2010-01-15, 03:33 | Link #2161 | |||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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anti-fantasy: makes use of any kind of theory, no matter how much ridiculous it is, to deny magic and supernatural true mystery: makes use of theories to deny magic and supernatural inside the preset limits of the mystery genre. Quote:
Also Bern doesn't have a "life", she doesn't have anything to do, that's why she is afflicted with boredom. Playing this kind of games is her life. Quote:
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1) From one side you have a narrator that tells you that George and the others have their necks almost completely slit, and a lot of people are seeing them and cry and scream. 2) From the other side you have a narrator that tells you that people go check the bodies and do not found them. That scene wasn't even shown, 'though it is confirmed in later dialogues. What makes you think that it is more probable that the first one was a lie rather than the second? Quote:
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2010-01-15, 03:35 | Link #2162 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-01-15, 03:38 | Link #2163 |
Intellectual Rapist
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I would like an answer to these two questions.
What is the kanji of areca nut? What is the romaji for areca nut? Thanks in advance. In case some people do not know the reference it is mentioned fairly early in this episode by Natsuhi. |
2010-01-15, 03:39 | Link #2164 | |
別にいいけど
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2010-01-15, 03:43 | Link #2165 |
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OK, I'll admit Lambda and Berun know at least some of the ultimate truth behind Umineko (it's hard to dispute that after the Ep 4 ??? tea party) - I was arguing more for the sake of argument above. However, the extent of that knowledge and whether they truly interpret the red truths known to them correctly is absolutely unverifiable at this point in the story.
Besides, would you care to explain why at the end of EP 5 Berun was perfectly satisfied that "case was closed", which was further approved by Lambda? Wouldn't it be more classy for a grand witch like Berun to obtain a fair win (i.e. present the real culprit, which, as you imply, must be known to her) rather than to cheat her way out?
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2010-01-15, 04:01 | Link #2167 | |
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2010-01-15, 04:04 | Link #2168 |
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Two witches are having a game to elevate boredom. Witch 1 proposes a riddle she already knows a solution to. Witch 2, who also knows the correct solution, proposes an alternative solution both of them know to be wrong. Furthermore, even the readers know the alternative solution to be wrong.
Supposedly this is all done for the benefit of Observer X in order to further confuse him. The problem is, Observer X is not even guaranteed to be present at the game at all. I have only one question: what is the point of the above? Or is it simply a textbook case of bad writing?
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2010-01-15, 04:19 | Link #2169 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
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In any case, based on Bern's conversations with Lambda and Ryukishi's interviews: - Lambda does know who the culprit is, since she's capable of being the game master. She can use the gold truth if she wants, since she knows what really happened. - Bern does not know who the culprit is and can't use the gold truth, but she doesn't care because exposing the real culprit wasn't her objective in the first place. What she wanted to do was destroy the witch's illusion by denying Beato's argument that only a witch could commit the crimes. Any trumped-up culprit would do for that. |
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2010-01-15, 04:23 | Link #2170 |
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They didn't care about Observer X in the slightest, they were purposely misusing the board for their own amusement. It was a game to corner and hurt one of the pieces, in order to gain plausible denial of the existence of Beato, not to expose the truth in any form.
That's what happens when you get people playing the game in order to "scribble on the board." All of this was laid out for the reader in the prologue of the game.
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2010-01-15, 04:27 | Link #2172 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Let me quote Lyrical Aura Quote:
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2010-01-15, 04:35 | Link #2173 | |
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1) that info you’ve presented can’t be inferred from the SN alone, which (even if the info itself is true) screams bad writing for me; 2) still doesn’t explain why Lambda acknowledged Berun’s victory at the end of Ep 5; 3) makes Berun’s actions look silly, because the only certain (and don’t forget, she’s playing with the Witch of Certainty there) way to defeat the Illusion of the Witch is to try to present the real culprit, not some half-baked fake.
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2010-01-15, 04:47 | Link #2174 |
Intellectual Rapist
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No, Bern doesn't care who the real culprit is really. Erika and Bern was going to let Natsuhi pin the crime on Krauss, so there is really no way they were looking for the true culprit. I don't think they minded pointing the true culprit out if they found it but they did not. Second, Battler is also lying because he will NOT point out the true culprit. The truth is something special to Battler as seen when he found it.
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2010-01-15, 04:54 | Link #2175 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Actually it should be pretty clear by now that Bern doesn't really give a rat's ass who wins or who loses as long as she's entertained. She pushes both sides along so as to let the game continue, and she's clearly manipulating and switching sides to keep the game going indefinitely. She doesn't care whether Erika discovers anything or not, hell she treats her like crap most of the time.
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2010-01-15, 05:47 | Link #2176 | |
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You are mistaken by just taking into account the fear of boredom witches have. Bern does hate being bored but she has stated several times that she wanted to speed this game up. Just in case someone who knows the answer doesn't scroll up enough. |
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2010-01-15, 06:03 | Link #2177 | |
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That's why I can understand Bern trying to frame someone (whether it's Natushi or Krauss) at the last moment out of desperation to win (to prove her intellectual superiority), but that by itself isn't proof enough she is an evil bitch bent on framing innocent people for her entertainment. That is oversimplifying things imho. And that was basically my point all along. Bern/Erika may be accused of a certain intellectual laziness or of lack of integrity, but at this point in the story it is unfair to judge them as acting out of an outright malice.
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Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2010-01-15 at 06:14. |
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2010-01-15, 06:45 | Link #2178 | |
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Not because of your theory but I believe Kanon might have a twin on the island so I thought you were going to say the same thing. In particular, the second episode convinces me that this is possible. I think this episode is very hard to explain without it because there is always a need for another person on the island. Erika keeps everyone pretty tightly knit together and unless she did not know you were gone she probably would have put a tracker on you just in case. The phone call around midnight of the first day is really awkward because mostly everyone has a decent alibi. Unless we consider Jessica hates her mother. |
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2010-01-15, 06:53 | Link #2179 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Another thing that is quite clear is the fact that Bern knows that Kinzo is dead. I present this fact: Lambda says in front of Bern and Battler that: "Kinzo is already dead" There is absolutely no possible way for Bern to doubt that. However Erika makes a theory that involves Kinzo being still alive, and Bern allows her to use that explanation. How do you explain that? Remember, Erika uses Kinzo as a way to explain how the bodies disappeared, so Bern knows well that this theory is false and therefore she knows she hasn't really found an explanation for this mystery. Quote:
Bern and Erika didn't find the truth, but Lambda accepted their victory anyway <- this is a fact Quote:
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2010-01-15, 06:58 | Link #2180 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
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After reaching a certain segment in the sixth game, yes, I guess I stand corrected on Bern. Of course there's still a lot of clarifications needed on her true objective, as she's clearly invested a lot of time and effort in this that a simple alleviation of boredom or a simple victory probably just doesn't suffice.
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