Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[jeroz]

I find it funny that the criticism for this arc is pretty much either "bad pacing" or "it doesn't have anime physics"

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

I wish we also had a flashback with Kirei and his wife.

You can hear the Drama Cds and the ED sequence for that.

[Yu Ominae]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Interesting.
So in the end there was an alternative that might've worked out without endangering any more lives.
Perhaps the author not being an expert in aviation probably never considered that chance.

Anyways, I suppose even if Kiritsugu were aware of that he would've still shot the plane down.

Reducing the causalities is one thing. As an incident related to magecraft they also had to do their best to clean up the mess.
Suddenly blowing up a passanger plane that just recently got down is rather extreme. Not to mention the possibility of people finding something in the wreckage.
And then there's the issue with the mysterious woman (Natalia) apparently escaping right before the plane exploded...

I wonder if it'd be possible for get the military and "clean up" the aircraft or will the Executors/Mage's Association step in La Guardia if it lands... Well IMO I don't know if those bees can survive fumigation before Exectors/Mages/spec ops raid the aircraft and waste the ghouls inside.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

I wish we also had a flashback with Kirei and his wife.

Wait until Heaven's Feel get animated, which might mean never :P

[FlareKnight]

It was a good episode. Sure I think they could have shortened it a bit, but if they were going to spend an episode on Kiritsugu's past then might as well do it like they did here. Sure a lot of things about Natalia's death were kind of predictable, but it was still good. You knew she was dead the second she went on that plane and that her target probably hid the bees inside his body. Though it did take a bit to realize that Kiritsugu was going to blast the plane out of the sky.

Making a different decision compared to the Shirley situation, but not ending up any happier for it. Of course a different situation since Shirley could only be saved by death. Rather than risking the casualties if the plane landed he made sure the only casualties would be those on the plane already. No shock he kind of lost it for a bit there. Did kill this mother figure and frankly someone he felt more affection for than his father.

This was important for giving some context to what Kiritsugu is now. A real mess of a person with all that's happened and what will likely happen going forward.

Of course now the race is on with this series. The death count is going to have to really pick up since they only have so much time.

[Vicious108]

Much like last week, the entire episode was build up to the emphatic final scene, and, even more so than last time, said scene certainly didn't disappoint. One of the most powerful endings to an anime episode I've seen. Kudos to Rikiya Koyama for an accordingly great performance. Kiritsugu's proving to be an even more tragic figure than I had initially envisioned, and unfortunately for him I doubt his suffering will be over anytime soon. How much more broken can the man get, one has to wonder.

Also, that second OST needs to come out ASAP. That long track which accompanied this episode's introductory scene was a thing of beauty. Dem guitar riffs~

[Allium]

What a coincidence; this episode just had to air on Mother's Day...

I liked this episode somewhat better than the previous one. The pacing is smoother and the BGM is spot on in most of the scenes. With Ep 18 and 19, we have a full picture of Kiritsugu and how did he turn out to be the person he is in the present storyline. In my opinion, the producers handled it very well - the only thing I can complain about is that we should have gotten the flashback eps earlier. At this point, it's interrupting the story, and as much as I liked the flashbacks, I'm glad that we're returning to the Holy Grail War next episode.

My favourite scene was when Kiritsugu was going to shoot down the plane. The position of the seagulls around him, the amazing BGM - everything was just right. That scene alone seemed to exemplify Kiritsugu's character, especially his consequentialist ideals. It was tense and heartbreaking to watch. Kiritsugu's broken through and through, as we see during his breakdown after the plane explodes. I think Rikiya Koyama did a good job portraying Kiritsugu this episode.

So...yay, we're back to the battle next episode!

[Ragna92]

5/5.. amazing episode. I'm speechless.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Allium

What a coincidence; this episode just had to air on Mother's Day...

I wonder about that ...

In any case, the director is going to have some pretty awkward(ly hilarious) phone call


http://www.tsukikan.com/misc/fate-ze...interview.html

--It seems recently you've been interviewed by all kinds of media about Fate/Zero.

Aoki: Thanks everyone for once again making me feel the enormous influence of the "Fate" franchise. What surprised me was that even my mother was watching Fate/Zero (Laughs). She seems to enjoy it, even the re-runs, I was really surprised.

Happy mothers day?

[zero7090]

Originally Posted by Allium

What a coincidence; this episode just had to air on Mother's Day...

you forgot the conspiracy they had with last 2 ep of madoka?

btw: what is the success chance of the "Natalia shoot the cockpit glasses and jump out, dive into the water before the plane explode" plan?

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by zero7090

you forgot the conspiracy they had with last 2 ep of madoka?

btw: what is the success chance of the "Natalia shoot the cockpit glasses and jump out, dive into the water before the plane explode" plan?

Pretty much impossible. Falling into the water from over twenty stories up would have been equivalent to impacting a concrete surface from the same height. In addition, the chance of landing the airliner into the water, without having it explode into shrapnel, would have been extremely low.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoftWater

Originally Posted by Jyuukenbu

As The Economist quotes: "In the history of aviation the number of wide-bodied aircraft that have made successful landings on water is zero."

Aviation Consumer Action Project: A wide-bodied jet would "shatter like a raw egg dropped on pavement, killing most if not all passengers on impact, even in calm seas with well-trained pilots and good landing trajectories."

Additionally, Kiritsugu already weighed all the possibilities.There is no possibility of Natalia surviving before all these Ghouls are completely destroyed. The only way to deal with this airliner full of Ghouls is to make it plunge into the Atlantic Ocean. The operation to eliminate the “Demonic Bee User” is achieved at the cost of the lives of all the passengers and crew and Natalia Kaminski – Kiritsugu was already prepared for this outcome.

But Kiritsugu knew his teacher would definitely demonstrate her amazing abilities at the last moment. Natalia, who held on to the creed of ‘must survive no matter what’, may prevent the body of the plane from crushing in order to save her own life. Kiritsugu must consider this as well – that would be the unpredictable worst result.

Natalia, who prioritizes her life above all else, must choose this outcome without hesitation after weighing out the risks.

Land the airliner filled with 300 Ghouls at the airport and release these hungry dead – she would definitely choose this method if there were no other choices. Kiritsugu had already made the preparations to deal with this 10000-to-1 possibility precisely because Kiritsugu knew her too well.

In order to prevent the disaster from expanding further, the A300 must not be allowed to land.

That is the unswayable truth regardless of Natalia’s welfare.

tl;dr: Natalia would only land at the airport if that was her only option left. If there was a 1% chance of surviving an ocean landing, she would have taken it.

[monir]

Rarely do I give out a 9 due to my stingy nature when it comes to rating, but this episode was executed so very well. Almost everything was perfect. Kiritsugu easily has been the highlight of Fate/Zero and this background on him just enhances his character so much despite the severe limitation imposed on him. That burst of emotion at the end changed my initial impression about the episode where I was ready to peg it down as melodramatic.

Excellent!

Originally Posted by zero7090

btw: what is the success chance of the "Natalia shoot the cockpit glasses and jump out, dive into the water before the plane explode" plan?

In addition to what LunarMoon said, the speed she was travelling at also made sure there is no safe escape. Her body would have torn apart at the first contact with the water at that speed. Chances of her surviving was virtually zero.

[MrTerrorist]

Such a tragic past did Kerry had. He lost the girl he love and let her become a monster, killed his father outta of revenge and was force to kill his "mother" for everyone's sake.

10 out of 10.

[Kanon]

This episode gave me a different impression from the novel. In the novel, it was made clear by the narration that Natalia was convinced Kiritsugu was in a hotel in New York, and therefore did not have the slightest suspicion he was going blow the plane up. On the other hand, the anime made it seem like she was perfectly aware of what Kiritsugu intended to do and accepted her death, like her dying smile indicates.

Of course, it doesn't change anything for Kiritsugu, but it changes my impression of Natalia's character.

[Upscaled]

Sorry to get into an unnecessarily technical detail that's largely irrelevant to the thrust of the story, but I have some questions for those more knowledgeable than I am about aviation &/or the nature of these magical bees. Would the shooting down of a large airliner at low altitude, with most of its fuel spent, with a single, shoulder-mounted missile, guarantee the elimination of all the bees? In the anime, the plane exploded and disintegrated in mid-air. Would that really have happened with the amount of fuel left in the plane after a trans-Atlantic flight? Given that bees are much smaller than humans, thus less affected by sudden acceleration and less likely to be struck by debris, what is the likelihood that some bees might have survived the mid-air disintegration? Or were the bees already "spent," after having infected the passengers?

[zero7090]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Pretty much impossible. Falling into the water from over twenty stories up would have been equivalent to impacting a concrete surface from the same height. In addition, the chance of landing the airliner into the water, without having it explode into shrapnel, would have been extremely low.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoftWater

Originally Posted by monir

In addition to what LunarMoon said, the speed she was travelling at also made sure there is no safe escape. Her body would have torn apart at the first contact with the water at that speed. Chances of her surviving was virtually zero.

hmm how about a water landing then? process with destroying the plane?

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by zero7090

hmm how about a water landing then? process with destroying the plane?

There would still be a change someone would die in that situation. A bee or a ghoul could escape or collateral damage could kill someone.

Kiritsugu always goes for the choice which has the most certainty of saving the most people.

[zero7090]

hmm i wonder if the bee or ghoul could die 10)% when you stack enough C4 and blow it up in the middle of the sea.

[maelstormCaT]

As someone who's well versed in type/moon series, allow me to share my explanation on Kiritsugu's action on this episode.

Keep in mind that in his childhood, Kiritsugu holds the idea of becoming a hero of justice.

The reason why Kiritsugu shoot down the plane is because that he discern that there's a risk of the undead spilling out upon landing. If that happens, a lot of people would die before the undead/bees can be taken down. He decided that the only way to drop that risk to 0% is by shooting down the plane. As much as Natalia is important to him, the danger to the millions of lives outweighs that feeling. So he pulled the trigger.

This act, is a turning point of his life, more than what happened in his village. His image of a hero has been shattered; he realize that he cannot save everyone, and that often like, sacrifice must be made, even those that are important to you. To save hundreds you must sacrifice dozens, to save billions you sacrifice millions.

By the end of the episode he broke down because of that. At that point of his life, he died, all that left is an emotionless husk that soon become renowned as the 'Mage Killer'.

ps: Natalia's smile at the end, that's because she realizes just how much she knows about him. She's not sure where he is, but the thought of what he would do does crossed her mind. So when he shot the plane, I'm sure that she smile and thought, 'Hah, I knew it...'

PS: the undeads/'bees' cannot survive long without feeding, so any that survived the explosion would've just died after a while from lack of sustenance. Sustenance as in life force btw, not food or brains.... so droping them to the ocean is a safe option with very minimal risk.
You might argue that fishes are sustenance, but even animals can sense the evil presence from the undead, and thus stayed away from the bodies. Animal instinct and all.

[maelstormCaT]

Oh, one more thing.

Natalia who always values surviving the mission won't even consider a water landing. At the speed they're going, it would be unlikely for her to successfully landed the plane. And in the unlikely chance that she does survive, don't forget that she's still be trapped in a plane filled with undead/bees, so her survival would be unlikely.

Of course, with Kiritsugu nearby, there might be a 1% chance that she might survive the ordeal... but as the matter stands, she doesn't know that.

And so, she choose to land the plane, and so, Kiritsugu shot it down.

why? because at that speed, there's small chance that the plane will landed intact. Most probably it would be damaged and the content will spill out.