[Manga] Claymore Chapter 78 Discussion

[Flar]

So you are arguing that:
1) In less time it took for the ghosts to go from Riful to Rabona, Audrey went back to the org, the org gathered a team including their only eye, their trump cards and a few single digits, then Miata went to Rabona, slowed down by the many ABs on the way.
2) Miata and Clarice are bait for the ghosts
3) Lune and team are watching the fight without being cloaked, but somehow without being noticed by Galatea nor by the ghosts (who are not "blinded" by any AB fight, and who showed they have range and penetration when they detected 12 Claymores plus Riful's real strength in 69)
4) Lune can see through the ghosts cloaking (or you have to explain how they thought they would know when to intervene or why they didn't act yet)
5) The org likes the few members it managed to get, especially the ones who can sense the cloaked Claymores, dead, just so that if the cloaked team escapes, they cannot be tracked again, and so they have less manpower to use for the hunt.
6) the org is planning on unleashing Alicia in a city for everyone to see, but not before the renegade eliminated their opposition and are free to disappear again.

Sorry but I think it's hogwash.

Not to mention, I don't see a team of Claymores who risk their lives to help the org being seen as such a threat that the org would be willing to field and risk more than half its strength to subdue, when other Abyssals are nearby ready to pounce on a weakened enemy. At worst, they would arrange situations to gauge this group's power level, like they did with Riful back then, but that excludes any "eye" or hasty intervention and relies heavily on Miata's report.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Speculating i can't be bothered arguing...

Depends on what theyr'e planning really. At the worst they could unleash Alicia to supress this insurrection, and blame all the casualties on a normal AB. All the ordinary civilians would just see claymores' fighting a monster and losing. No bad PR whatsoever, and they get rid of the church. (i don't really think they're that machiavellian though)

1) That is what the timeline looks like, the G7 will have to avoid claymore hunting teams and patrols etc (if they don't want the org to really know where they are). Audrey doesn't have to go to the org, just a mib.
2) yep they aren't a proficient hunting unit
3) yes back in 69 they weren't fighting when tabatha scanned, and clare doesn't seem to be doing area scans either
4) lune just has to watch the AB agatha dissappear at the edge of her range, at best galatea and miata only had a 50% chance against her. (measuring the strength would make it obvious a cloaked group just took an awakened #2 down)
5) that is why they would do this now, it ain't about losing miata, it's about using miata to find them
6) as the start of my post.

hogwash or not, i'm just speculating, it's all theory.
Personally i think the org will make an offer/blackmail before setting about wiping them out. The org risked their numbers #2,3,4,5 against the defected #1, which left them with #6 down at a time when they had no other protection from the three AO's, and squandered 24 warriors as a roadblock, they aren't above losing half their strength on a calculated risk.

[Flar]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

1) That is what the timeline looks like, the G7 will have to avoid claymore hunting teams and patrols etc (if they don't want the org to really know where they are). Audrey doesn't have to go to the org, just a mib.

Which doesn't change anything, the mib still has to go there.

3) yes back in 69 they weren't fighting when tabatha scanned, and clare doesn't seem to be doing area scans either

And the ghosts aren't fighting either before 78, and Galatea wasn't always fighting either during the whole time Clarice was in Rabona, talking to sid, galk and so. Are you saying that pursuer claymores stayed out of range the whole time, somehow knowing when they could approach or that they have a wider range than Galatea and Tabatha? Following that, why would they be in range now? It's not like they could sense shit happening, since they were out of range so as to not be detected by Galatea/ghosts until now.

4) lune just has to watch the AB agatha dissappear at the edge of her range, at best galatea and miata only had a 50% chance against her. (measuring the strength would make it obvious a cloaked group just took an awakened #2 down)

Ah, but they didn't know there was going to be Agatha, my question was: what were they planning to do? They didn't just sail into the sunset thinking "oh well, there will be an AB dying to signal when we can go, Clarice and Miata just cannot find her alone or with the ghosts", even disregarding that they have to assume that Lune will outrange Galatea.
Question: As far as the org knows, Galatea cannot see through pills, what do you think happens if Miata just stumbles on cloaked vengeful Ghosts and Galatea alone? What plan do they have for it? Sit around hoping a very powerful but not overwhelmly so AB appears and dies? (so as to differenciate from the normal ABs Miata kiled on the way)

5) that is why they would do this now, it ain't about losing miata, it's about using miata to find them

I thought you agreed it's a suicide mission?

hogwash or not, i'm just speculating, it's all theory.

Oh yes, but that doesn't mean I cannot say it doesn't make sense or point where I think it goes against the evidence, right? We're all here to speculate

[tenken627]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

@derelict, hate to be the one breaking the news to you, but robert jordan died late last year, so the WoT, may not be finished.

@tenken, well i was thinking in that instance that, the org keeps stuff in an icehouse, and starts experimenting, once they realise that clare is odd (she did manage to kill #4).

WTF, he died last year? Shows how out of the loop I am. At least the last installment will be finished. I'm actually feeling kinda sad now.


Clare supposedly killing a #4 (the MiBs don't know if Clare actually killed Ophelia) was long before Teresa, Hilda, or Rosemary died. If the MiBs found Hilda's or Rosemary's bodies, they would have seen that those two awakened already.

Depending on what actually is transfused in a Claymore operation, it would be hard to use Teresa's body (if frozen) again. If the transfusion is with glands and/or organs, then that would have been used on Clare and that's it. It's not like Teresa had extra livers/intestines/etc. in her body.

Originally Posted by Flar

@Tenken: For the asoiaf HBO serie, it's still in preparatory phase, meaning they have to shoot the pilot and the channel has to accept to make the serie based on that pilot and their current strategy. it's far far from being done.

Also, the Eddings write mind candy crap.

Yeah, I just read about that yesterday. I also understand that the writers' strike further delayed production.

I don't know if I'm excited or horrified. In my eyes, A Song of Ice and Fire is a better story than WoT and Tolkein's LoTR. I would be disappointed if they screwed the tv show up. Still, it's HBO, and they are known for making and picking good series, so I think it will turn out decent.

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

Sorry to break into the debate but couldn't the org. have just followed miata at a distance? It wouldn't be that hard to gather a hunter group at one of the differn't districts whithen a certen peremeter. Far enough away without them being easily read while the hunter group suppresses there power the group could be mistaken for an ordenery group if there far enough away. It would be easy for them to organise a team around that area once they notice that miata is heading for Robana. Then once they notice that something is going down in robana they can mobalize. for all we know they might arrive soon.

[hell88]

Originally Posted by Torri_fay_torren@hot

Sorry to break into the debate but couldn't the org. have just followed miata at a distance? It wouldn't be that hard to gather a hunter group at one of the differn't districts whithen a certen peremeter. Far enough away without them being easily read while the hunter group suppresses there power the group could be mistaken for an ordenery group if there far enough away. It would be easy for them to organise a team around that area once they notice that miata is heading for Robana. Then once they notice that something is going down in robana they can mobalize. for all we know they might arrive soon.

I was thinking that when Clare and Galatea have there reunion there would be an ambush on them and the rest of the ghosts, and Clarice would be like what do I do? Then Clarice and Miata might end up saving Galatea and the ghosts for saving her, and then they might end up traveling with them. Oh wait did I say Clarice and Miata would save them, I meant Clarice would just order Miata to save them.

[stringer13]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

Hey flar, i'm not a calculator, i'm speculating...



Clues/information?, ilena sat isolated and supressed for years and she had nowhere near the level of skill galatea had, and yet until she used quicksword no one knew she was there.? Why would galatea be that careless, she even contemplated sending a formal request, just to get rid of agatha. This is what i mean by signals. The org knew/suspected her whereabouts.

Irene was actually stronger then Galatea.

[Sleepy Speculator]

sigh, i don't like having to explain every nuance of a theory, but since it's suppsoedly ridiculous i'll point out something... galatea could sense clarice and miata, despite them being yoki supressed.

That could just be mad skillz or
That could be a result of pills that don't work properly/as stated which would imply something else, but i'll leave that argument for elsewhere. (e.g. a sure lot of yoma found them)

When i say mib, i assume we don't go into their ability to be all over the place, and like a functional army, they don't have to goto HQ to sort everything out. The awakened hunt that audrey and rachel were on likely had a handler, they report to him, he passes it on and has the #3 and #5 still with him right there and then, even *if* there is a given lack of time he could scrape the other 10 claymores within tabatha's range in short space of time, one would assume.

It's true that the ghosts probably scanned before they got to rabona, but then the fight had been going on for quite some time, and they probably rushed to aid whoever in rabona was getting killed. Don't know at what range they did that or from what direction, if scanning is a center of a circle, then they could be anywhere outside of the circle that rabona happened to be in. This is of course just a chance as much as anything. Galatea was scanning and had clarice and miata pegged, right upto them talking to her, but not the G7, which of course goes back to the start of this post.

The org keeps information on AB's now and goes after them as soon as they can, which is why agatha was hiding. Galatea making blatant mistakes and missing people in rabona could easily indicate an AB of power, otherwise she'd just kill it herself.

A kamikaze is a suicide mission that destroyed many allied ships in the pacific in WW2 don't mean you can't get a dual use out of it. Using miata as such doesn't go against that theory.

We don't know anything about lune so it's hard to speculate on that, but she can just follow miata/clarice, and use them as a distraction. Given that sensing generally requires closed eyes and concentration, it maybe a bit hard to do at range when someone's jabbing a sword at your face. We don't know if this is affected by geography (area advantage, hills/mountains boosting range, though we have seen them being used) Or what the mib's are capable of. Evidence indicates the mib's can't be sensed, which throws a whole spanner in the works of suppresion and scanning areas anyway.

Miata and clarice had nothing to fear from the G7 without orders, clarice does all the thinking and she's been spared once already, she also won't send miata against them for no reason, she's on a mission after all.

@Flar
You can point out inconsistencies as much as you like, it is speculation about a fantasy setting after all, and this thread is a sounding board, i welcome constructive criticism, but if you're going to use the academic/objectivist priority of evidence, then you should probably actually provide quotes such as i did in my previous post, in order to actually back up what you view as an argument.

#1741 Flar - "so you are arguing..."

And did i run you over in a previous life cos i think these are a bit uncalled for-
#1736 Flar - "fan delirium"
#1741 Flar - "i think it's hogwash"

[Flar]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

Galatea was scanning and had clarice and miata pegged, right upto them talking to her, but not the G7, which of course goes back to the start of this post.

Except, as we have been arguing a lot in this thread and the previous one, Galatea apparently cannot sense the ghosts, even when she tries and they are right next to her, like in page 8 of chapter 78.

Miata and clarice had nothing to fear from the G7 without orders

So, the org thinks that when Miata tries to kill a friend of theirs before their eyes, Miata and Clarice will be as safe as if Galatea was an AB? Why not, the org does not seem to think straight anyway.

You can point out inconsistencies as much as you like, it is speculation about a fantasy setting after all, and this thread is a sounding board, i welcome constructive criticism, but if you're going to use the academic/objectivist priority of evidence, then you should probably actually provide quotes such as i did in my previous post, in order to actually back up what you view as an argument.

No, actually, you build a theory, the onus is on you to defend it. I don't have to build counter theories or provide more evidence than what I use in my questions.

Beside, most of the argument is about logic and common sense, and about the inexistent evidence, we both have all the real elements.

#1741 Flar - "so you are arguing...

Didn't mean for that to sound aggressive (actually does it really sound that aggressive?), it was genuine questions about the ramifications of your theory.

And did i run you over in a previous life cos i think these are a bit uncalled for-
#1736 Flar - "fan delirium"

Wasn't directed at you but at the whole forum me included, we did discuss that a lot and came up with many non-facts, that we shouldn't mistake for canon.

#1741 Flar - "i think it's hogwash"

Well, that's what I think, maybe it wasn't the right word, but I am indeed attacking your theory, not you. You are apparently an articulate and imaginative guy but that won't make me say that everything you say is right.

Do I need to be angry at you to disagree with you?

[nines]

do any of u know when 79 is coming out?

[hell88]

Originally Posted by nines

do any of u know when 79 is coming out?

Sometime next week most likley.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I apologise flar, i thought you was being funny with me as it were.
I did say the pills being dodgy is one of the possibilities, to explain that little conundrum, the G7 would spank miata and clarice silly, without resort to killing her if they were that close to seeing her go at galatea uninterupted, they are just that strong as a group.

Of course i'm defending my theory, and you disagree... but will you allow me to add the childish and obvious retort regarding onus... and your theory regarding this issue is...?

[Vulcannis]

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but I don't think there's any need to debate whether the org could have reached Rabona in time, whether they were following Miata, etc., because IMO they were already there. Rabona is as far as we know the only place in the Claymore world where Claymore's cannot venture... well, not counting the Abyssal's lairs. For that reason alone it makes sense for the org to have someone there at all times to keep an eye out for, well anything really. I think this is also how they kept tabs on Clare when she was in Rabona the first time.

[stringer13]

It's possible that it could come out gthis week.

[Enara]

I pray to god it does.

[hell88]

In Asia it usually comes out at the end of the month, the english scans are usually out at the begining of the next month. So I'm guessing the english scans will hit north america sometime around the 3rd.

[Simley]

argh...waiting for the final few days before it comes out is pure torture. I figure this chapter will be mostly talking, hopefully we get some major new revelations and maybe Miria even reveals the org's big bad secret. There has been absolutely no word about that since it was mentioned in the slasher's arc.

[hell88]

This next chapter will most likley be a lot of talk, and mabye an ambush from the org but thats douphtful. I bet we will probably find out who the new orgs eye is now, mabye it will show her at the end of the chapter watching from a distance.

[Rowan]

I think Alicia was the big secret, it just had a bad reveal. The only real evidence I have comes from the anime:

1. Miria never mentions the Organization's greatest secret like she does in the manga.

2. Every single reference to Alicia is removed from the anime.

I concede it's not much, but it's the only reason I can think that they'd pull her out of the show. She's the big secret.

R.

[Simley]

Originally Posted by Rowan

I think Alicia was the big secret, it just had a bad reveal. The only real evidence I have comes from the anime:

1. Miria never mentions the Organization's greatest secret like she does in the manga.

2. Every single reference to Alicia is removed from the anime.

I concede it's not much, but it's the only reason I can think that they'd pull her out of the show. She's the big secret.

R.

meh, I don't like comparing it to the anime, why do people consider anime as cannon? Only the manga counts. I can't believe alicia would be the big secret...that would be so anticlimactic