? I always thought that Lucy just infected the girl and then the girl fainted after being infected. So, if what you are saying is true, who infected that girl in the first place? I never got that when I watched that episode.

[Guido]

I have read all of your posts regarding the last episode, and from my viewpoint I stand out that both of you have valid criteria with how things turned out in the end.

What fascinated me about Elfen Lied were the subtle and/or abrupt changes from mood and scenario. When Lucy emerges, the atmosphere becomes dark and creepy. It is imminent that someone or lots of people are going to get murdered in such hideous way; inevitable.

When Nyuu appears, on the other hand, the anguish and tension vanishes. The scenery becomes calm and peaceful again. We were displayed how she interacts within the Kouta household as another member of the family; lovely without being sugary.

We were shown to factions (groups) with utterly opposite attitudes and interests that helped to shape and compel the scenario's mood and emotional stability.
In one hand, we have the Kakuzawa team that tries its best efforts to hunt down the threat that Lucy (as also the Diclonius) poses to the world and clear the danger before it's too late, unawared that their main Boss (Kakuzawa) is a bastard, puppet master that's just using them all to feed his purpose plus sacrificing them according to the need of the situation.
Kurama and the team try their best efforts to destroy Lucy, but they fall flat, short on them as they are helplessly overpowered.
On the other hand, we have the Kouta household. As Yuka explained in the last episode, Kouta affected by the brutal trauma of his childhood in some way developed the affectionate desire to help people who had been through terrible experiences in their life so that they won't suffer any loss from what he had already suffered in the past.
We were displayed a non-traditional family group formed by quite few family relatives (Kouta and Yuka) plus sheltered strangers that came in contact with Kouta (Nyuu, Mayu, and Nana). How they relate and work as a real family, and how we felt fraternity and care in the atmosphere.

Two opposite environments that took their turns to shine depending upon the appearance of Nyuu to Lucy to Nyuu to Lucy on stage.
Lucy-Nyuu was the key person who drove those changes not only in the atmosphere but also in the environment.

As for the ending.

Spoiler:

I disagree if is Nyuu who stands behind the door during the last scenes. My interpretation of that scene is that Kouta was imagining the silohuette of Nyuu-Lucy behind the doorway.

That image has two meanings: No hope and hope.
No hope, because everytime that Kouta gets to greet a visitor he imagines that visitor would turn out to be Nyuu standing behind the doorway, but the moment he opens the door turns out to be another, different person.

Hope, because Kouta has neither forget about her nor given hope on her (as someone stated earlier). Kouta clearly believes that someday when he gets to greet a visitor and opens that door that visitor will finally turn out to be Nyuu, therefore, implying that his hope received reward, and Nyuu did managed to return home with them, after all.

I clearly believe that Kouta is just imagining Lucy-Nyuu's figure standing behind the door. That image was crafty and clever for the animators to put on because that leads the viewers to believe that while the story ended with reassurance, it left also the door open as to the main characters' whereabouts.

The objective me assumes with positive certainty that Lucy got killed. She was heavily surrounded by a SWAT team in all directions. Those guys were standing a
fair, safe distance from her vector's range. I believe they employed heavily, armored guns that shot powerful, armor piercing bullets that her vectors cannot deflect. She released only two vectors, and she was caught within a rain of bullets.
The anime implies that a Diclonius vectors are cut shorted if their horns break, well that's what I assume, because why Lucy did not released all her four vectors but just two?

On the other hand, the subjective me believes positively that Lucy somehow managed to escape and she's still alive. When she got caught by the bullets, we see only her remaining horn broken and falling with a bit of blood oozing from it. However, we never got to see Lucy's dead body. Had the animators show the shadow of Lucy getting shot and falling, that would have left no doubts on me that she utterly died. However, we only see her last horn broken and falling, but not her body.

Merging my objective and subjective thoughts, I conclude that Lucy's whereabouts are unknown with a likeability that she toughly survived at a terrible cost.

After reading MakubeX2, Mentar, and dreamless comments regarding the end of the episode plus the stuff dealt whether unfinished or not, I believe that all of you are right.

For Mentar and MakubeX2 comments:
Yes, I did perceived Elfen Lied dealt about the issues of Lucy's and Kouta's past and their relation. I did perceived how Nyuu fitted into Kouta's new family, and compassionated for Lucy's suffering through life.

I think the main issue discussed in Elfen Lied is hope.
Lucy never did she gained and received anything from anybody from the day she was born, until she met with Kouta. Unfortunately, Lucy at that time was unable to believe in herself strongly enough so that she could be able to trust another person that wasn't Kouta. Lucy never had hope from the beginning until Kouta came to her. She tried to grasp hold of that hope, but she give in after realizing that Kouta lied to her and watching him with Yuka.
Therefore, the Vector Lucy personality took advantage of her despair and drove her to believe that she was the only who suffered and not needed in the world. Hearing the voice and losing the grasp of a fainted hope, Lucy to avoid getting hurt took the easy way out: hate the world to the boiling point in wiping out all the people whether they harmed her or not.
And that's how she became totally psycho and deranged, taking for granted that all people are just the same miserable and pathetic fellas who are going to hate and kill her at the first chance, unless she kills the people first without giving a damn about them.

Episode 13 displayed an attempt for Lucy to try again for grasping hope. She couldn't stay in the household because she knew that even if she get a happy memory staying there forever, she will just lie to herself and putting Kouta in danger.

Spoiler:

Therefore, Lucy told Nana to stay with Kouta and the rest of the household to achieve what she couldn't or give in to do so. Lucy never made reference about Yuka and Mayu, but she did not talked about them disrespectfully.

Also take note that when Lucy was surrounded by all the SWAT's in the vicinity, she gave her cold look, but at the same time she was holding her tears.
It could be interpreted that Lucy regretted not fully telling Kouta about her confessing her true feelings to him.

Or that she realized at the last minute that she wished to stay in the home with Kouta and the others.
Clearly an attempt for Lucy in retaking the first steps to try to reach for hope.

I would not mind to watch an anime or read a manga that's even doomsday, catastrophic, or apocalyptic as long as the plot hints or do I feel that somehow 'hope' manages to prevail at the end.
That's why I decided not to look after the manga because it seems that Okamoto-san has neither given nor hinted any possibility or room for hope for the time being, and definitely I do not like it.

Spoiler:

IMO, the person who was rewarded most and in whom hope prevailed was nonetheless than Nana.

I mean, assuming since her birth, she spent all her lifetime in that dastardly lab being treated and tested like a guinea pig. It amazes me that she kept her composure and did not gave in fully to the vector instinct. Likely because Kurama took affectionate care for her.

Then getting her limbs ripped apart by Lucy.
That the bastard Kakuzawa wanted Kurama to dispose of her.
Kurama manages her to escape safely and by chance gets to meet Mayu.
She's introduced into the Kouta household and learns about Nyuu-Lucy duality.
She's accepted as another family member and realizes that is possible for her to lead a happy life.
Gets stripteased, tortured, and thrown to the sea by #35.
Rescued by Kurama again.
Beaten to a pulp by #35-Mariko, yet she survived. A swollen purple eye, a swollen cheek, and possibly a tooth broken.

On top of all, she witnesses her father Kurama getting blown up leaving her shocked. Yet, she does not goes postal and psycho, and even to that bastard Lab-guy who is aiming at her with a gun. It still amazes that Nana after watching the death of her father-Kurama she still did not gave in to her killer instincts.

She then tries her best effort to endure the hardship of having lost her father and reminds herself to return home, after Lucy told her to go where everyone expects her.
She repeatedly tells herself, "I have to go home", over and over as she's falling prey to despair and panic, thinking the worst that maybe she has lost her home and place and no one else would care for her. Nana was likely at the edge of going deep darkness, and suddenly she finds herself at Kouta's manor.

I can interpret this event like if Nana's whole world suddenly enlightened. That at the end of the dark tunnel, she managed to cross through and found the way out toward the light. Something literally that Lucy was not able to achieve. The moment she found her way at Kouta's, she finally realized what her father meant to be truth, "Live in a far away place and lead a happy life". She attempted her hardest to believe and made the journey back home, and her hope was rewarded.

Then in the epilogue, we see Nana having almost finished totally adapting in her new life as another family member within the Kouta household. At lunch time, while she's eating "soumen", she recalls sad memories about Lucy & Mariko as also experiencing the good things she has come in contact with. Then, she cries saying, "There are so many wonderful things..."
From these thoughts that Nana comments, I can understand that Nana is fully aware now that there are as many bad things and people as they are also good ones. That life is neither fucked up nor nice, but rather how we make it, live it, and decide to feel it by ourselves. That all people (herself included) also undergo through grave moments of despair and solitude during their lives, but they can also encounter with a someone who might actually care for them, if decide to believe. Finally, that people are not meant to be perfect and is something natural to make mistakes, to fall for our emotions and desires, as also improve for becoming better.

I think that after enduring and overcoming such hateful and shocking moments of her life, Nana achieved to become not only stable but emotionally stronger as well. That now she's able to fully believe in herself, to confide and trust her new family, and she accepts that the world is worth living along with the rest of people whether nice and / or worse.

At the end, Nana gained more than what she lost. Of course, she won't forget her Father-Kurama. I bet that just as Kouta keeps both the seashell and musicbox as a memento of Kanae and Nyuu, Nana is keeping her father's suit-jacket as a memento of him.

So from my viewpoint 'hope' prevailed through Nana. A human-diclonius that achieved to live like any other person and led a boring, happy, ordinary family life.

Had the producers decided to make Nana a martyr for what she wanted to believe and achieve, I would have become imperially pissed off about it.

However, it will come as no surprise to me if Okamoto-san decides to make Nana a martyr in a further volume of the manga.

[Entropy]

Kurama and the team try their best efforts to destroy Lucy, but they fall flat, short on them as they are helplessly overpowered.

Funny thing about that...notice how almost every single one of the "Special Forces" team members were using MP5.Now the MP5 at best uses .40 cal/10mm pistol ammo and that chambering for MP5s are already out of production,so we assume that the things are chambered for the Wimpy 9x19mm pistol caliber round which has trouble dropping people in one hit or even a few hits and can't penetrate a window on occasions.

And yet we see scientists carrying FAMAs with AP ammunition(well ok once),we see Bantou carrying a .50 cal handgun(boo!!!hiss!!!) using special tungsten rounds(common material used in AT ammo on modern non-US tanks)doing a fair bit on Nana.

They probably didn't try hard enough .

What kind of difference would there have been in the series if they grew brains and armed guards with things like G3s and FNFALS firing .308 AP rounds or later on like in that bridge scene used heavy weapons,perhaps even Bushmaster 25mm cannons or better yet Oerlikon KDE 35mms mounted on Japan's own Type 89 IFVs?

If Vectors have a hard time deflecting .50 cal pistols using Tungsten rounds imagine the carnage from a Bushmaster firing DU

Basically,for all the extra cost that came from hiring 4958035 useless security guards with pea shooters they could probably have had more success with a few guys armed with heavy weapons plus a knowledge of how to use them well.Bureaucracy at it's best

But than again,this is anime we're talking about

[dreamless]

well, none of them uses flash grenade, tear gas, things the vectors can't stop, and they only used sniper once, and no more sniper later on. I guess the Chief just want to send in more people to die

[Proto]

Moreover... why dont they arm every soldier with the armored weapons that they perfectly know the vectors can't stop... but no... they give the soldiers 15 mm guns that even i can stop with my teeth

And seeing this type of monsters I'm surprised they didn't think of tanks

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Funny thing about that...notice how almost every single one of the "Special Forces" team members were using MP5.Now the MP5 at best uses .40 cal/10mm pistol ammo and that chambering for MP5s are already out of production,so we assume that the things are chambered for the Wimpy 9x19mm pistol caliber round which has trouble dropping people in one hit or even a few hits and can't penetrate a window on occasions.

And yet we see scientists carrying FAMAs with AP ammunition(well ok once),we see Bantou carrying a .50 cal handgun(boo!!!hiss!!!) using special tungsten rounds(common material used in AT ammo on modern non-US tanks)doing a fair bit on Nana.

They probably didn't try hard enough .

What kind of difference would there have been in the series if they grew brains and armed guards with things like G3s and FNFALS firing .308 AP rounds or later on like in that bridge scene used heavy weapons,perhaps even Bushmaster 25mm cannons or better yet Oerlikon KDE 35mms mounted on Japan's own Type 89 IFVs?

If Vectors have a hard time deflecting .50 cal pistols using Tungsten rounds imagine the carnage from a Bushmaster firing DU

Basically,for all the extra cost that came from hiring 4958035 useless security guards with pea shooters they could probably have had more success with a few guys armed with heavy weapons plus a knowledge of how to use them well.Bureaucracy at it's best

But than again,this is anime we're talking about

DU is not as dense as tungsten, so it wouldnt be any better. But density is probably not relevant, neither is round mass. What really matters in total energy, since the target is a "vector" force field, velocity will penetrate better than bullet mass. For that reason, a .357 magnum would probably be a significant enough threat to them, perhaps more than a .50 cal with AP rounds (which do absolutely nothing to increase total energy)

That aside, I totally agree with you: these vector girls dont really seem all that dangerous.

[Grona]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

That aside, I totally agree with you: these vector girls dont really seem all that dangerous.

ummm, really now

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by dreamless

well, none of them uses flash grenade, tear gas, things the vectors can't stop, and they only used sniper once, and no more sniper later on. I guess the Chief just want to send in more people to die

Grenades would be caught and thrown back at the attackers. Bad idea.

[sarcasteak]

Spoiler for OVA SPOILERS:

Kouta: Nyu? Please play gently today...

Nyu: Nyu! Nyu, nyu, nyu, nyu!

Kouta: I enjoy your vectors and all...but please, my butt is a bit sore today from last night.

Nyu: NYU!!!! NYUUUUUUUUUU! KOU-TA SUKI DAIYO...AISHITERU! NYUUUUUUUU!

Kouta: N-Nyu?! Wait...not so many...don't lift me up....GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by sarcasteak

Spoiler for OVA SPOILERS:

Kouta: Nyu? Please play gently today...

Nyu: Nyu! Nyu, nyu, nyu, nyu!

Kouta: I enjoy your vectors and all...but please, my butt is a bit sore today from last night.

Nyu: NYU!!!! NYUUUUUUUUUU! KOU-TA SUKI DAIYO...AISHITERU! NYUUUUUUUU!

Kouta: N-Nyu?! Wait...not so many...don't lift me up....GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

Elfen Lied 14 : Vectorutions?

Originally Posted by dreamless

hmm... I don't remember hearing anything like "tsurai" in that line... I think it's something "-rashii omoi" at that part... but then maybe I remembered it wrong, I guess I need to get it again and rewatch that part.

well, I still think that's quite a cheesy scene anyway... and seems some non-manga-readers agree on that too...

コウータ：君だって・・・君だってさ、沢山悲しい思いしてじゃないのか。

It is cheesy, someone whom you barely know murdered your family in front of you, shocking you into traumatic amnesia. You spend a few years in ignorance of whatever things had happened or had gone on. Now you suddenly remember and you immediatedly forgive in a flash. What impactful long terms of decisions and pondering had been done to achieve a grevious decision to overcome something cutting your heart badly? Nope, just a brief, "Oh you poor thing. I think I loved you when we were young so I love you still and let's forget that you slice my sister and father into pieces, ok?"

[NoSanninWa]

He may have barely known her then, but now he cares a great deal for Nyu.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

コウータ:君だって・・・君だってさ、沢山悲しい思いしてじゃないのか。

hmm... so that's it... I just got it again and listened to it again... yup, I guess he said takusankanashiiomoi... however it sounds like takusangarashiiomoi... I guess some translation got it to something like takusanairashiiomoi because of that...

for that part, I think it's quite cheesy because

Spoiler:

although he told her that he couldn't forgive her, he didn't act any single bit like he couldn't forgive her. I mean, do you kiss/hug/embrace someone you can't forgive? It's like he just said he couldn't forgive her as an afterthought, some empty words he then totally forgot about in the next moment. The flashbacks shown after that didn't contain even one single scene from the death of his father and sister, only those together listening to music in the rain and the zoo scenes. Hmm... he kissed the one who killed his sister and father right in front of him, I expected that at least he should get reminded of that bloody scene, yet he didn't feel any bit uncomfortable at all?

Another thought after watching the ending again

Spoiler:

Kouta told Lucy that if she's to hurt anyone again, he'd regret it forever. Hmm.... do you think Lucy can continue to kill people after hearing this? Did she try to kill those soldiers in the end, or some other plan without hurting anyone again?

[sarcasteak]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Elfen Lied 14 : Vectorutions?

Tentacalinus?

Anyways, I thought the ending was beautiful...I enjoyed this series a lot and loved the characters; gotta believe in love...love can overcome anything! I would forgive my Midori even if she killed someone I know...so long as I know she did it out of love for me...

[MakubeX2]

SAT do exist in real life though.

http://hanran.tripod.com/terro/c-sat.html

They are the counter-terrorist of the police force of Japan.

And their mainstray of weapon according to that page :-

拳銃……ニューナンブM60短銃、P226、P228、G19（各10丁前後）
ＳＭＧ……MP5A4、A5、SD4、SD6（各10丁前後）

Handgin :- M60, P226, P228, G19
SMG :- MP5A4, A5, SD4, SD6

So your comments about SAT having more then those seem abit.....off.

[evil|plushie]

Hmm, all I can is...

This is Kouta -_- Mr. I can blank everything out-guy. He probably BLANKED out the emotional trauma and such that he felt from seeing his sister and father killed. Therefore, I nominate Kouta for the person who's actually the MOST psychologically screwed up in the head in the entire series.

Who's with me?

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Hmm, all I can is...

This is Kouta -_- Mr. I can blank everything out-guy. He probably BLANKED out the emotional trauma and such that he felt from seeing his sister and father killed. Therefore, I nominate Kouta for the person who's actually the MOST psychologically screwed up in the head in the entire series.

Who's with me?

Only the animated version. Only the animated version.

But you have to wonder what is the atcual message behind this series. This series has everything. Gore, cute girls, drama, action and sci-fi. But how is it connected to the old german song "Elfenlied" ?

Granted that the anime has a music box that connect Lucy and Kouta, so that explains the "song" part, but the "Elf" part remains a mystery.

The title in regards to the manga is even harder to explain.The only thing that had some context to the title is Nozomi teaching Nyuu to sing Elfenlied.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Only the animated version. Only the animated version.

But you have to wonder what is the atcual message behind this series. This series has everything. Gore, cute girls, drama, action and sci-fi. But how is it connected to the old german song "Elfenlied" ?

Granted that the anime has a music box that connect Lucy and Kouta, so that explains the "song" part, but the "Elf" part remains a mystery.

The title in regards to the manga is even harder to explain.The only thing that had some context to the title is Nozomi teaching Nyuu to sing Elfenlied.

well, maybe they thought elves grow cat-ears, so Diclonus are elves... or something, so Elves Song

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by dreamless

well, maybe they thought elves grow cat-ears, so Diclonus are elves... or something, so Elves Song

Yah....granted that Lucy/Nyuu used to remotely resemble an Elf in Vol.1 with the horns protruding out of the side of her head before Okamoto redesign her to have Nekomimis to canter the taste of Otakus....

Seriously though....

The only thing I've noticed in the series is that every characters lose something in their life.

Kouta-His family.
Lucy-Her innocence.
Yuka-Kouta's fondness of her.
Mayu-Her trust in her family and men....possibly her virginity.
Nana-Her natural born family.....and limbs.
Kurama-His wife and along with that, his love for his daughter.
Mariko-Her father's love.

Somehow everyone got banded together and almost everyone got back what they lost.

[Elbowlick]

Well, the song Elfen Lied is about an elf that goes to see a wedding in a human village, and then is struck on the head. Really, it's about a creature that's not human, and can never fit into a human world because humans will always reject it (and use violence against it).

So it's a nice title for the anime. It fits rather well.