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Old 2004-04-28, 16:29   Link #441
Mcdonalds
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wtf,
Quote:
Besides, no developed country sells weapons for such countries as Manangga - this is another Planetes bullshit. The irony is that it's quite opposite - only another bigger and larger "Manangga" (like N. Korea/China/USSR) will be willing to sell em weapons
All countries sells weapons. China/N korea/USA/UK etc etc. It was the US who supplied Iraq and Al Qaeda with weapons at first i understand (or maybe i'm making up) and its UK who supplies india or pakistan with weapons right now (I think). I'm sure if china/n.korea etc knew that the people they were selling weapons too would attack them, then they would stop selling weapons to them like what the u.s. and uk have done

Also
Quote:
Plus they can always buy what they want from black market. I mean, "stop selling them weapons" wont solve anything, cause it's impossible to
Just because they can acquire weapons from other places doesn't mean that it gives the right for developed countries to condone the action and sell them. An example would be pharmaceuticals selling illegal drugs. Just because they can be brought from drug dealers, the pharmaceutical companies don't say, look they can buy it anyway, thats why we're selling it. By selling the weapons, they are giving off the wrong impression.
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Old 2004-04-28, 16:34   Link #442
Soulcatcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaat
Actually Germany is a bad example, don't forget the marshall plan. Besides Germany was rebuild quickly mostly because of threats of communism.
I think you dont pay attention to a fact that Germany was _capable_ to be rebuilt and become democratic nation.

Now, do you really believe that, say, if USA make the same effort for Iraq - do you believe that Iraq will be able to resurrect like Germany? Let me guess - hell no.

Again - nation's mentality is very important factor.

Quote:
You're missing the most important part. Monopoly, remember the episode with the person from Claire's place of birth. (you know the country in South America)
The little nations don't stand a chance because the developed countries control space resources. They guy said it himself.
Sure, sure, space monopoly.. :) Oh, can you please tell me how much space monopoly, say, Poland has? What, none?! And they still can be democratic and fairly developed country? Strange ;)

Quote:
So how can a country like "Manangga", become like a developed country if the developed countries controls all the space resources needed for a country like "Manangga" to become developed. (does this make any sense?)

Exactly they can't.
Are you serious? Do you seriously believe that Manangga simply has to have space resources in order to be deveoped/civilized/democratic (choose whatever you want) nation?

Can you please list me countries that have monoply on space right now? Russia and USA, that's it. So, listening to you, all other small countries dont have a chance to prosper, right? :)

Let me say this again - space resources mean NOTHING if the nation doesnt know what freedom/private property/democracy/culture (and so on) is. Space resources wont help Manangga at all :)

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Now terrorism is bad, no doubt about that. But having a monopoly on resources isn't what I call a good thing ;)
Life isnt fair, you are right ;)
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Old 2004-04-28, 16:39   Link #443
Soulcatcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcdonalds
erm, what exactly makes you believe that 120k lives of scientists/tourists etc are more important than 5 mil of mananggas people. Ok they aren't educated, but that doesn't make them less important. Also, just because the 5 mil of manangga people are not educated, does not mean they're useless and that they are less of a human. That's called dehumanisation and thats what the nazis did. Also, i think you're viewing manangga people in the view that they're all terrorists, rather than there are extremists e.g. hakim that are terrorists.
Huh? I clearly said that i dont want to compare people's life, didnt i?

I never said that mananggas people are "useless and that they are less of a human".

I never said that all mananggas people are terrorists.

I just said that from my point of view, 120000 scientists and simply educated people are more important to humankind than blah-blah-blah. I said it because i was forced to, but it is true, isnt it?

Any more misunderstandings?
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Old 2004-04-28, 16:43   Link #444
Mcdonalds
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Have you even watched the anime? the anime doesn't give indication of whether the other small countries are doing well, or whether its just russia and usa that are capable of space. are you saying that because thats what it is in real life. In any case,l i doubt that its only russia and usa because theres a union with like 8 leaders, the people who met up which suggests that more than those 2 countries involved. Also the country that claire came from has people becoming astonaughts and making astronaught suits and they are totally underdeveloped.
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Old 2004-04-28, 16:46   Link #445
Mcdonalds
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Originally Posted by Soulcatcher
And since you are willing to compare the value of lifes (i dont want to do it but...) - you know what, that 120000 people in lunar city are infinitely more valuable to human race than 5 (or 50) millions of Manangga's people.
does that not indicate that you're saying manangga people are less worthy?
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Old 2004-04-28, 16:57   Link #446
tsurumaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher
Well, as i said, i dont want to compare human lifes.

But just to make it clear - my (insert here any person i love) life, for example, is so more precious to me than any other life, you know.

Simiraly, 120000 lifes of scientists or simply educated people who help to explore the space are more valuable for humankind than 5 mil of Manangga's people (and i hope you can approx guess who they are).
So educated people are worth more? Thats an extremely dangerous view to have (even if we are talking about a fictitous nation).
Every human being has potential, who is to say that the next Einstein could not come out of a nation such as Mannaga, if only they had the education they deserved?

The one thing I am glad about is that this series is making people think about these kind of things. Mostly we simply put them to the back of our minds and simply ignore them so that we can continue our lives without thinking about the enormity of the issues.

Just to share my viewpoint I dont condone terrorism and I do believe in the development of space by mankind, and obviously this will be driven by those with money (in our current capitalistic society). However ensuring our species can eventually leave the cradle of this Earth should be a goal everyone strives for, alongside ensuring that no-one should ever starve or that debilitating diseases should be eradicated completely. For if we remain here on this Earth until we have used all our resources, or some war or epidemic or natural disaster results in our destruction then hundreds and thousands of years of culture and technology etc will have been for nothing and we will have wasted the potential that we have as a species and it won't matter if we have world peace when our Sun turns into a red giant and swallows the Earth (in a few hundred million years) unless we have the ability to move to another viable world.

Last edited by tsurumaru; 2004-04-30 at 07:35.
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Old 2004-04-28, 17:01   Link #447
Soulcatcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcdonalds
wtf, All countries sells weapons. China/N korea/USA/UK etc etc. It was the US who supplied Iraq and Al Qaeda with weapons at first i understand (or maybe i'm making up) and its UK who supplies india or pakistan with weapons right now (I think). I'm sure if china/n.korea etc knew that the people they were selling weapons too would attack them, then they would stop selling weapons to them like what the u.s. and uk have done
US was supplying Afganistan with weapons cause USSR invaded it.

You cant compare India or Pakistan with Manangga. Manangga is, afaiu, typical african country with no goverment and constant civil war. I highly doubt that US or any other western country oficially sells weapons to such country.

What i want to say... Well, i dunno. My common sense tells me that USA wont sell any weapons to countries such as Somali.. I dunno :)

May be i'm wrong. I wanted to say that most probably USSR sold/gave 100 times more weaponry to various mananggas than US and Western Europe combined :)

Quote:
Also Just because they can acquire weapons from other places doesn't mean that it gives the right for developed countries to condone the action and sell them. An example would be pharmaceuticals selling illegal drugs. Just because they can be brought from drug dealers, the pharmaceutical companies don't say, look they can buy it anyway, thats why we're selling it. By selling the weapons, they are giving off the wrong impression.
see above.
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:22   Link #448
vasiliki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher
Sure, sure, space monopoly.. Oh, can you please tell me how much space monopoly, say, Poland has? What, none?! And they still can be democratic and fairly developed country? Strange
You must be jokking. Poland was a mess until very recently, and it's still nowhere near "fairly developed" - except if you're comparing it to your own country, that's why you put it that way. In any case, this thread is not to debate capitalism or the value of uneducated vs educated people. Therefore, could you please stop hijiking it and create a new thread?
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:46   Link #449
Yebyosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
I don't know if that's really an overly image or a realistic one. Let's forget about space for a second. Let's say that a new oil resource has been found somewhere on Earth. Do you really expect that no nation will attempt to exploit it for their own good? People ARE selfish, that's the whole idea behind capitalism. I can't imagine that this will be different in space either. Sure, some 'scientists' might be thrilled about space exploration, but most people only care about one thing, power.

And I never really see the terrorist's action in Planetes as 'justified' really. Killing people is never the right choice IMO, but hey, what choices do they have?

Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I can't really see your point of about 'polarisation of themes'. Maybe I really need to read the manga.
Huh... did I complain that space exploration is supposed to be a public ideal?

No. Everyone is selflish in their goals and ambitions. What I complained is how anime Planetes stacked all the extremely-selfish personalities on the side of space exploration. Why don't they show Dorfl espousing space exploration but with him explaining why its necessary (colonisation -> alleviation of overcrowding)?

Why don't they show the normal workers in their space environment being totally happy and basking in a new surrounding unlimited in horizon? Instead they show every minor character who gone off to venture in space dying or ruined and only on returning to Earth would they eke out a good happy life.
Spoiler:

This is polarisation. They ignored the other possibilities that are not 'dreams' and constantly blasted us with this 'moralistic' ideal.

Here's another polarisation (but of a stereotype). Hachimaki is transformed into some bum who is so down-and-out on his luck. Everything he does is always suddenly confronted with some insurmountable odds. Then they keep sticking in his friend who 'has it all' next to him to try and contrast it out starkly. All in all, it just made me wanna puke during that 1st phase elimination test. Manga Hachi didn't get so much shit but his trials and tribulations still come across well and made me more interested in him.

P.S. I do find SoulCatcher extreme in the way he expresses his views (i.e. attitude). But he backs it up with good arguments and some refreshing (to me) frank talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher
May be i'm wrong. I wanted to say that most probably USSR sold/gave 100 times more weaponry to various mananggas than US and Western Europe combined
Actually if I'm not wrong, official international reports state that the USA is the largest legal global distributor of weaponry (that means sales, gifts, political packages). There is no reliable reports of who is the largest total (illegal & legal) global weapon distributor though.
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Old 2004-04-28, 22:20   Link #450
rainz
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No. Everyone is selflish in their goals and ambitions. What I complained is how anime Planetes stacked all the extremely-selfish personalities on the side of space exploration. Why don't they show Dorfl espousing space exploration but with him explaining why its necessary (colonisation -> alleviation of overcrowding)?

Why don't they show the normal workers in their space environment being totally happy and basking in a new surrounding unlimited in horizon? Instead they show every minor character who gone off to venture in space dying or ruined and only on returning to Earth would they eke out a good happy life.
Now I see what you mean earlier. You're probably right. Adding those elements would probably boost the depth this show has to another level. Still, Planetes anime is better in this category than most anime really.

So what you're saying is that Planetes anime tries to polarise the viewers into taking side with the terrorists. Funny though, I never did, and reading the posts here (especially from Soulcatcher, the paragon of capitalism), I don't think many people does either. I guess most people just feel comfortable siding with the main characters.
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Old 2004-04-28, 22:43   Link #451
Yebyosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
Now I see what you mean earlier. You're probably right. Adding those elements would probably boost the depth this show has to another level. Still, Planetes anime is better in this category than most anime really.

So what you're saying is that Planetes anime tries to polarise the viewers into taking side with the terrorists. Funny though, I never did, and reading the posts here (especially from Soulcatcher, the paragon of capitalism), I don't think many people does either. I guess most people just feel comfortable siding with the main characters.
Well I don't feel they are trying to make us side with the terrorist. I believe their aim was to espouse the thought of becoming 'better politically correct beings' who would give up everything and do volunteer work in Somalia, Mogundishu or somewhere. Whether they themselves believe and practice that precept is another thing.

The unfortunate side-effect (perhaps unintentional) however is that they come off as terrorist sympathisers. I don't think they support terrorism though, just the attitude that "Oh it is so bad. But we must understand them... blah blah blah" ( until their family gets their heads and limbs blown off to who knows where, then we hear "^&@!%&*&* die die die!" )
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Old 2004-04-28, 23:06   Link #452
rainz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yebyosh
Well I don't feel they are trying to make us side with the terrorist. I believe their aim was to espouse the thought of becoming 'better politically correct beings' who would give up everything and do volunteer work in Somalia, Mogundishu or somewhere. Whether they themselves believe and practice that precept is another thing.

The unfortunate side-effect (perhaps unintentional) however is that they come off as terrorist sympathisers. I don't think they support terrorism though, just the attitude that "Oh it is so bad. But we must understand them... blah blah blah" ( until their family gets their heads and limbs blown off to who knows where, then we hear "^&@!%&*&* die die die!" )
Haha, I guess I also belong in that camp. After all, it's the most comfortable position to be in, not siding with anybody, trying to understand each sides and forming well-informed decisions. Naive, perhaps, but I still feel that it's the most civilized thing to do. Chances are, you will *always* see these themes as long as you develop the bad guys as sympathetic characters. It can't be that different in the manga, right?

How is this terrorist arc done differently in the manga anyway? Are the terrorists portrayed as being more evil? Are the space exploration people portrayed in a more positive light?
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:47   Link #453
Rheinhard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yebyosh
The unfortunate side-effect (perhaps unintentional) however is that they come off as terrorist sympathisers. I don't think they support terrorism though, just the attitude that "Oh it is so bad. But we must understand them... blah blah blah" ( until their family gets their heads and limbs blown off to who knows where, then we hear "^&@!%&*&* die die die!" )
The problem for the poor countries here seems that they are constantly exploited by the powerful nations, and prevented from developing their own abilities and technologies which would allow them to participate in space development (look at what happened to the guys in Eltanica trying to develop a low cost effective space suit). They're no doubt also aware that even if they manage to recover and get to space under their power, by the time they do all the resources will have been "legally" claimed by the Federation (sorry you can't build a base on the moon because everything between Mare Tranquilitatis and Mare Ibrium now belongs to Federation X... sorry you can't mine the asteroid field because it now belongs to Union Y from the Treaty of 2385...)

There is a lot of realistic historical precedent for this. A lot of "third world" countries today which we look at as being poor and backward weren't always that way. There were thriving advanced cultures in Central and South America, and in the middle east and asia, which got totally screwed over by Western interfence in the age of colonization because their weapons tech was a bit behind or because they weren't resistant to the myriad of diseases brought in by the filthy Europeans. A strong attitude of "How did those dirty A-rabs get on top of our oil?" and "What are those damn Injuns doing with the gold in them hills?" led to years of conquest, arbitrary redrawing of borders to suit colonial powers, and exploitation. When British ships sat off the coast of China shelling the coastal fortifications until the country would agree to let in the opium trade, is it little surprise that the Chinese hated them? And then after years of being screwed with these nations and peoples are looked down as poor lazy stupid jerks who just can't seem to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".

Of course terrorism and the murder of innocents is wrong, but it's unrealistic to expect wealthy powerful nations to get away with it for generations and then be able to say "Oh well, we've got ours, lets all be at peace now" without allowing for some means to raise up that which would have existed but for their own meddling.
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Old 2004-04-29, 01:07   Link #454
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Well, I figure that that don't need to justify the pro space faction. Most people are already going to be against terrorism to start with, so I don't think the anime creators need to play up sympathy for the status quo.

Space exploration would largely be irrelevant to problems in 3rd world countries anyway. Unless leading countries took the ~1% for foreign aid and shifted it to space exploration (making it like 1.5%). But most of the players in space seem to have corporate backing, so government was less of an issue.

I liked that guy's spacesuit though. Seems like Technora could also replace their Fishbones if they went with that design.
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Old 2004-04-29, 01:37   Link #455
Yebyosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
Haha, I guess I also belong in that camp. After all, it's the most comfortable position to be in, not siding with anybody, trying to understand each sides and forming well-informed decisions. Naive, perhaps, but I still feel that it's the most civilized thing to do. Chances are, you will *always* see these themes as long as you develop the bad guys as sympathetic characters. It can't be that different in the manga, right?

How is this terrorist arc done differently in the manga anyway? Are the terrorists portrayed as being more evil? Are the space exploration people portrayed in a more positive light?
The terrorist arc is in the manga (a lot of the major story points in the anime is adapted from the manga). However it is really really minor compared with the main emphasis on Hachimaki's character development.

But if you want to know what kind of balanced view the manga brought compared to the extremes of the anime, read on!
Spoiler for manga's balance:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheinhard
Of course terrorism and the murder of innocents is wrong, but it's unrealistic to expect wealthy powerful nations to get away with it for generations and then be able to say "Oh well, we've got ours, lets all be at peace now" without allowing for some means to raise up that which would have existed but for their own meddling.
Ahhh... I would rather have the classic "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" than the "Hey, your great great great grandfather did this to my great great great great great grandmother! Now pay up!". Grievances should be saved for revenge, not for blackmail.
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Old 2004-04-29, 02:24   Link #456
Blaat
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You got to give credit to an anime like PlanetES to have us debating so much about such an minor issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher
I think you dont pay attention to a fact that Germany was _capable_ to be rebuilt and become democratic nation.

Now, do you really believe that, say, if USA make the same effort for Iraq - do you believe that Iraq will be able to resurrect like Germany? Let me guess - hell no.

Again - nation's mentality is very important factor.
You're correct, nation's mentality is an important factor but Germany still got aid after the WWII, including US marshall plan etc. They didn't do everything on their own.

Quote:
Sure, sure, space monopoly.. Oh, can you please tell me how much space monopoly, say, Poland has? What, none?! And they still can be democratic and fairly developed country? Strange
I'm not sure they never talked about Poland in the PlanetES anime, I wasn't talking about real life you know. Just the world in PlanetES.

Quote:
Are you serious? Do you seriously believe that Manangga simply has to have space resources in order to be deveoped/civilized/democratic (choose whatever you want) nation?
Yes.

Quote:
Can you please list me countries that have monoply on space right now? Russia and USA, that's it. So, listening to you, all other small countries dont have a chance to prosper, right?
The Federation has the monopoly in space, so apparently the small countries don't have a chance.

Quote:
Let me say this again - space resources mean NOTHING if the nation doesnt know what freedom/private property/democracy/culture (and so on) is. Space resources wont help Manangga at all
Yes it does help Manangga, it helps the country to develop. Notice how in today's world that the most free countries are the wealthiest ones. I'm guessing that's the same in PlanetES.

Oh well I notice some miscommunication, you thought I was talking today's world situation. While infact I was talking about the world in PlanetES. I should have made that point more clear.

My apologies for that.

Quote:
Life isnt fair, you are right
Life will never be fair, but humans can make it fairer.
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Old 2004-04-29, 09:51   Link #457
Soulcatcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasiliki
You must be jokking. Poland was a mess until very recently, and it's still nowhere near "fairly developed" - except if you're comparing it to your own country, that's why you put it that way.
First of all, i compared Poland to Manangga. That's why i called it fairly developed.

Quote:
In any case, this thread is not to debate capitalism or the value of uneducated vs educated people. Therefore, could you please stop hijiking it and create a new thread?
Maybe you should watch at least one ep of Planetes... Just a suggestion.
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Old 2004-04-29, 09:59   Link #458
Soulcatcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcdonalds
does that not indicate that you're saying manangga people are less worthy?
Less important for humankind. If someone said to me "Look, i'm going to kill either 5 mil of Manangga's people or destroy whole Lunar City - what do you choose? And you cant do anything to stop this." I would choose 5 mil of Manangga's people. I already explained why several times.

I dunno - is it so hard to understand? And dont give me crap about "all human lifes are equal" - so, i repeat, your dad's (or sister's or whatever) life has the same importance to you than the life of some complete stranger?

I think answer is quite clear - no. The same goes to the situation described above. And i really hope that this will be my last post on this topic... Just stop being hypocritical, ok?
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Old 2004-04-29, 10:16   Link #459
Soulcatcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsurumaru
So educated people are worth more? Thats an extremely dangerous view to have (even if we are talking about a fictitous nation).
Every human being has potential, who is to say that the next Einstein could not come out of a nation such as Mannaga, if only they had the education they deserved?
(sigh) Educated people/scientists are worth more to humankind than uneducated + constantly killing each other people...

And btw, each time you go to supermarket and buy some food - do you think about children in Africa who die from hunger? No? Most likely you dont give a <beep> about them.

All i ask is to stop this hypocrisy. Like i'm all high and mighty and all people's lifes are equally worth and so on and so on. Bleh, sure. Until you have to choose.
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Old 2004-04-29, 10:52   Link #460
rainz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulcatcher
(sigh) Educated people/scientists are worth more to humankind than uneducated + constantly killing each other people...

And btw, each time you go to supermarket and buy some food - do you think about children in Africa who die from hunger? No? Most likely you dont give a <beep> about them.

All i ask is to stop this hypocrisy. Like i'm all high and mighty and all people's lifes are equally worth and so on and so on. Bleh, sure. Until you have to choose.
Soulcatcher, as much as I appreciate you being frank about your ideals, I think you're generalizing way too much. Not everybody in Manaaga is "uneducated + constantly killing each other". In the same light, I'm sure not everybody in Lunar city (or the developed nations) are smart either. Let's say that 1 out of a 100 Manaagans are educated and civilized. Out of 5 millions, that's 50,000 people. That's nearly half the population of Lunar city. Now, is it fair to ridding them of their potentials?

The thing is, you have to stop branding people based on where they came from. Although nation mentality does exist, it's not fair to think that everyone in that country thinks that way too. I don't think that this is too different from racism.

Truthfully though, you're probably right about the value of life. My life is worth much more than yours to me. But don't you ever stop to think how great it'll be if more people think that all lifes are equal? Naive, perhaps, but you know, that'll be the day when humanity ever become "civilized".

EDIT: and Yebyosh, the manga sounds amazing. More complex in both storyline and themes. Now if I can ever get my hand on a copy...
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