Spice and Wolf II - Episode 12 (END) Discussion / Poll

[SwiftStrike]

Guess they concluded-but not as well as I would have liked, with a few questions of what happens to Abe n such.. Looking forward to the next season if there is (of course..there's still the novels--wonder if they'l ever come back to the one they skipped)

the only OVA is the ep 00 or is there more?

[FTGT]

WOOOHOOOOO!!

LAWRENCE FINALLY SAID IT!
He made it plain and simple. Without any room for a misunderstanding. GOSH DARN IT..... he really did it, didnt he? Im so proud!

And then I nearly missed a little miracle (I needed to watch that scene several times). I would never have expected this at all even throughout the whole 12 S&W novels (and as someone mentioned, it seems as if this wasnt in the novel).

Lawrence + Horo =

Could someone pinch me? I think Im dreaming.

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

The other thing is this kiss everyones talking about. As someone pointed out, it wasn't a kiss. At least not a human one. They rubbed noses, so i guess in wolf language thats a kiss, but there was certainly no passionate human kiss or anything. Horos tail when he walked in defiantly was awesome though.

Originally Posted by Rawrs

Glad someone else noticed this

I have to wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe Im wrong here, but from my point of view Lawrence does not know about the "rubbing nose = wolf kiss" aspect, since he didnt get what Horo was referring to in the OVA. And if you watch that scene in the OVA again, where Horo imagines Lawrence giving her a "nose rubbing", it looks different imo. Here he pauses after touching her lips. He gives her a short (but tender) kiss, as if to tell her "kick me as hard as you can, I dont care, I still love you from the bottom of my heart".
(*sing* She's a mean mean wolf, but she's my my wolf *sing*)

Oh Man.... I was waiting for that "smacker" since episode 4 of the first season, when that "half kiss" took place. YES YES YES....WOOOHOOOO...... GET ON UP PEOPLE.... TIME TO DANCE!


BUT, the thing that nearly destroyed the mood for me throughout the episode was the quality of the animation. It often seemed "unfinished" to me. That was the biggest disappointment.

The story on the other hand is above reproach for me. Not much to complain at all. This two postings did the best roundup imo:

Spoiler for only for avoiding novel post:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

And so my final review for season 2 of Spice and Wolf comes up...

----------------

Are the ups and downs of season 2, which in certain respects is arguably less stellar than season 1, worth the final 5 minutes of the finale?

You damn well better believe it!

Lawrence may just have been cheated and bled dry for whatever he could have earned in this town that would have granted him the resources to open his own shop, but in return he went away with some far greater, far more rewarding than a stone store and a bag of coins. There is of course no way to be apologetic for what Abe did which is tantamount to stealing anyway, but she did have a point: doing everything, whatever it takes, to get what you are looking for. Even to the point where society calls you greedy, immoral and... well evil. She was greedy for money that is almost pathological, but she did not question nor did she waver. She knew what she wanted and did what she felt was needed to accomplish it. By fair of foul she got it.

"I'm hoping."

Mt first run through the episode I really didn't get what she meant. I started to think back about what she said and what Lawrence had been doing up to this point in season 2; the pyrite fiasco most importantly. I re-evaluated Abe's intentions and Lawrence's actions during the moments when it was oh so clear that he may lose Horo. That was when I think I realized what Abe meant:

Hoping that, in the end, it was all worth it to get what one is looking for.

Lawrence understood it by then. Finding out what he really wants, and doing whatever it takes to find it and keep it, even if it entails sacrifice, loss and potentially financial ruin. Given his circumstances in episode 12 I personally don't think he lost much, since the money was pretty much what he got for selling Horo, and by getting the rights to the inn in exchange for the gold Abe took in the end it all balanced itself out. Sort of. However he now owned the inn, he could have made it his own store, but he didn't. He traded the property for Horo back.

When I think about it now, this entire episode sums up what season 2 was all about: Lawrence growing and figuring out what it is, truly, that is most important to him. He says it is Horo but it is as if he was still unsure about it. He doesn't really have confidence in this decision considering a rather strained trust and air between them in the likes I haven't seen since season 1. He could never really tell Horo how or what he felt, because even then he was still unsure. Nearing the end of this episode however, despite whatever reservations you have about the character, Abe hit the nail on the head, right smack and center.

Because Lawrence was also hoping. Hoping that despite Horo's feelings and his dream of being a shop owner coming into conflict with his desire to travel with her, he'd find a way to continue the journey of a lifetime. Before all of this he was unsure and indecisive, the complete opposite of how he deals in commerce, which is really not all that unusual personally. He was always worried of striking the balance between his mercantile lifestyle and his relationship with Horo. He was also worried of his desire to travel with her conflicting with his desire to open his own shop.

He was hoping to achieve all of them, but only now did he really realize that the same fact of commerce applies to life and relationships: You can't have everything, you have to make a choice. Economics had always revolved around the fact that goods are limited, you can't have everything, so things are obtained by the highest bidder willing to make the greatest sacrifice to gain what they want and/or need. The same thing applied to his own life but he didn't realize it, much to his irony. This is why, with this episode, he decided to choose.

So he went back to the trading company, full of the confidence and the determination that characterized him back in season 1. He traded it all in for Horo. Why? Because he decided to choose his dream.

He chose Horo.

----------------

So now that I've finally realized that the second season is over and I have to wait an entire fucking year for season 3, I'm going to roll myself into a fetal position and cry myself to sleep, eagerly awaiting the day I may travel with these two once again.

Originally Posted by bbee

Your review is a very good analysis of the part of S&W that makes it enjoyable: the organic character growth, their familiar banter, slice-of-life setting, well rounded side characters, and the slowly simmering romance.

You don't mention, however, the insanely convoluted ways that they choose to involve Horo in Lawrence's crazy dealings. Or the fact that pretty much all the drama would be deflated with some more communication between Horo and Lawrence (the drama at the end of the pyrite arc falls apart if Horo had talked). Oh, and the standard anime trapping of brickwall male lead paired with tsundere female.
I can predict right now without having read the novel that S3 will feature even more insane and unlikely ways for Lawrence's personal and economic intrerests to combine in an effort to center the drama around the relationship with Horo.

What I will say for the show, is that it has some amazingly well-written, aptly placed and subtle dialogue, which I'm sure is pulled straight from the novel. Season 2 was actually more enjoyable for me than the first, due to these character interactions. Oh, and the OP is probably the best of the year.

6/10, enjoyable watch if you can forgive the flaws and sit back for the ride.

Both of you have a point there. That are the "Pros" and "Cons" of this season. No doubt. Its just that every viewer has to decide for him/herself if the sometimes convoluted and undramatic story is compensated by the shining main couple and their magic moments.

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

...
As an aside, I honestly can't wait for her to use the whole "don't you love me anymore?" excuse to get what she wants now He may have won the battle, but he probably just lost the war.

...truth be told, he never had a chance of winning in the long run. And he will lose with a smile on his face.



I would like to give this 10/10, but due to the lack in quality its only a.... .... *sigh*... ...dammit, I know its not logical, but the show still is:
10/10

All Hail to the Tail!


Oh folks..... Now I miss this show even more than after the first season. All my wishes came true, except the animation quality. But I leave that to the third season!

See you then.....

*FTGT grabs the translation of novel*

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by FTGT

I have to wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe Im wrong here, but from my point of view Lawrence does not know about the "rubbing nose = wolf kiss" aspect, since he didnt get what Horo was referring to in the OVA. And if you watch that scene in the OVA again, where Horo imagines Lawrence giving her a "nose rubbing", it looks different imo. Here he pauses after touching her lips. He gives her a short (but tender) kiss, as if to tell her "kick me as hard as you can, I dont care, I still love you from the bottom of my heart".

True, I almost thought he intentionally rubbed noses as he "kissed" her! Lawrence, you sly bastard..

I feel it was precisely his lack of obvious passion that made the "kiss" so epic. She kicks him in the chest and tries to change the topic forcefully to save face. So what does he do? He counterattacks her as if to say "this is just a small sample of what you are missing by being stubborn". You can see in her eyes just how effective that counterattack really was. I wonder if he had done that earlier, rather than kissing her on the hand first, if she would have melted completely.

Originally Posted by FTGT

...truth be told, he never had a chance of winning in the long run. And he will lose with a smile on his face.

Of course, and he knows that But any battle he can win against her is a HUGE upset, and she knows it. He totally destroyed her this time, and definitely won her love and adoration (and her abuse, because he clearly has a masochistic side).

In fact, the only moment where I was really disappointed in the episode was:
"You defied my foolishness with everything you had. That's why.. I.. [audience is screaming 'tell him you love him!'] I'll go along with your foolishness."

[kenshin-dono]

yeesh dont check for a bit and got all these posts to go through.

quoting them all would take forever. I guess that scene that was in question makes sense now, it was just worded very strangely. I kinda got what it meant but needed some confirmation and several replays. I wonder if the frostii or sfw sub will make it clearer.

im still confused about the whole abe thing and what she was 'hoping' for. I had forgotten about the post FTGT refrenced above. I guess that makes some sense. "Hoping that, in the end, it was all worth it to get what one is looking for"

the thing is i dont think she knew what the hell she wanted or was looking for. She was just blindly going for money but i dont think thats what she really wanted. Was she really willing to throw everything aside to reach a goal shes not even sure she wants?

Its still kinda vague to me but at least that general mentality got through to lawrence. after watching it again the line near the end stood out

"Abe is risking her life to pursuit profit, fully aware that the appeal will die once she attains it. That attitude is something i should learn as a merchant"
*this is where horo finally puts her tail down*
"Thats why i thought id try doing the same thing"

i think that hits Horo more than lawrence there. Its that line that has her finally put her guard down. Her whole thing has been worryin about getting hurt, trying to keep the memories where they were, or the 'luster' fading, or how hard the parting at the end will be. He's saying that the end of their journey may be sad, and you could get hurt, but that the actual journey is where the joy is. You have to risk getting hurt in order to actually gain any happiness. Thats how i view it anyway. It ties into his "its possible your wish wont be fullfilled. But if you dont wish at all, it definatly wont be fullfilled" line right before that

I think Bash is over analyzing what shes asking him to take responsibility for a bit
I think its as simple as her saying he will have to take responsibility that hes in a pretty much lose lose situation here that will most likely end badly

on the 'kiss' .. sorry but it still seems like he rubs her nose. I rewatched the one from ep 00 and it pretty much matches the part where hes pulling away in that episode. I dont see it as an actual kiss. Their lips are not actually touching except for a second as hes pulling back. If that was somehow a kiss then it was the most piss poor animation ive seen in my life

so really the only thing im not very clear on is what the hell Abe was talking about with that 'hope' line. Her desire to chase after the money and just hoping it will make her happy just doesn't make sense, it seemed like she wanted to be anything BUT like her owner.

oh and what happened to the old man! seriously, i wonder if abe offed him.

couple of random floater questions:

just an oddity. what was with the scene where lawrence is staring at his cart? Had he been robbed?

is it abe or eve? both sfw and frostii use eve but mazui uses abe. its hard to tell because Japanese dont really use E's well. I would think it would be Abe since the point was to hide shes a woman

i really cant decide what sub version to keep. the wording in episode 12 with mazui is kinda screwy, but that could be just because the dialogs conviluded. I'll have to compare it to frostii when it somces out. I also started d.loading SFW's. I guess the best thing to do would be just watch the whole series all 3 back to back every episode, jot down mistakes/odd wording and tally it all up in the end =P god thatll take a while and i need the last epps from frostii and sfw first

which version are you guys keeping? Frostii is rated well but honestly i dont like their subs. They seem to reword stuff and you lose the intent a lot. I.e. in episode 00 at the very end. Frostiis release had me totally miss that horo was asking nora the best way to herd sheep/i.e. the best way to get lawrence. I initially saw the BSS release and it was quite clear but the frostii version just says 'whats a shepards most important quality' If i had only seen that i would have no clue what the laugh was at the end. Theres a lot of other little translation liberties they took im not a huge fan of

grr i want to just get cracking on the back to back watching but not much point untill i have ep 12 of each

I never read novels/manga but this shows got me looking at the novel translations, and the announcment of a season 3 black lagoon has me looking at the manga, especially after hearing/seeing the revy shower scene ;P

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

i think that hits Horo more than lawrence there. Its that line that has her finally put her guard down. Her whole thing has been worryin about getting hurt, trying to keep the memories where they were, or the 'luster' fading, or how hard the parting at the end will be. He's saying that the end of their journey may be sad, and you could get hurt, but that the actual journey is where the joy is. You have to risk getting hurt in order to actually gain any happiness. Thats how i view it anyway. It ties into his "its possible your wish wont be fullfilled. But if you dont wish at all, it definatly wont be fullfilled" line right before that

I agree, she broke down because Lawrence had stood up to her so bravely and made her realize the sheer depth of her folly. For a long time, her worldview was skewed to appear like a series of happy or sad events (festivals) and the time in between those was mostly empty and meaningless. She was still seeing the world that way, despite the fact that even if she traveled alone, time would still not seem like it was at Pasroe's wheat fields.

If that realization itself wasn't profound enough to move her to tears, there is also the fact that it was delivered as an act of extreme defiance by this guy she has come to care about, and at his own loss. He gave up his apparent dream (at least temporarily) just to be with her and to help her realize the above.

And what had she done in return? She abused him both emotionally and physically, immediately assuming the worst of him. He wasn't just being kind and protective of some child or pretty little thing he could flaunt around.. he was doing it because he genuinely loved her.

Cold, calculating merchant Lawrence just accepted a probable lose-lose situation, knowing precisely what he was getting into. He isn't even asking that much of her - just to be by her side and part on actually decent terms. She did not have to be alone on a sad journey home, despite her best efforts.

The cumulative effect of all of these things would be much stronger than just one of them, which is why I think she really broke down and shivered like a scared little puppy.

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

I think Bash is over analyzing what shes asking him to take responsibility for a bit
I think its as simple as her saying he will have to take responsibility that hes in a pretty much lose lose situation here that will most likely end badly

No doubt! I love to over-analyze and I'll be the first to admit it

Some people heard "wedding bells" at the end. I just figured that Horo must have another hidden reason for not accepting Lawrence in spite of all of this, and tried to fit the data into my hypothesis

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

is it abe or eve? I would think it would be Abe since the point was to hide shes a woman

I agree. How many dudes back then called themselves Eve? For that matter, how common was Arold compared to Harold in those days? (Not that Abe and Harold would be popular names in what appears to be medieval Germany, but still..)

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

so really the only thing im not very clear on is what the hell Abe was talking about with that 'hope' line. Her desire to chase after the money and just hoping it will make her happy just doesn't make sense, it seemed like she wanted to be anything BUT like her owner.

I got the impression that Abe knew how twisted she really was. She did tell Lawrence that she was sure he saw her as little better than the people she hated. I think she was so desperate that this was the only chance she thought she had to escape her current situation, and she could only hope that getting the money would make her feel better somehow (even though she knew it probably wouldn't).

Her ultimate plan just seemed to have no room for Lawrence, and that was why she ultimately wanted to kill him - she was probably good as dead if he backed out of the deal anyway. Harold is probably a necessary evil for her. He made leather products before he opened the inn, so it stands to reason that he might have some use in a fur-trading deal or what happens with that fur afterwards.

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

just an oddity. what was with the scene where lawrence is staring at his cart? Had he been robbed?

Where was this scene? I think I missed it..

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

which version are you guys keeping?

I prefer a fairly literal translation, so I'm keeping the Mazui releases (except where SFW seem better, but I haven't rewatched with theirs yet). Mazui also released their scripts, so you can modify anything you don't like if you're willing to go that far.

[Kafriel]

^ Your spoiler title kills your spoiler...
If I didn't know that this was THE final episode, I wouldn't even realize it. It definitely didn't feel overly dramatic or anything, just another conclusion to an arc. Lawrence is a great merchant, but he should really get a sword, or a knife. Getting robbed by a woman felt pathetic:P

[kenshin-dono]

yea.. the whole abe thing is still a grey area to me. Im still not really totally clear on what the hell she wanted. Maybe she doesn't either and thats why its so confusing

god damnit october, thnx for the spoiler, yeesh

the odd wagon scene im talking about is about the 7:00 mark in teh mazui sub. He stops and stares at his cart for a while and it looks odd.. was it robbed or is he just contemplating what hes going to do, load it up and leave or go confront abe and call it quits

[Hanfresco]

I see some comments saying Horo dragged an injured Lawrence into the middle of a rebellion. He got hit on the cheek bone. Big deal.

Regarding his cart, he's probably just taking a last look at it. He knows getting out of a chaotic town would require him to leave his horse and cart behind (I don't know if he had cargo from Kumerson). This is the horse and cart that he's journeyed in, ate in, and slept in for years, not to mention its where he met Holo. The cart holds so much that I think it's natural to take a last look.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Hanfresco

I see some comments saying Horo dragged an injured Lawrence into the middle of a rebellion. He got hit on the cheek bone. Big deal.

You're right in that it looks superficial, but he was coughing/sneezing up blood. I'm sure Horo would detect if the wound was major, but the point is that she's not relenting for even a second

She punched him pretty hard in that wound, nearly knocking him out, and then kicked him in the chest.. you'd think she would have the heart to let him rest a few more minutes before dragging him outside into the snow, a rebellion, and possibly onto a ship to chase Abe

My guess is that every minute counts, so ultimately it doesn't bother me. But it was rather funny to see her push Lawrence like that, and to see him go along with it like he expected it all along. Knowing Lawrence, he is probably very happy that she is doing this. I'm betting he is secretly thrilled that Horo is acting this way.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

You're right in that it looks superficial, but he was coughing/sneezing up blood. I'm sure Horo would detect if the wound was major, but the point is that she's not relenting for even a second

She punched him pretty hard in that wound, nearly knocking him out, and then kicked him in the chest.. you'd think she would have the heart to let him rest a few more minutes before dragging him outside into the snow, a rebellion, and possibly onto a ship to chase Abe

My guess is that every minute counts, so ultimately it doesn't bother me. But it was rather funny to see her push Lawrence like that, and to see him go along with it like he expected it all along. Knowing Lawrence, he is probably very happy that she is doing this. I'm betting he is secretly thrilled that Horo is acting this way.

Well I guess she didn't consider it so serious that she couldn't knock him around a little. Maybe she has put serious as the level he was hurt in the first season where he actually lost consciousness due to blood loss. At least he wasn't stabbed this time around.

[Attoney]

Man, Lawrence sure had it rough with the girls in this episode. First he got slapped by horo, then Abe tried to stab him multiple times. Got his face smashed by a hachet knife. Got punched by horo on the same place where he was hit with hachet knife. Then got a kick from horo, and then he was dragged though the streets by horo. And he endure this all in a single day, while wearing a smile on his face.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well I guess she didn't consider it so serious that she couldn't knock him around a little. Maybe she has put serious as the level he was hurt in the first season where he actually lost consciousness due to blood loss. At least he wasn't stabbed this time around.

I think so too. Besides, although she asked him to be greedy and selfish, she can't just reward him for it. His greed and selfishness resulting in an act of open defiance and was an attack on her status as alpha, after all

Originally Posted by Attoney

Man, Lawrence sure had it rough with the girls in this episode. First he got slapped by horo, then Abe tried to stab him multiple times. Got his face smashed by a hachet knife. Got punched by horo on the same place where he was hit with hachet knife. Then got a kick from horo, and then he was dragged though the streets by horo. And he endure this all in a single day, while wearing a smile on his face.

Our man Lawrence is clearly a bit of a masochist, and Abe and Horo seem to have a bit of sadist in them (Horo especially). I'd say "nudge nudge, wink wink" but I'm sure Eric Idle would have me shot :S

Seriously though, I'm impressed with how routinely he takes Horo's physical abuse and turns it completely around on her. Sure he got a slap, vicious punch to the face, and kick to the chest. But he openly defied her authority, forced her to continue traveling with him knowing that he loved her, dared to "kiss" her, and showed her how foolishly and unfairly she was acting in the first place. I'd say Horo got off far worse than he did this time around..

[BashZeStampeedo]

Whew.. Frostii's anti-Lawrence bias really comes across in episode 12 doesn't it? It's like they are actively trying to make him look bad. I wonder who is more correct? If Mazui's subs truly are more literal and "accurate", then Frostii's are starting to look like a parody by comparison.. (no that I didn't enjoy them)

Any thoughts from the crowd?

[Solafighter]

A kind of very calm end.
But still, a nice ending.
I like it so far.
Now, lets hope for a 3rd season!!

[kenshin-dono]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

Whew.. Frostii's anti-Lawrence bias really comes across in episode 12 doesn't it? It's like they are actively trying to make him look bad. I wonder who is more correct? If Mazui's subs truly are more literal and "accurate", then Frostii's are starting to look like a parody by comparison.. (no that I didn't enjoy them)

Any thoughts from the crowd?

is the frostii one out then? lol what did they do with their subs? i havent been liking their translations but i was waiting for them and SFW to release them before comparing them side by side then watching it all from ep 1 to see which is best (leanin to frostii now)

since im still waitin on sfw, what did frostii do to make lawrence look bad?

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

is the frostii one out then? lol what did they do with their subs? i havent been liking their translations but i was waiting for them and SFW to release them before comparing them side by side then watching it all from ep 1 to see which is best (leanin to frostii now)

since im still waitin on sfw, what did frostii do to make lawrence look bad?

Well, aside from changing "I love you" to "I like you", their choice of words tended to make him come across as more mean-spirited and clueless than Mazui's subs. I have nothing against them not liking Lawrence (after all, everyone loves Horo), but all together it made a pretty big difference in my perception of Lawrence (and him specifically).

Overall, if that trend continues in their other subs it might explain why some people have such a low opinion of his character. I'm stretching that line pretty thin, though, and I know it. I have no idea who watches what group's subs. I also don't have the time right now to re-watch the series, so I was curious if others feel Frostii is being unforgiving, or Mazui is being too forgiving.

Apart from a couple of tough-to-translate scenes, I found Mazui seemed to be doing a pretty good job this season. At least, their portrayal of Lawrence seemed to match my impressions for volume 3 of the novels (the first 6 episodes of the season). I have no idea about the second half of the season, so I'm trying to get others' impressions.

[kenshin-dono]

wow i just glanced at a couple of the key scenes, that one at the end and the scene at the start with the conversation ont he docks.

simply changing the I love you line to i like you is fail in my book. I also noticed the translation is different. In the scene near the beginning that i always found confusing, by teh docks:

theyre kinda different in general
frostii
L: If this deal succeeds and i become a town merchant, you'll bid me farewell after words of blessing. If this deal fails,you'll be disgusted by my ineptitude and become a wolf again, abandoning me for being unworthy of you, and then you'll head to your homeland
Therefore, the only way i can keep traveling with you is to call off the deal.
And i know you'll say 'dont give up everything just too..
H: just to bet on such a small chance.
l:that's why i didn't want to tell you
H: do you really think that way?
L:yes
H: and you think i'd be happy to hear that?"
L: I dont
*slap*
H: i wont say im happy. I'll never say im sorry.
L: that completely destroyed any chance of us traveling together. this is what you wanted isn't it?
*Horo looks very hurt/sad opens mouth to say something*
H:I'll remember you as a calculating cold hearted fellow
L:lets go
*they get to the place they will sell her for colateral horo is crying*
H:i'm sure god doesnt' exist in this world. If there really is this god almighty that you humans speak of, then why does he only watch quietly as we suffer

mazui
L: if the deal goes well and i become a successful merchant, you'll congratulate me then bid me farewell.
And if the deal goes bad, you wouldn't stand being sold, so you'd transform into a wolf and abandon your useless companion so you could return home.
In other words, the only way i can continue traveling with you is to throw away this chance. Im sure your going to tell me, "Dont throw it all away--
H: "--just to gamble on a single thread of hope"
L:"Thats why i didn't want to say"
H:is that what you really think?
L: yes
H: that id be happy with that?
L:yes
*Horo slaps lawrence*
H: I wont say im happy. But i definitely wont say im sorry
L: With this, our chances of traveling together any farther have completely vanished. This is what you wished for, right?
*Horo looks very hurt/sad opens mouth to say something*
H: I will remember you as a c alculating, cool-headed merchant
L: shall we go?
*they get to the place they will sell her for colateral horo is crying*
H: if there is an all powerfull god like they say, why does he let us suffer so much?

It looks like they do make lawrence sound worse there, and changing i dont to yes kinda changes the intent. It makes it seem like he totally knows at that point that she wants to stay with him but is just messing with her to be a dick.

Im going to rewatch all 3 versions back to back *yeesh thatll take a while* when sfw's is out so i should have a better idea by then of which one i want to keep, but i would probably say that frostii does let their hatred of lawrence color their subs.

honestly this scene still seems awkward to me and still doesn't make much sense with either translation. I know shes supposedly pushing him away from her so he can realize his dream and because shes scared of getting close to him and finishing their journey, but good lord the part near the end its so obvious she doesn't want to say goodbye, shes speechless, then in tears! it just doesn't make much sense

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

Im going to rewatch all 3 versions back to back *yeesh thatll take a while* when sfw's is out so i should have a better idea by then of which one i want to keep, but i would probably say that frostii does let their hatred of lawrence color their subs.

Yeah, I agree. I'm planning on doing the same. On one hand, viewing Lawrence as more of a jerk makes it easier to view Horo as less of a jerk. But on the other hand there are already enough issues with this season; if neither character grew I might as well write the whole thing off as filler.

It also confuses me since Horo seemed really torn by how selflessly kind he was in the first season. Did his character really change that much as he realized he "liked" her?

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

honestly this scene still seems awkward to me and still doesn't make much sense with either translation. I know shes supposedly pushing him away from her so he can realize his dream and because shes scared of getting close to him and finishing their journey, but good lord the part near the end its so obvious she doesn't want to say goodbye, shes speechless, then in tears! it just doesn't make much sense

Brace yourself, it's time for another of my long-winded over-analyses

Assuming she hasn't been lying or hiding some darker truth, or that I haven't missed something, I only have one interpretation - she's just a total basket case. Regardless of what has screwed her up this badly, she's a wreck. We'll have to wait to find out whether there is a sympathetic reason for it, but she's too damn cute to not sympathize with anyway.

She has irrational fears of commitment. She appears to want to get closer to Lawrence, but is scared they will start to grow apart. She has shown signs of this before as early as the first OVA where early-on she changed the mood so he "wouldn't get tired of her". To me, that's a sure sign of emotional baggage.

But she wants Lawrence badly enough to tease him in subtle ways, no matter how cruel it is. She's punishes him harshly for the slightly (perceived) breach of loyalty, but can't openly give him a sure sign that she wants him. Of course all of this backfires horribly because he is understandably confused and also starts to get snarky with her as he starts to emulate her better.

In retrospect it seemed like she had a panic attack because she was worried that she was screwing him up (ie, she cares about him, but makes the wrong choice). Unfortunately her fight-or-flight instincts went the wrong way to "flight". She seems to confirm that in the end ("you defied my foolishness with everything you had").

Lawrence is lucky that he has the patience of a saint. He needed just the right conditions to convince Horo. If he was impatient he might have blurted out the wrong words, or angrily said something he'd regret. Even worse, he might have set her into a panic by appearing insincere - he had to remind her of his willingness to sacrifice everything for her because she's always worried that he doesn't take her seriously. On a more personal note, of course, he also had to figure out whether she was really worth all the aggravation.

Because he didn't rush things, he ended up in a good position to confess everything and demonstrate that he was serious. She still fought against everything he said in that final speech (he chose her, confessed his love, etc etc). It wasn't until he made it clear that he was willing to wait for her to figure herself out that she finally broke down into tears - at least that's how I perceived it. Even then she kept hinting that he would take responsibility for it.

[kenshin-dono]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

Yeah, I agree. I'm planning on doing the same. On one hand, viewing Lawrence as more of a jerk makes it easier to view Horo as less of a jerk. But on the other hand there are already enough issues with this season; if neither character grew I might as well write the whole thing off as filler.

It also confuses me since Horo seemed really torn by how selflessly kind he was in the first season. Did his character really change that much as he realized he "liked" her?

i watched the later part with both frostii and mazui back to back but not the start or sfw. All side by side should help me chose which to keep and maybe clear some stuff up, but i always kinda disliked the feel of frostiis. Other than their translation in ep 00 missing the whole point of the end, i just felt that some of the regular translations were a bit cleaner/clearer in the frostii one, but the important scenes seemed off.

Brace yourself, it's time for another of my long-winded over-analyses

Assuming she hasn't been lying or hiding some darker truth, or that I haven't missed something, I only have one interpretation - she's just a total basket case. Regardless of what has screwed her up this badly, she's a wreck. We'll have to wait to find out whether there is a sympathetic reason for it, but she's too damn cute to not sympathize with anyway.

lol maybe thats the best explination. That scene near the begining is just confusing to me, even with both those translations. The extreme schitzo form of that conversation and the back and forth of what the hell she wants would be explained easily by just saying 'shes a total basket case' =P

She has irrational fears of commitment. She appears to want to get closer to Lawrence, but is scared they will start to grow apart. She has shown signs of this before as early as the first OVA where early-on she changed the mood so he "wouldn't get tired of her". To me, that's a sure sign of emotional baggage.
*snip*

In retrospect it seemed like she had a panic attack because she was worried that she was screwing him up (ie, she cares about him, but makes the wrong choice). Unfortunately her fight-or-flight instincts went the wrong way to "flight". She seems to confirm that in the end ("you defied my foolishness with everything you had").

screwing him up? hmm i dunno. I almost view it as her just realizing this whole idea is stupid and she really doesn't want to do this. Maybe she realizes there that shes using it all as an excuse because shes scared of being hurt. *shrug* again, i dont know the whole scene is confusing with both translations. Its really odd that Lawrence didn't push the issue when she started losing it near the end too.


also him replying with 'i dont' in the mazui version vs 'yes' in the frostii is rather important If he replied with 'i dont' then that insinuates he really isn't understanding that she doesn't truly want this and is trying to do it 'for his sake' although its really just something shes using as an excuse to avoid getting any closer to him.

However, if he did reply with 'yes' then that shows that he is AWARE that she really doesn't want this and his lines after the resulting slap would be pretty messed up. Just him intentionally trying to hurt her. Hence the reason i do think frostii is letting their hatred of lawrence color their subs. Switching NO for YES is a pretty big change though. i really need to know what he says there

Its that whole turn around at the end that makes this scene preplexing as hell to me. she goes from stoic and determined to miserable with it painted everywhere that this isn't what she wants. How lawrence really percieved that and why she still remained so stubborn are what confuses me.

blea maybe i'll just go with 'shes a basket case' lol

on a side note, have you guys checked out the manga? DAMN im digging it more than the anime. It seems quite a bit more graphic. Horo seems far more sexy than just cute. And shes certainly drawn.. err 'perkier' in the chest region. Even lawrence looks hotter and all cut. The scene near the begining is totally different, where they dry off after getting soaked

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/wolf_a...01/c003/8.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/wolf_a...01/c003/9.html

yowza! horo looks very hot all wet and slick like that. I certainly dont remember that in the anime. Or lawrence getting naked! (butt shot for the ladies too lol)

and this scene?
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/wolf_a...1/c003/11.html

christ, shes practically bent over the table o_O Her shaking her tail was a quick tame comedy bit in the anime if i remember right

even her initial howl is sexier. In the anime she just stood up and howled. here she arches her back bends down. Its much more erotic
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/wolf_a...1/c001/28.html

i was just planning on reading the novels but now i guess i'll check the manga out too

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

screwing him up? hmm i dunno. I almost view it as her just realizing this whole idea is stupid and she really doesn't want to do this.

I felt that way until after she slapped him. At that point I felt like she didn't want to do this, especially when she started crying and whining about there being no God etc etc. That's precisely when I thought "ok, she's officially a basket case".

What I meant by "screwing him up" is that she's clearly trying desperately to leave him on good terms by getting him his dream at whatever cost. But it doesn't feel like she's doing it just to get him to abandon her. She seemed genuinely worried for his sake in the last episode or two. I didn't mean she wasn't also being selfish, but I still think that she really does care for the blockhead.

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

him replying with 'i dont' in the mazui version vs 'yes' in the frostii is rather important

I agree, let's see what others translate it to. You'd think I could figure out what he's saying there with a little elbow grease, but I'm just not that sharp after a 16 hour shift.

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

Its that whole turn around at the end that makes this scene preplexing as hell to me. she goes from stoic and determined to miserable with it painted everywhere that this isn't what she wants. How lawrence really percieved that and why she still remained so stubborn are what confuses me.

I can't figure out what Lawrence is thinking there until volume 5 is translated, but he's clearly having a really tough time deciding what to do (regardless of what the translation is). If it was me I would have a tough time as well - she's not easy to put up with and rarely gives him an inch in their "relationship". I didn't really get the vibe that he really was going to go through with it, until she slapped him.

Besides, she's not kidding that he's close to his literal dream. I would have a tough time figuring out which one is more important to me as well. She's cute as hell, but she's no regular human girl. It could take years for her to sort out her issues, and she's already implied how slim the chance is that she'll reciprocate. The fact that he's still there is already impressive to me, given that he is clearly a greedy and profit-driven individual.

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

i was just planning on reading the novels but now i guess i'll check the manga out too

Yeah, this is one of those rare series where I actually want to view all three. I can't wait for the manga, it looks splendid. You are right though, Horo is quite the erotic character in the manga! Heck, even Lawrence seems to be a lot less shy..