Total Eclipse - General Anime Discussion

[DoomRavager]

It wasn't their culture he was told to understand, just their mindset. Since the machines he gets the most out of maneuver in totally different ways from the machines he's now being made to fly, but he's trying to maneuver the same way he used to and complaining it's too sensitive to changes in posture, instead of changing his basic mindset around how the thing is supposed to be handled. So he does have to think about mindset of those who designed it and adapt accordingly instead of complaining that the thrusters are weak.

I think Vincent will have a sit down with him next episode and carefully explain how he's supposed to be handling the Shiranui II Phase 1 and why, then he ends up fighting a Takemi.

[Sylphic]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Didn't all but one of them die? Not sure how "effective" that makes it.

Losing while being in an awful tactical situation, heavily outnumbered, with trainee pilots who have less than 8 minutes of real combat experience between all of them clearly means the weapon system is ineffective amirite?

I'm not quite following your logic here... These aren't gundams. No TSF is going to blow entire chunks out of a beta army in one volley.

Originally Posted by YF19EX

I will give that we have not see US Doctrine in battle against the BETA so their is no real comparison at this point. We have seen Japanese Doctrine and it does not fare so well. There are always new ways and new methods to be found when it comes to fighting. An edge should ways be expolited. If a 3rd or 4th gen TSF has those advantages, you would be stupid to rely on older outdate machinery unless your fighting with the Soviet of Quantity vs Quality. But in this case the BETA have the latter on anything else so Humanity has to focus should be the Quality of its pilots, training and Machinery.

US combat doctrine or no, Yuuya has a miniscule amount of real combat experience. Arguably, he's the most green out of all the pilots in the team despite being "top gun".

The Japanese doctrine is the only one that is combat tested, and I would argue is reasonably effective, considering Japan hasn't yet fallen despite overwhelming odds.

Yui isn't saying that he should get outdated machinery and deal with it. The unit he has is a training unit, so it makes sense that it is inadequate. The idea was for him to get used to handling and fighting in a Japanese TSF so he can be the test pilot for the next jointly developed TSF which is forthcoming. Instead he has an awful attitude where all he can think is Japanese = bad, Japanese TSF = irredeemable piece of shit rather than try and figure out how to use the Japanese TSF. The fact he calls it a piece of shit when it is clearly working on the front line shows his complete ignorance and inexperience. This is the reason why Yui is peeved and shits on him and his games.

I can't believe the number of people that don't understand and just say blah blah this show is anti-American. :

Originally Posted by encia

Those bunch of cute trainees are also dead i.e. same result as Yuuya. The hardware needs to change. During WW2, the Japanese didn't quickly change thier Mitsubishi Zero's weaknesses, while USA adapted from F4F WildCat to F6F HellCat (in addition to Vought F4U Corsair and Lockheed P-38 Lightning).

I'm pretty sure the Japanese side realizes this. That's why they asked to Americans to help them out with a next gen TSF. I mean developing a new TSF to replace the current hardware is the whole reason they're in Alaska right?

[Enternal]

Originally Posted by Sylphic

Losing while being in an awful tactical situation, heavily outnumbered, with trainee pilots who have less than 8 minutes of real combat experience between all of them clearly means the weapon system is ineffective amirite?

I'm not quite following your logic here... These aren't gundams. No TSF is going to blow entire chunks out of a beta army in one volley.




US combat doctrine or no, Yuuya has a miniscule amount of real combat experience. Arguably, he's the most green out of all the pilots in the team despite being "top gun".

The Japanese doctrine is the only one that is combat tested, and I would argue is reasonably effective, considering Japan hasn't yet fallen despite overwhelming odds.

Yui isn't saying that he should get outdated machinery and deal with it. The unit he has is a training unit, so it makes sense that it is inadequate. The idea was for him to get used to handling and fighting in a Japanese TSF so he can be the test pilot for the next jointly developed TSF which is forthcoming. Instead he has an awful attitude where all he can think is Japanese = bad, Japanese TSF = irredeemable piece of shit rather than try and figure out how to use the Japanese TSF. The fact he calls it a piece of shit when it is clearly working on the front line shows his complete ignorance and inexperience. This is the reason why Yui is peeved and shits on him and his games.

I can't believe the number of people that don't understand and just say blah blah this show is anti-American. :

Yes pretty much. To add, remember Yui told Yuuya to use the Fubuki and get used to it WHILE the Shiranui is still being prepared. What that pretty much means is "get used to the Fubuki and how the Japanese TSF and then when the Shiranui is finished being prepared, you will be testing it". Instead Yuuya starts acting rudely just because "did she even look at my records?". She's not saying that he sucks which is why he will be using a training TSF. No, she wants him to get used to a Japanese TSF while they prepare for him the Shiranui. What does he do in return? Act rude.

[Wild Goose]

tl;dr, what we're having is a failure to communicate between Yui and Yuuya.

Both of them are being jerkasses to each other, and both of them do make some good points which get lost in the mutual belligerence. Can we now move on from beating this dead horse?

I am now completely of the opinion that this is all just a buildup to angrysex. Or they'll get shot down in the wilderness somewhere and have to rely on each other to survive or something.

Unless Yuuya manages to snag Cryska first.

[Enternal]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

tl;dr, what we're having is a failure to communicate between Yui and Yuuya.

Both of them are being jerkasses to each other, and both of them do make some good points which get lost in the mutual belligerence. Can we now move on from beating this dead horse?

I am now completely of the opinion that this is all just a buildup to angrysex. Or they'll get shot down in the wilderness somewhere and have to rely on each other to survive or something.

Unless Yuuya manages to snag Cryska first.

What?!?! You CAN'T have Cryska without Inia. It's blasphemy otherwise.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

I am now completely of the opinion that this is all just a buildup to angrysex.

You hit the spot....

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by Sylphic

The Japanese doctrine is the only one that is combat tested, and I would argue is reasonably effective, considering Japan hasn't yet fallen despite overwhelming odds.

Well, it's not like Americans haven't also had experience being deployed overseas to support other nations fighting BETA, and supposedly been reasonably effective at it.

Japan did kinda just about fall, though. US and COSEAN-led UN expedition helped retake the mainland afterwards, in a pretty ...big expression of US anti-BETA tactics. (Can I say that here? It's not specifically stated in the anime but then again it's kind of overwhelmingly inconsequential background that happened between episodes 2 and 3 that's probably never going to be mentioned)

Originally Posted by Sylphic

I can't believe the number of people that don't understand and just say blah blah this show is anti-American. :

I guess some people are just prejudiced against anything that even smells like it might be nationalist or something.

[encia]

Originally Posted by Enternal

No. The trainees died because there were more BETAs than they expected. Plus the trainees were clueless (OMG THE BETAs EAT PEOPLE!! NOM NOM NOM). It's not entirely because the machine did not do well but the pilot themselves weren't in a very good situation. Stop saying "hey your comrades all die and therefore Yuuya's assessment is correct". Hell, the machine that came and save Yui. What machine was that from? Did you see how it just made lunch meat out of those BETAs? That's pretty awesome!

Spoiler for EP4:

As commented by Yuuya, the missing alert system is a problem i.e. one of the trainee mech as sliced in half without an alert in EP2.

Sorry, the trainee mechs fails in UI situational awareness feed back.

In PvP scenarios with similar ballistic weapons, I rather have a fast machine+nice UI+sustained hover than a slow machine+stall prone/weak engines+bad UI.

Points to consider
1. With BETA Tank unit, the main goal is to target it's rear-end and shoot.
2. BETA Tank also has weapon arc/reach limit i.e. two arm swing limit.
3. BETA Laser units has it's weapon arc/reach limits i.e. generally stay under 100m.

Find a weapon that delivers
- The quickest for point 1 with long operational time.
- Ability to stay above point 2.
- Ability to stay above point 2 and stay under 3.
- With minimum training.

Originally Posted by Enternal

It's like you're a sniper that is surrounded by the enemy... and you die while blaming that the sniper rifer sucks and that it should have been fully automatic so you can blast those suckers. You were just in a bad situation. It's not the fault of the weapon.

"Fully automatic" points to better hardware for the job i.e. build a better can opener/mouse trap.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by encia

Spoiler for EP4:

As commented by Yuuya, the missing alert system is a problem i.e. one of the trainee mech as sliced in half without an alert in EP2.

Sorry, the trainee mechs fails in UI situational awareness feed back.

In PvP scenarios with similar ballistic weapons, I rather have a fast machine+nice UI+sustained hover than a slow machine+stall prone/weak engines+bad UI.

Points to consider
1. With BETA Tank unit, the main goal is to target it's rear-end and shoot.
2. BETA Tank also has weapon arc/reach limit i.e. two arm swing limit.
3. BETA Laser units has it's weapon arc/reach limits i.e. generally stay under 100m.

Find a weapon that delivers
- The quickest for point 1 with long operational time.
- Ability to stay above point 2.
- Ability to stay above point 2 and stay under 3.
- With minimum amount training.

This is not a sniper scenario.

I rather use Zoids's the Blade Liger or Geno-Saurer which can handle slow Zergling rush type attacks. Again, better hardware.

Ep04 is aired, is it still a spoiler?

Anyway, the alert is not the irradiation "get the hell out" laser warnings he is referring to. I think its more the bitching betty alert for stalling and low ground warning.

And the machine is fast enough used properly. He's just not used to using the suit and moving slowly at first. Look at him dodging the Grappler's arm. Do you think its possible to do that with a slow machine?

And point to consider. What if BETA's can shoot below 100m? They only don't shoot their own (unlike humans), nothing stops them from getting out of the way... And Ants are known to swarm over themselves to get to inaccessible places. What stops BETA from doing the same? Or using each other as launch pads and jumping, which was shown in ep2, and no where else... (I choked when I saw jumping BETA... that's cheating!!!)

[encia]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Ep04 is aired, is it still a spoiler?

It's under the spoiler quotes and it's just oversize crab mechanics.

Originally Posted by grevierr

Anyway, the alert is not the irradiation "get the hell out" laser warnings he is referring to. I think its more the bitching betty alert for stalling and low ground warning.

I wasn't referring to BETA laser warnings i.e. it was a KE attack.

Originally Posted by grevierr

And the machine is fast enough used properly. He's just not used to using the suit and moving slowly at first. Look at him dodging the Grappler's arm. Do you think its possible to do that with a slow machine?

The issue was with the thrusters. Yuuya's tactics seems to be thrusters based movements (in X,Y,Z) i.e. aircraft VTOL fighter based mindset instead of infantry based mindset.

Originally Posted by grevierr

And point to consider. What if BETA's can shoot below 100m? They only don't shoot their own (unlike humans), nothing stops them from getting out of the way... And Ants are known to swarm over themselves to get to inaccessible places. What stops BETA from doing the same? Or using each other as launch pads and jumping, which was shown in ep2, and no where else... (I choked when I saw jumping BETA... that's cheating!!!)

Ground terrain is not flat. Without thrusters, a jumping Beta wouldn't able to change it's direction once it in the air.

Originally Posted by Enternal

Yes pretty much. To add, remember Yui told Yuuya to use the Fubuki and get used to it WHILE the Shiranui is still being prepared. What that pretty much means is "get used to the Fubuki and how the Japanese TSF and then when the Shiranui is finished being prepared, you will be testing it". Instead Yuuya starts acting rudely just because "did she even look at my records?". She's not saying that he sucks which is why he will be using a training TSF. No, she wants him to get used to a Japanese TSF while they prepare for him the Shiranui. What does he do in return? Act rude.

The initial meeting between Yui and Yuuya sets the relationship tone between them, but any hardware critic from Yuuya may result in Yui defending the Japanese pride.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by encia

The initial meeting between Yui and Yuuya sets the relationship tone between them, but any hardware critic from Yuuya may result in Yui defending the Japanese pride.

And any mention of anything Japan gets criticism by Yuuya.

[Destined_Fate]

Man oh man.. So many here are saying Yui is a complete bitch while acting like Yuuya is completely justified. The hostilities were dead set the moment Yuuya looked at Yui and noticed she was Japanese. Calling Yui racist and leaving Yuuya alone despite he himself being racist is just messed up. Not to mention that Yui sees Yuuya as "Japanese" thus she's disappointed in him because he rejects his heritage and the Japanese people and that he isn't performing as what's expected of a fellow kinsman which is disgraceful.

Yui being hard on Yuuya is also to save his life since he's going to have to pilot the Japanese TSF for quite a while, blaming the machine instead of learning how to actually pilot it will get him and his team killed. Yui even tries to give him advice on how to better pilot it and he completely disregards her and treats her rudely.

Not to mention that the Japanese TSF's have proven to work just fine and have been used on the front lines to safeguard Japan against infinite BETA waves. Yuuya calling it a piece of shit just because he doesn't want to figure out how to pilot it is disgusting and insults the lives given by the Japanese that have piloted even crappier TSF's at the cost of their own lives so that Yuuya doesn't have to learn on the battlefield like they did and can afford to make mistakes without dying from them.

I guess civies that haven't been in the military wouldn't understand. What Yui did is nothing that she could have done to correct Yuuya's rudeness, especially since she was just trying to help him.

[NoemiChan]

I find Yuuya confused between seeing himself as inferior as a half breed and being pressured by Yui because of being a half breed as well. Actually, I understand Yuuya but I hope Yui will have him get through with it. Yui seemed to step on Yuuya but actually wanting him to show her what he really capable with...

It seems Yui sees herself in Yuuya... Yuuya is likely a born to be leader.. but in Yui's eyes... its he's attitude that will bring he's team down...

[Destined_Fate]

Just like his attitude that ruined the training simulation, Yuuya even acknowledges that he screwed up bad but when Yui comes in he makes it a point to say it isn't "he" that screwed up but the tested and proven Japanese TSF because it's Japanese thus inferior.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Just like his attitude that ruined the training simulation, Yuuya even acknowledges that he screwed up bad but when Yui comes in he makes it a point to say it isn't "he" that screwed up but the tested and proven Japanese TSF because it's Japanese thus inferior.

Hehehe, hope Yuuya gets through with this and make a stunt for Yui to die for... can't wait for the next episode.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Enternal

No. The trainees died because there were more BETAs than they expected. Plus the trainees were clueless (OMG THE BETAs EAT PEOPLE!! NOM NOM NOM). It's not entirely because the machine did not do well but the pilot themselves weren't in a very good situation. Stop saying "hey your comrades all die and therefore Yuuya's assessment is correct". Hell, the machine that came and save Yui. What machine was that from? Did you see how it just made lunch meat out of those BETAs? That's pretty awesome!

That's a Takemikazuchi...completely different level. But otherwise, yeah....The 94 isn't exactly crappy...

an american is coming across childish in an argument against a japanese in a show directed by a japanese targeting japanese audience

talk about other things you have missed

if you want a less biased presentation, read the manga. so very surprisingly, the manga ended early possibly because it didn't summon enough audience interest.

And likewise, there's plenty of Japanese in this entire franchise as well as other nations with stereotype nationalist values to the point of parody. Such things sell, whether because it is truly funny to laugh at while supporting a side or real nationalist attitudes.

What are you going to do about it? No country's media is free from it.

You should be laughing already that it isn't Guilty Crown levels of bad....

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

tl;dr, what we're having is a failure to communicate between Yui and Yuuya.

Just not between Yui and Yuuya, as I can observe.

[encia]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Not to mention that the Japanese TSF's have proven to work just fine and have been used on the front lines to safeguard Japan against infinite BETA waves. Yuuya calling it a piece of shit just because he doesn't want to figure out how to pilot it is disgusting and insults the lives given by the Japanese that have piloted even crappier TSF's at the cost of their own lives so that Yuuya doesn't have to learn on the battlefield like they did and can afford to make mistakes without dying from them.

Specifically, the Japanese TSF trainers was junk. A nation should give the best hardware it can buy for it's soldiers. The results with Yuuya and trainee girls are about the same.

Spoiler for Ep4:

Yuuya : "The main engine lacks power. It's only effective at certain speeds which the engine has difficulty maintaining and more than anything, it puts too much emphasis on maneuverability, making it unbalanced".


Yuuya's assessment sounds like RL WWII's Mitsubishi A6M Zero i.e. Zero's emphasizing on low speed maneuverability vs Allied aircraft's high speed maneuvers.

IF Japanese TSFs doesn't any need improvements, then they shouldn't even participate in the joint TSF improvement program. USA can continue its own F22 TSF development plan.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I guess civies that haven't been in the military wouldn't understand. What Yui did is nothing that she could have done to correct Yuuya's rudeness, especially since she was just trying to help him.

Didn't you forget this operation is a joint research and development type and it's supervised by the UN?

Research and development involves SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats) analysis.

Originally Posted by grevierr

And any mention of anything Japan gets criticism by Yuuya.

Yuuya's job is to criticize the hardware i.e. if it doesn't match F15/F22, then it's junk. Yuuya just needs to remove his personal attacks on Yui.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sylphic

Losing while being in an awful tactical situation, heavily outnumbered, with trainee pilots who have less than 8 minutes of real combat experience between all of them clearly means the weapon system is ineffective amirite?

I'm not quite following your logic here... These aren't gundams. No TSF is going to blow entire chunks out of a beta army in one volley.

The professional military guys died as well.

Here's the thing: No, the machine isn't broken. It's parts all work. But it's flawed. It has an engine that can't maintain effective speeds, and is also limited in those speeds at that. That means you're constantly fighting your own vehicle to prevent your engine from stalling, dividing your attention between fighting BETA, and keeping the engine alive. Having to divide attention kills people.

Originally Posted by Sylphic

Yui isn't saying that he should get outdated machinery and deal with it. The unit he has is a training unit, so it makes sense that it is inadequate. The idea was for him to get used to handling and fighting in a Japanese TSF so he can be the test pilot for the next jointly developed TSF which is forthcoming. Instead he has an awful attitude where all he can think is Japanese = bad, Japanese TSF = irredeemable piece of shit rather than try and figure out how to use the Japanese TSF. The fact he calls it a piece of shit when it is clearly working on the front line shows his complete ignorance and inexperience. This is the reason why Yui is peeved and shits on him and his games.

Except that is what she tells him. Literally. "We can deal with it and if you can't you suck" while completely ignoring his valid complaints. Yes, he's being a rude prick about it, but him being a rude prick doesn't change that he's right. But what happens? Yui just ignores it. How is that attitude going to make a better TSF?

Here's the deal: While Yuuya is being a total prick, he is doing his job. Rudely, but still doing his job. He is there to pilot stuff and point out its flaws. That's what he's been doing. No, he doesn't need to "learn to fly" Japanese TSF, the entire idea is that the new joint TSF is going to be better, which means that he does need to point out the flaws in this TSF. If not, the team doesn't know what to improve.

Yui on the other hand, is a total bitch and endangering the entire project by ignoring the valid assessments of a test pilot (who, again, is brought in for the express purpose of pointing out stuff that doesn't work right) on the basis of... "well, we've trained to overcome it's flaws." Uhh... good for you, but what if you didn't need to train to overcome those flaws? What if you could instead use that training time to learn to survive and kill more BETA? What if you could just focus on killing BETA during the fight instead of keeping the engine running?

Isn't that the entire point of this project? To create a better TSF? Because what she spouted there is completely contradicting the entire purpose of the project.

[novalysis]

Let's face it. All of us agree that Yuuya and Yui are deeply flawed people. And to think some cynics predicted a fanservice fest in the first episode, when what we get instead is vociferous debates on characters!

If Muv Luv had a sub-forum, I'd think that Yuuya and Yui's character threads may well be the longest, amazingly.