Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Somehow, the Sakura thing actually makes sense. Seeing as Ilya probably thought Sakura was hogging all the Shirou

Well, whilst Ilya does actually know the nature of the shadow, she doesn't seem overly bothered about it (mostly because she doesn't want Shirou following the same path as her father, I suspect), and she really doesn't seem to me to be the sort of person to make really subtle digs like that.

It's just him projecting his own Sakura hatred onto Nasu when there is simply none there.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Somehow, the Sakura thing actually makes sense. Seeing as Ilya probably thought Sakura was hogging all the Shirou

It can apply to all the girls, not just Sakura. Ilya would have just as much reason to feel that way about Saber (possibly even more).

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

It can apply to all the girls, not just Sakura. Ilya would have just as much reason to feel that way about Saber (possibly even more).

Uhh, why?? I don't see why Ilya would hate one of her mother's close people. I don't see why Saber would do the same. Especially when Saber protects him, and it seems you've forgotten that dojo scene. They wouldn't have a reason to hate. Would most likely be the opposite actually. Unless you would like to give me a reason...

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, whilst Ilya does actually know the nature of the shadow, she doesn't seem overly bothered about it (mostly because she doesn't want Shirou following the same path as her father, I suspect), and she really doesn't seem to me to be the sort of person to make really subtle digs like that.

It's just him projecting his own Sakura hatred onto Nasu when there is simply none there.

?Who's 'him'. Though I get what you mean. I won't be able to argue this unless I actually watch that scene which was most likely one of the everyday scenes.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Uhh, why?? I don't see why Ilya would hate one of her mother's close people. I don't see why Saber would do the same. Especially when Saber protects him, and it seems you've forgotten that dojo scene. They wouldn't have a reason to hate. Would most likely be the opposite actually. Unless you would like to give me a reason...

By the dojo scene Ilya had calmed down quite a bit. Before then though Saber would just be someone who was hogging the interest of Shirou and someone whose presence took her parents away from her. Sakura was only an issue of Shirou's interest.

[mirakura]

No, not true. The person who Ilya thinks took Kerry from her is Shirou. And Ilya knows about Iri already. Ilya doesn't hold any hostile feelings for Saber, infact Ilya was pretty normal by the time Shirou took her in. It was Saber that was being hostile because 1) Jealousy(for the first time ever XD) 2) Ilya was a previous master. For all she knows, she could kill Shirou and take his command seals :O

The dojo scene proves they don't hate each other, as does the other scenes.

Instead of a full blown argument about something that is obvious, this:

Originally Posted by GAME

"No. I think Ilya should stay here.
The Holy Grail War isn't over yet. I want to shelter her here until the end."



"…! Ilya, it hurts, it hurts…!"

Ilya hugs me, but I get her off of mewell, there's no need to do that myself as Saber does it for me.



I, for one, am glad we have Saber here to cockblock Ilya.


"Of course! I will not forget what you did to Shirou…! You too, Shirou! Do you not realize that sheltering Ilyasviel will only bring you harm!?"


"Hey, why is that? Ilya doesn't have her Servant now, so she can't be dangerous. She's not a Master anymore.
More importantly, what will you do if she gets attacked by another Master after you abandon her? Ilya's life would be in danger, and the other Master would gain power."



Music: Stop

Saber hesitates.
Whatever she may say, Saber does understand that Ilya would be attacked by other Masters if she was left alone.



Look, Shirou. She's still a Master. I told you that a Master is a Master until they lose their Command Spell, even if they happen to lose their Servant."

With this as proof, Ilya never hated Saber. I have no idea where you got 'she had calmed down by then' from cos all that happened in the same day. They were hours apart. Of course, the reason why she stopped being hostile to Shirou was because of what he did. But Saber still treated her as an enemy, and Ilya still didn't hate her then.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Plus, if he called Saber, she'd just get Archer to appear, and it would just mean he'd wasted a command spell. He assumed he could escape from her without it.



Yeah, this. Rin isn't someone whose first thought is going to be "kill the 10-year-old child". Even when she goes after Shirou in UBW, she notably doesn't kill (or even maim) him if she wins.



I think you're reading way too much into it there. It's just a common German nursery rhyme, I doubt Nasu even knew what the meaning of it is, let alone intending it to have some subtle anti-Sakura inference in her own route. Especially since it's used as Ilya's theme song in all three routes....

Also, I was aware of that for a long time. The song is even colled "Die Lorelei" in the soundtrack....

I'm pretty certain he did. Much like how he included English words for UBW. You don't randomly include a nursey rhyme in a foreign language you don't undrrstand for your super serious story for the sake of it.

It's called Die Lorelei because that's the name of the song. There's a place called Lorelei which is what it's about.

Also Ilya sings the song after a specific point in HF, she doesn't do this in the other two routes.

[mirakura]

And this:

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by GAME

"Yeah. I thought so this morning as well, but Shirou sure is a good cook.
I think eating good food is a good thing."

On the other hand, Ilya is stuffing in her sandwich, full of energy.

Why does that have to sound so dirty?



I don't know if she's out of control or just copying me.
Ilya usually seems more well-mannered than Saber, but that doesn't seem to apply to dining manners.


"Hold on, Ilyasviel. Your hair will get dirty if you stay like that."


Saber places a napkin against Ilya's cheek.
Something like butter must've been on there as Saber wipes around Ilya's mouth.



"…Thanks. But what is this? You don't like me, right?"



"Yes, I am still on guard right now. But I understand people's hearts as well.
You bear no hostility and Shirou has accepted you as a guest.[This is her instinct]
So I will use minimal manners. And"
"And?"

[The Iri reference]

That must have been from the bottom of her heart.
Saber's voice is the same as always. It doesn't sound like she's thinking about Ilya.

""
Ilya stares at Saber.
And I realize.
Ilya has never directly looked at Saber until now.
For Ilya, Saber was just my Servant and not someone that deserved to be treated as a human.



Well, I can consider you as well. I can make Shirou win, but I can't protect him."

Ilya says so while shrugging her shoulders and eats her sandwich.



Saber answers Ilya plainly.
The conversation is the same as before, but their voices sound more gentle.

My point being, your getting this wrong :3

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I'm pretty certain he did. Much like how he included English words for UBW. You don't randomly include a nursey rhyme in a foreign language you don't undrrstand for your super serious story for the sake of it.

It's called Die Lorelei because that's the name of the song. There's a place called Lorelei which is what it's about.

Also Ilya sings the song after a specific point in HF, she doesn't do this in the other two routes.

Lol, I thought it was about Lorelei Barthomeloi (if I spelt it right)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Uhh, why?? I don't see why Ilya would hate one of her mother's close people. I don't see why Saber would do the same. Especially when Saber protects him, and it seems you've forgotten that dojo scene. They wouldn't have a reason to hate. Would most likely be the opposite actually. Unless you would like to give me a reason...

Erm, Saber is an enemy, and I don't think Ilya would even know her, and certainly not her relationship with Iri. Similarly, Saber doesn't recognise Ilya.

Originally Posted by mirakura

With this as proof, Ilya never hated Saber. I have no idea where you got 'she had calmed down by then' from cos all that happened in the same day. They were hours apart. Of course, the reason why she stopped being hostile to Shirou was because of what he did. But Saber still treated her as an enemy, and Ilya still didn't hate her then.

Ilya doesn't hate Sakura either, though. Post Fate, they end up as friends, and in HF Ilya just has some issues with Sakura because she knows what Sakura is. There's never any hate there.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I'm pretty certain he did. Much like how he included English words for UBW. You don't randomly include a nursey rhyme in a foreign language you don't undrrstand for your super serious story for the sake of it.

Right, because Nasu totally never uses gratuitous foreign words he doesn't understand....

It's called Die Lorelei because that's the name of the song. There's a place called Lorelei which is what it's about.

Yes, but it's also a Nursery Rhyme in Germany....

Also Ilya sings the song after a specific point in HF, she doesn't do this in the other two routes.

Yes, because HF is also Ilya's route to an extent. It's there to give character development to her. It has precisely fuck-all to do with Sakura.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Erm, Saber is an enemy, and I don't think Ilya would even know her, and certainly not her relationship with Iri. Similarly, Saber doesn't recognise Ilya.



Ilya doesn't hate Sakura either, though. Post Fate, they end up as friends, and in HF Ilya just has some issues with Sakura because she knows what Sakura is. There's never any hate there.



Right, because Nasu totally never uses gratuitous foreign words he doesn't understand....



Yes, but it's also a Nursery Rhyme in Germany....



Yes, because HF is also Ilya's route to an extent. It's there to give character development to her. It has precisely fuck-all to do with Sakura.

That he has a rough understanding of yes. I mean seriously he didn't put a foreign song have it sung by a major character during an important period for no reason at all.

It's not difficult to find the translation of something famous, it's far more difficult to use foreign words.

Your being utterly ridiculous how the hell do you think he even knows the mythologies of all these characters that aren't Japanese. Of fucking course he read translations. It's asinine to even imply otherwise.

Seriously now come on.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

That he has a rough understanding of yes. I mean seriously he didn't put a foreign song have it sung by a major character during an important period for no reason at all.

Of course not, but he did it for Ilya's development, and because he likes the sound and tone of the rhyme. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Sakura.

It's not difficult to find the translation of something famous, it's far more difficult to use foreign words.

Your being utterly ridiculous how the hell do you think he even knows the mythologies of all these characters that aren't Japanese. Of fucking course he read translations. It's asinine to even imply otherwise.

Seriously now come on.

Yeah, but Die Lorelei isn't that famous. Not enough that it would be expected to have a Japanese translation. Particularly since it's a poem, and poems tend not to translate too well. Plus, even if he could translate it, none of the readers likely could, so what would be the point?

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, but Die Lorelei isn't that famous. Not enough that it would be expected to have a Japanese translation. Particularly since it's a poem, and poems tend not to translate too well. Plus, even if he could translate it, none of the readers likely could, so what would be the point?

It is very common for the writers to put in references that readers may never catch up on.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Of course not, but he did it for Ilya's development, and because he likes the sound and tone of the rhyme. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Sakura.



Yeah, but Die Lorelei isn't that famous. Not enough that it would be expected to have a Japanese translation. Particularly since it's a poem, and poems tend not to translate too well. Plus, even if he could translate it, none of the readers likely could, so what would be the point?

Why include it in story at all in such a important fashion if it served no point. your contradicting yourself. Of course it served a point.

[GreyZone]

With all those BS "magic spell incantations" in German there is no way that I will believe that Nasu knowns what the German stuff is about. I can only once again see people overinterpreting things here just to somehow "proove" which is the best "waifu" or something like that.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

With all those BS "magic spell incantations" in German there is no way that I will believe that Nasu knowns what the German stuff is about. I can only once again see people overinterpreting things here just to somehow "proove" which is the best "waifu" or something like that.

Like I said. This is something that has almost certainly been translated into Japanese much like all of these myths and legends so this argument makes no sense (like none at all, I seriously can't believe someone would actually use it). Being able to read something in another language that someone has already translated is not the same as attempting to write in another language.

One is easy the other requires you to have a good understanding of the language. It's not difficult to see when the former has occurred and when the later has.
It's not rocket science guys. Your on an anime board which relies on this damn concept, why is this so foreign to you?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Why include it in story at all in such a important fashion if it served no point. your contradicting yourself. Of course it served a point.

I never said the scene served no point, I said that the specific words aren't what is important (and that there is certainly no evidence of it being a reference to Sakura). The whole concept of her singing something like that (and the nature of what she is singing) is important.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Like I said. This is something that has almost certainly been translated into Japanese much like all of these myths and legends so this argument makes no sense (like none at all, I seriously can't believe someone would actually use it). Being able to read something in another language that someone has already translated is not the same as attempting to write in another language.

I wouldn't say it has "almost certainly" been translated into Japanese. It's not the most well-known song in the world.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Like I said. This is something that has almost certainly been translated into Japanese much like all of these myths and legends so this argument makes no sense (like none at all, I seriously can't believe someone would actually use it). Being able to read something in another language that someone has already translated is not the same as attempting to write in another language.

One is easy the other requires you to have a good understanding of the language. It's not difficult to see when the former has occurred and when the later has.
It's not rocket science guys. Your on an anime board which relies on this damn concept, why is this so foreign to you?

Even if that is so, assuming she is "hating on Sakura" from that is baseless. I may as well claim that Illya is singing about herself. Remember that in Fate route she was doing EXACTLY what a Siren does with the hypnotising spell.

[mirakura]

Yeah, but we know that's a spell. We don't know what Ilya means when she sings cos it's in Shirou POV. We're not in Ilya's head so she could be hating on Sakura and she could not. There're reasons why she could hate on Sakura and there are reasons why she shouldn't. None of you are going to be right when we don't know what Ilya's thinking....

...............

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Erm, Saber is an enemy, and I don't think Ilya would even know her, and certainly not her relationship with Iri. Similarly, Saber doesn't recognise Ilya.



Ilya doesn't hate Sakura either, though. Post Fate, they end up as friends, and in HF Ilya just has some issues with Sakura because she knows what Sakura is. There's never any hate there.



Right, because Nasu totally never uses gratuitous foreign words he doesn't understand....

How did I miss this??

1) Saber recognises Ilya. She just thought that Iri's daughter would've matured by then. And yes, Ilya also recognises Saber. She knows who her father's servant was and she even says it :3

2) I didn't say she hated Sakura...I think. Theres reasons why she wouldn't like her, of course that only applies to HF route. And there's reasons why she would like her. Post Fate, the things that happened in HF that would make Ilya dislike Sakura, didn't happen. And Sakura has pretty good chemistry with everyone, so what's stopping them from being friends?

3) Haha funny XD

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I never said the scene served no point, I said that the specific words aren't what is important (and that there is certainly no evidence of it being a reference to Sakura). The whole concept of her singing something like that (and the nature of what she is singing) is important.



I wouldn't say it has "almost certainly" been translated into Japanese. It's not the most well-known song in the world.

The fact this is not the first time I've come across Lorelei in Japanese media implies otherwise. I mean chu chulain and diarmuid are equally unknown.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Even if that is so, assuming she is "hating on Sakura" from that is baseless. I may as well claim that Illya is singing about herself. Remember that in Fate route she was doing EXACTLY what a Siren does with the hypnotising spell.

I'm not saying she's hating Sakura I'm saying that could have been her observation for the whole event. The fact she knows Sakura will lead him to his death (the full ending that does so). Notice how she's the one that saves him in the end?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

The fact this is not the first time I've come across Lorelei in Japanese media implies otherwise. I mean chu chulain and diarmuid are equally unknown.

Diarmuid sure, but Cu Chulain is randomly super popular in JRPGs. He's probably the third most prominent historical "hero" that I've seen, behind Arthur and Gilgamesh.

That said... seriously? Has this argument about whether a song has some deep-seated meaning really gone on for almost an entire page now? You aren't even saying anything new, and there's nothing to substantiate either claim enough to actually convince the other side.

[mirakura]

Lol, exactly the reason why I tried to end it :3